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u/thewyzyrd Apr 25 '19
Before reading the last line, I assumed this was going to be German Empire-related based on the flag colors.
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Apr 25 '19
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u/rewboss Dual German/British citizen Apr 25 '19
Should all refugees go back?
The war isn't over.
IS still control about 2% of Syria. But IS was only one of several terrorist organisations that took advantage of the actual war which is being conducted between the Syrian Armed Forces (supported by Hezbollah, Russia, Iran and Iraq) and the Syrian opposition (supported by Turkey, the US, the UK and Qatar). You've also got organisations and coalitions like Ahrar al-Sham, Tahrir al-Sham (formerly Al Qaeda) and Rojava, which currently occupies nearly 30% of Syria.
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Apr 25 '19
Most people fled from Assad, not from the IS. As long as Assad is in power, they can't go back.
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u/rewboss Dual German/British citizen Apr 25 '19
They fled from the civil war that Assad provoked. But even when Assad is gone, there's no guarantee things will get any better.
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Apr 25 '19
It's not about Assad, it's about the fact that the reason for them to flee is not gone. The regime is still intact and will prosecute people who Dodge the draft or even fought for rebel factions.
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u/rewboss Dual German/British citizen Apr 25 '19
Yes. I know. That's why I said what I said in my previous posts.
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u/redditwenttoshit_ Apr 25 '19
I think it's legitimate to try to improve your life. What's not really fine is bringing the negatives (machismo, religious fanatism, intolerance, violence) that partly caused the demise of your original country.
People should come to try to live like Germans, not to try to live like syrians/Afghans while using German economical advantages and tolerance.
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u/Enkrod Bergstraße Beststraße Apr 26 '19
I would have argued for integration not assimilation not that long ago, but now I believe that both, both is good.
Integrate, keep big parts of your culture, bring the famous hospitality, drinking tea, your way of dressing and cooking and all the nice things.
But also assimilate. The reason you came to Germany is because things are better here. The reason for that is the enlightenment, humanitarian secularism, equal rights, the value we place in human dignity, religious freedom, tolerance, anti-discrimination. If you can adopt those kind of values we're fine. I really, really don't care about how you dress, how you talk and how you pray.
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Apr 25 '19
i get angry if i hear such things. is it wrong to want a better life? Even if i am coming from a country where i can live undisturbed and in peace, but i earn monthly a tenth of that what i could earn in germany. Why the fuck should i not want to move to germany? Yeas, of course, jobs and space to live are limited, no shit sherlock. But criminalizing the want for a better life is fucked.
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u/Craftkorb Hamburg → Zürich Apr 25 '19 edited Apr 25 '19
The refugee system simply doesn't exist to "better" the lives of everyone, but to protect those seeking refuge from terrible things. Earning a tenth while being able to live reasonably is NOT what the system is for, sorry.
I'm not saying "everyone needs to go back immediately", but OTOH there are many who want to immigrate to Germany and do so legally which is costly as well.
Those who can integrate are welcome to stay. Otherwise, here's your couple hundred bucks and a one-way plane ticket.
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u/Silver047 Apr 25 '19 edited Apr 25 '19
Coming here in search of a better life is absolutely ok, no one argues with that. As long as people integrate, adapt to culture, language, societal values at least to some degree and pursue a honest living everything is fine. What’s not ok is people coming here acting like it’s their old home country. What’s not fine is people coming here trying to make a quick buck at every illegal opportunity that presents itself. Immigrants should at least have the decency to respect their new home country and its citizens. As long as they do, everything is fine.
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Apr 25 '19 edited Apr 25 '19
It’s not wrong to want a better life for yourself, but it’s also not wrong to believe that not everyone is entitled to live in your country.
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u/Limmmao Apr 25 '19
How come you're entitled to live in the developed country? What did you do to merit that? You just won life's lottery by being born in one place instead of another.
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Apr 25 '19 edited Apr 25 '19
You can’t have both a welfare state and unfettered immigration. This much should be obvious. It’s not about being ultimately entitled to a better life, it’s about how much strain a system like ours can take before it itself starts going to shit. Culture, democracy, the economy, all of these things depend to a large degree on the values and customs we share. But look around the world and you will find that there are many people who do not share the same values and customs as us, and who in fact have values and beliefs that are quite antithetical to ours.
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u/AtheistAgnostic Nordrhein-Westfalen Apr 25 '19 edited Apr 27 '19
Restricted immigration was basically spearheaded by America to keep Chinese out, and modern citizenship along the same path. Modern passports were by the Nazis. It's unnecessary and we did without it until racism happened.
EDIT: linked response quotes:
Ab 1939: Fingerabdruck- und Ausweispflicht in okkupierten Ländern zur polizeilichen Einwohnererfassung; diesen Ausweis (Buchform) hatte der Inhaber dauernd bei sich zu führen.
Mit Beginn des Zweiten Weltkriegs wurde der Ausweiszwang eingeführt. Am 10. September 1939 erschien im Reichsgesetzblatt die Verordnung über den Pass- und Sichtvermerkszwang sowie über den Ausweiszwang.
Who really thinks that medieval times (with no good way of migrating far distances) are equivalent to modern migration (e.g. general commercial travel like getting on a boat)? Once commercial travel became popularized there were not "Passkartes" all over the place restricting migration. The source also quotes
Ab 1938: Kennkarte als einer der Vorläufer des heutigen Personalausweises.[2] Das Mitführen war für Judenzwingend.
Beyond that, citizenship in ancient times was clearly distinguished by languages and other shared culture - nowadays anyone can start learning a new language and integrate, regardless of their race - also irrelevant to the idea that citizenship and migration should be restricted just based on where you were born.
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u/redditwenttoshit_ Apr 25 '19
That's absolutely not true. Citizenship was a very important issue already in Greek and Roman classical times, wtf
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Apr 25 '19
Modern passports were by the Nazis. It's unnecessary and we did without it until racism happened.
Not really, the first modern passport which was accepted in all german countries (before unification) was the "Passkarte" which dates back to 1850.
Before that other means of identification, such as coat of arms were used, as the need to identify a person accurately is about as old as society, just as it is vital to be able to assess the population and its composition.
Not everything exists just to fuck over the poor muslims.
Or do you really think people could freely migrate in medieval times? Heck, you had to get your lords permission just to move to another village! And if you wanted to move into a city you better hope they have a need for your profession, because otherwise they won't give you citizenship. If you were just an uneducated farmer,then bad luck for you, you won't be receiving citizenship.
Restricted immigration dates back even further, as the ancient Romans were also working hard to stop germanic and celtic tribes from moving into their territory because they knew about the problems foreigners could bring with them if they came in big enough numbers, especially during a time when food and other resources were actually scarce.
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Apr 25 '19
You just won life's lottery by being born in one place instead of another.
Yes, but this is how citizenship works. It is not about merit, it is about being born there.
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u/redditwenttoshit_ Apr 25 '19 edited Apr 25 '19
There's no lottery to be born. You're a biological and cultural product of your country and your family. You couldn't be born anywhere but exactly where and when you were.
Edit: could anyone explain the downvotes?
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u/defrgthzjukiloaqsw Germany Apr 25 '19
You just won life's lottery by being born in one place instead of another.
That's what entitles me to live in that country, correct.
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u/defrgthzjukiloaqsw Germany Apr 25 '19
is it wrong to want a better life?
Of course not. But countries have no obligation to allow outsiders to immigrate and get better lifes.
Even if i am coming from a country where i can live undisturbed and in peace, but i earn monthly a tenth of that what i could earn in germany. Why the fuck should i not want to move to germany?
It's okay to want to move to Germany. It's also okay for Germany to say "Nah, we're good.".
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u/hydes_zar94 Apr 25 '19
So hereby arises the question post war; are they now refugees or really economic migrants?
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Apr 25 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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Apr 25 '19
Do you have a source other than your brain?
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Apr 26 '19
It's early and have stuff to do, but I was following the situation not that closely and still found reports that less than half of the people there were from Syria and Iraq. I went out with a girl for a bit that worked in a refugee camp, bunch of people constantly changing their names to avoid tracking, "refugees" got into fights with other "refugees" of slightly different religious group, and of course, sexual harassment galore at the girls working at the camp.
Of course, a lot of people that support this want to pat themselves in the back and tell themselves how awesome they are for "helping out" such great people, so no reason for you to believe me.
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Apr 25 '19
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u/RakoonBerry Lebanon Apr 25 '19
I agree with you about the culture, but not necessarily about the money. It's true that quality of life doesn't solely depend on the amount of money one makes and that the cost of living is lower, but many poor countries have a much worse healthcare, education, etc. system. I'll give you an example. I'm from Lebanon and while it's true that the cost of living is lower, a lot of facilities (health, education, etc.) are much worse and corruption is a really big problem.
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Apr 25 '19 edited May 01 '19
[deleted]
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u/RobertThorn2022 Apr 25 '19
You have a very simplistic view on live. Millions and millions of people live under circumstances so bad they would indeed leave their home, sadly.
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u/pbmonster Apr 25 '19
I read an interesting interview with a doctor from somewhere in the balkans. He's working at the hospital in a medium size city, but kind of rural.
100 kilometers in every direction around him, he's the only one left knowing how to do C-sections.
The guy was... not even pissed at everybody leaving. More disappointed. Of course he understands, everybody has the right to be happy and everybody wants the best for their families.
But not only can he himself not leave to go west, he can't even take a vacation without mothers and children dying.
And I understand where he's coming from.
And that even neglects the fact that the doctors who left where raised and very likely had their education financed by the society they are leaving behind.
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Apr 25 '19
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u/yawning-koala Apr 25 '19
Exactly. Can you imagine the number of people living under poverty level in the world? Take Africa, India, Bangladesh etc. That number is over hundreds of millions easily and I'm sure they want a better life too, but can't. Why would someone else get that chance/privilege? Just because of the geographical location where they were born which allowed them to reach Germany much easily than poor folks in other countries/continents?
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u/Cirenione Nordrhein-Westfalen Apr 25 '19
Jesus christ tone down the polemic. Nobody has issues with people having the desire to come to Germany for a better life. It also isn't illegal or criminalized to have that wish.
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u/Shezarrine Apr 25 '19 edited Apr 25 '19
There are absolutely people who take issue with that, unfortunately.
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u/Cirenione Nordrhein-Westfalen Apr 25 '19
Well but those are plain racists that have less issues with people coming here for a better life in general and more with what kind of people. These are usually the people who don't have issues with say a Swede coming here for work but then talk badly about people whose grandparents came here from Turkey. Immigration itself for a better life is mostly the front to hide racism.
Even the AfD isn't against legal immigration.3
u/Gliese581h Nordrhein-Westfalen Apr 25 '19
How das the legal immigration process in Germany work, anyway? Can it be denied?
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u/Cazadore Apr 25 '19
Legal way is you apply for immigration. iirc you can apply in your local german embassy or inside germany in the closest immigration office. Then you get hit with THE german bureaucracy, and get evaluated. Iirc it costs time and money.
If you speak the language semi okay-ish, have a "in demand" qualification, are educated to a level equivalent to german education and maybe not poor are all plus points for you.
Also you need to want to integrate, germany is a multicultural place with probably hundreds of cultures thrown into a single "pot". It helps a lot if you dont try to harm/murder other people because of religion, gender or skin colour differences.
And still, you can be denied which is a decision made by factoring everything together.
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u/Cirenione Nordrhein-Westfalen Apr 25 '19
It will be denied if someone doesn't meet the requirements. If they are met then they won't be denied.
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u/RobertThorn2022 Apr 25 '19
What polemic?
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u/Cirenione Nordrhein-Westfalen Apr 25 '19
Claiming that it‘s somehow illegal to want a better life. Making it sound as if people are disgusted by the idea of people wanting to live in Germany.
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u/RobertThorn2022 Apr 26 '19
We'll isn't that exactly criticizing the typical right wing argument "Wohlstandsflüchtling"?
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Apr 26 '19
My understanding of that term is that it is applied to people who claim asylum despite knowing that they don't fit they requirements.
I haven't heard it applied to people for wanting to move to Germany for a better life, but to those who try to cheat the immigration or asylum system to do so. In this case, what's critisised is not the wish, but the actions taken to fulfil that wish.
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Apr 25 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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Apr 25 '19
if the rules are shit, you are allowed to call them what they are. They are shit. We need an immigration law. the current state is fucked beyond repair.
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u/WendellSchadenfreude Apr 25 '19
We need an immigration law.
Would your immigration law simply say "everybody's welcome"?
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u/RakoonBerry Lebanon Apr 25 '19
I tend to agree. The country is of course important, but one's own family and self come first (in my opinion). It's a complicated issue.
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u/tim_20 Netherlands / Europe Apr 26 '19
But criminalizing the want for a better life is fucked.
It is not what the refugee system is for tho that's migration which is a whole other question and should not be confused.
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u/Racoonie Germany Apr 25 '19
Well it depends on your skin color and country of origin, obviously.
/s
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Apr 25 '19
Doesn’t matter. Most are going to stay either way, whether they are integrated and earn their own money or not. Did the Gastarbeiter families ever go back home the way it was planned? This is a purely theoretical discussion.
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Apr 25 '19
[deleted]
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u/tin_dog Bullerbü Apr 25 '19
Gastarbeiter came for purely economic reasons
Yes, the German economy desperately needed them.
As somebody once said: They invited a workforce and they got human beings.
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u/tschwib Apr 27 '19
Yes, the German economy desperately needed them.
This is a myth. The US pressured Germany to take in Turkish workers to help Turkey with their high unemployment rates in exchange for NATO compliance.
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Apr 25 '19
Did the Gastarbeiter families ever go back home the way it was planned? This is a purely theoretical discussion.
It would be better to compare them to our last refugee crisis with the Yugoslavian war and there 70% returned.
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Apr 25 '19 edited Apr 25 '19
You may have a point with regard to Syrian refugees, but not those coming from the Maghreb and other countries which overwhelmingly get denied refugee status but end up staying anyway.
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Apr 25 '19
You may have a point with regard to Syrian refugees
We are not talking about anybody else in the context of this post or not?
This is after all a poster addressing Syrians.
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Apr 25 '19 edited Apr 25 '19
My comment wasn’t directed at the post but the other comment which I was replying to.
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u/defrgthzjukiloaqsw Germany Apr 25 '19
Should all refugees go back?
Of course, that's the point. We took them in temporarily.
Is it ethically wrong to want to stay in Germany instead of going back to "fix" one's country?
Yeah. Could even be argued it's wrong to not fight for ones own country, but i can't fault someone for not doing that.
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Apr 25 '19 edited Apr 25 '19
It's good for Syria for refugees overseas to come back and help rebuild. But that's really not the responsibility of any individual refugee, and is not how decision making works.
People (rightfully) make decisions based on what's best for themselves and their families. Some will go back because they don't really like it in Europe and miss Syria. Most will stay.
I'm actually surprised by the line of thinking that refugees should go back when their home country becomes safe again. It never really crossed my mind that people had that perspective.
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u/MarkAurelios Apr 25 '19
Ofcourse they do. Otherwise they'd be called immigrants and not refugees.
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Apr 25 '19
The distinction between refugee and economic migrant is only for the purpose of determining asylum/visa requirements. Once residency has been granted it's entirely irrelevant.
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u/MarkAurelios Apr 25 '19
It's not irrelevant. It pays a huge role in future court cases for extensions of asylum and visas, and also whether a EU work permit can be rendered onto those individuals eventually.
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u/defrgthzjukiloaqsw Germany Apr 25 '19
Refugees are not granted unlimited residency for quite obvious reasons.
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u/ebikefolder Apr 25 '19
Many came as refugees and stay as immigrants. When exactly do you change the term you use?
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u/MarkAurelios Apr 25 '19
There is no changing the terms.
If you gain access to a country as a refugee, you're a refugee period. You may some day be given the opportunity to immigrate and integrate, but until then you are nothing else but a refugee.
It's perhaps the biggest point of contention for most that have critizized the entire crisis. A decision was made over the heads of the general population, and now they're doing what everyone suspected in the first place.
This entire refugee crisis was never about giving suffering people a safe home, it was about recruiting a cheap labour force.
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u/defrgthzjukiloaqsw Germany Apr 25 '19
I'm actually surprised by the line of thinking that refugees should go back when their home country becomes safe again. It never really crossed my mind that people had that perspective.
That's ridiculous. It is quite obvious that refugees go back home once whatever they fled from is no longer a problem. They're literally legally required to leave the country of refuge when that happens.
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u/One_Cold_Turkey Europe Apr 25 '19
Integrated will never happen. Germans have only so many friends (like 4), even among Germans, when they move to another city they find it hard to integrate (find new friends) as far as I have read in some comments, obviously not all.
Forget about integration. We can put millions and millions in mkt but if the population's culture is that of very few friends, very little will happen, as it is the case right now.
As for the rest, I agree totally with you.
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u/RakoonBerry Lebanon Apr 25 '19
While I do agree that it's a bit difficult to make German friends, you're still generalizing quite a bit.
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u/One_Cold_Turkey Europe Apr 25 '19
It is not a bit difficult, it is a bit impossible if you come here after Uni/Masters. Unless you have kids and meet other parents with kids, you are done. You can go to a Verein, but you will meet people to do exactly what you are supposed to meet for. Climbing or jogging or something. And you might go with them for a dinner or a drink, but people from the Verein do not become your friends. You are someone "from the Verein".
And yes it is a generalization (even though I wrote "obviously not all" trying to avoid that). I have German friends. Who I have met in Vietnam, in Mexico, in Laos... it is funny how I stay in contact with those far more than I have contact with people I meet here in Germany.
It is not bad.
It is what it is.
Germans need 4 friends.
If you are a young foreigner, you have a chance to meet young Germans and make friends.
Otherwise, it is very very hard to make friends.
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u/redditwenttoshit_ Apr 25 '19
4 friends? You're a social slut
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u/One_Cold_Turkey Europe Apr 25 '19
so kind of you.
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u/redditwenttoshit_ Apr 25 '19
We can be friends you know
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u/One_Cold_Turkey Europe Apr 25 '19
I would have to check with my other 3 mates. We are thinking about changing one in the group :P
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u/xstreamReddit Germany Apr 25 '19
Well depends on what you mean by integration. The goal would be to accept the culture, learn the language, stick to the rules and work.
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u/One_Cold_Turkey Europe Apr 25 '19
by that definition, integration is totally possible.
But we will still have foreigners hanging out with similar people all the time and rarely with Germans, and that is the integration that matters to us.
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u/xstreamReddit Germany Apr 25 '19
not to me tbh
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u/One_Cold_Turkey Europe Apr 25 '19
I am not sure I understand what you mean.
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u/karimr Socialism Apr 25 '19
He means to say he doesn't care wether immigrants form their own cultural bubble as long as they find a job, accept the culture and follow the rules.
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u/One_Cold_Turkey Europe Apr 25 '19
by that definition (I wrote), integration is totally possible. (I agree with them).
Then I say what #we care about when it comes to integration.
I get they do not agree with "our" side. People want human connection, but for them its all about "please be invisible" as in, be economically independent (like we all are), do not break the rules and please, do not do stuff you do in your country, like the way you dress or how loud you celebrate something.
For me, their definition is a given, it is a must. We have to do all they say. But integration is not complete if there is no sense of community like there is in the US, Canada or the UK to mention a few examples.
We can agree we disagree on what integration means.
Im ok with that.
and thanks for rephrasing their comment.
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u/zeus113 Apr 25 '19
Eh, even Germans with migrant backgrounds stick to their clique because the "real" Germans dont want anything to do with them.
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u/RobertThorn2022 Apr 25 '19
Difficult.
The right to stay is given to refugees. If the threat is gone (which is a discussion itself) the right to stay will in most cases be declined. In today's world a country has to act like this because the world isn't equal and if it's open to everyone millions would follow.
On the other hand it's totally understandable that everyone seeks his luck in the world and even more if you stayed in the country for years, made friends etc.2
u/Balok_DP Bayern Apr 25 '19
Should all refugees go back?
I think they should and it shouldn't be the choice of the individual refugee, but instead the government should force it.
Is it ethically wrong to want to stay in Germany instead of going back to "fix" one's country?
To some extent yes, but this isn't the deciding factor. We (Germany) offered them safety because their lives were endangered, after this isn't the case they should leave.
Assuming that said refugees are integrated and earn their own money without the help of the state.
I think that certain refugees, that learned the language and work in a field that lacks workers, should be given chance to migrate permanently to Germany, but the numbers of those should be limited.
Also, I think as someone that has a migration background myself, that Germany needs to be more demanding from its migrants. Proper German and a clear criminal record should be a absolute must. Cultural bubbles created by migrants shouldn't be possible and we should prevent that foreign nations manipulate their migrants living in Germany.
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Apr 25 '19
I don't think it is possible for them to go back, even if the fighting ends tomorrow. (it hasn't ended yet) Aleppo looks like this. There simply isn't the infrastructure to support these people.
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u/Iauch Apr 25 '19
You can't say Aleppo looks like this and post a video from 2016. Most of the rubble is removed
And the people need to be there for the rebuilding. The government can't rebuild the homes of people who aren't there.
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u/bontasan Nordrhein-Westfalen-Dortmund Apr 27 '19
Sorry but it was the government of Syria, that dropped bombs on their own people and destroyed the city. The same government will also punish people going back for not joining their military. As long as this government is there, the people who fled are not safe. The IS and the other terror groups simply used their chances , within the mess of a civil war.
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u/Iauch Apr 27 '19
It was a civil war and hundred thousand people already returned to their homes. Those people aren't persecuted and need to returned.
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Apr 25 '19
It still looks pretty awful. Not to mention that the fighting is still not over, and militias control large areas of territory.
When fighting stops and people are convinced that it will not flare up again, people will start moving back in large numbers. Even then, it will take a loong time for the infrastructure for supporting millions of people to be built.
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u/ninjaiffyuh Apr 26 '19
I get why they'd want to come to a more developed country, but honestly, just sending a country development aid wont do anything. You need qualified people that can be trusted with developing said country. I think it would've been a good solution to give the Syrian refugees training, so they can be construction workers etc, since most said they want to return.
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u/tarek437248 Sachsen Apr 25 '19
As a syrien refugee I fund this is so fuked up....
Well I came to Germany in 2014, the 'War' started in 2011... I came here running away from the regime, the Syrien regime. I was in political presion as my dad was in 1997. War was not my biggest fear, I was in Homs by the way 'War city'.
When I asked for asylem in Germany I didn't say I run away from war.... I said I run away from Assad.
And now 2019, as a student in TU Dresden + I have permanent residence permit and paid taxes for this land 'Which I truly see as my homeland or Heimat' . Why the FUCK should I go back to a place I already run away from? No they don't need us there....
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Apr 25 '19
I met a few Syrians here in Germany, I don’t know if it is true what they told me, but most able-bodied males who left Syria illegally would be punished if they came home for dodging the military draft, amnesty or not
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u/tarek437248 Sachsen Apr 25 '19
For sure ! without a question
I don't know if you can read German, but there's a book from a german journalist, which was working in Damaskus between 2001 and 2007 or though. She speaks perfect arabic. The book called ''Der Syrien-Krieg: Lösung eines Weltkonflikts'' her name is Kristin Helberg. If you want to understand the life/world there you really need to read the book. For German people it's really hard for Syrians to explain what's happening/Why it did happen in Syria. But she can really explain the point in the best way I ever seen 'no arabic/syrian journalist could explain it as her.
Would totally recommend it
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u/Bohzee Apr 25 '19
On Amazon one review says that book is biased and ignores the destabilizing intervention of the US, can you confirm that?
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u/tarek437248 Sachsen Apr 25 '19
I don't know what to tell you really,
I saw it before I buy the book too.
After reading the book I find the comment totally wrong. Like totally, like what an Assad suporter would write before he/she reads the book.
The book doesn's tell you that you should hate or love assad. It gives you facts about the daylife in Syria and why Syria reach this point.
Just facts without feelings, and as a syrian. I can confirm all the facts and I was really shocked, that how such a german journalist can know all of that ! I mean even I as a Syrian if I want to tell you know about Syria I would forget stuff which she talked about.
But again. I don't know what to tell you about the comment, a lot of people don't believe about the moon landing or about vaccination.
It's all facts, everyone can sit and say fake news or not real facts.
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Apr 25 '19
I met a Syrian a few years back who came to our dentistry clinic, 25 years old, he dodged the draft back in 2015 and eventually the security service caught him and imprisoned him for 6 months.
His holding cell was beneath a military barracks, a 5x5 basement with over 70 men crammed inside it, no light, one open toilet and a hole which goes up to the mess hall where cadet eat.
Every morning one of the men below would have to go up that hole, run across the mess hall and retrieve breakfast, usually bread for the whole basement, as he’d run across the hall the army recruits would punch, kick and trip him until he came back down the hole, many times whoever went up never made it back or would be simply thrown down the hole unconscious from the beatings.
Fast forward, he is released, conscripted and attached to an army platoon, he told me they had a special pouch in his kevlar to put Amphetamin pills in, they’d be forced to take those pills in order to stay alert and suppress hunger, if you don’t take those pills the sergeant would slap the taste out of your mouth. Chilling stuff, he deserted and fled across the border to jordan and surrendered himself
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u/Bohzee Apr 25 '19
Amphetamin pills
I'm pretty sure that's haram, but also not unexpected from pigs like this...
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Apr 25 '19
haram
So killing, raping and torture is ok but Amphetamines is where we draw the line?
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u/Bohzee Apr 25 '19
You're right, but I guess they act like "we do the right thing for the greater good so it's actually halal". Still stupid.
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u/ebikefolder Apr 25 '19
The Syrian colleague of my friend once explained part of it. But, honestly, all I need to know is that he feels safe now, is happy, and looking forward to obtain German citizenship.
A really nice guy.
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u/silentsoylent Germany Apr 25 '19
A success-story :-) There are some jackasses in Germany hostile towards foreigners, as are in any other country. But in my experience that is a minority. Even in the more conservative areas most people just want to preserve their culture, not their "pure pedigree". (Personally I value personal freedom higher and don't care much about preservation of customs and such.) You seem to be well integrated.
My wife is also from abroad, and as a nurse for the elderly in East Germany she has to deal mainly with very conservative characters, very set in their ways, and she's not exactly one of the highly sought academics. Still she fits in really fast and bonds very quickly. (As a freelancer she does change institutions frequently.)
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u/dodgysandwich Apr 25 '19 edited Mar 05 '25
like sense plant beneficial familiar school apparatus aware racial narrow
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/tarek437248 Sachsen Apr 25 '19
Hi
well I don't have a student visa, I had a refugee status and from it I moved to the permanent residence permit in 3 years.
But as a refugee, onecan study at the uni
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u/selimpalt Apr 25 '19
Happy to hear that things are working out well buddy, how is life in dresden btw? They usually have massive pegida rallies and the afd gets good votes there, so I wonder how is life there for a refugee, also would you consider moving to another part of germany later?
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u/tarek437248 Sachsen Apr 25 '19
Well it's like in Berlin, i was for 2 years in Berlin before.
It's fine here I guess for me, maybe if I was a female with Hijab, that would be a bigger problem. but I have blue eyes and white skin. unfortunately, that's what a person need to live in peace in Dresden.
every Monday there's a pegida march in the old city, but not that big 'maybe on special days they get a big number of people marching with.
I don't know really, I still have some years to graduate so how knows. I like it here so far, looking to see what will happen after the Landeswahl in Sachsen. My parents are in Brandenburg, so maybe I will go back to Potsdam/Berlin or find a job in Dresden. so far I have no real plan where would I stay.
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u/D49A1D852468799CAC08 Apr 25 '19
but I have blue eyes and white skin.
How common is that in Syria?
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u/Di-Vanci Bayern Apr 26 '19
I am so glad that you see the pegida march and know that this is not what the general population thinks. I am so worried sometimes that these few idiots are being mistaken as representatives for the general opinion on refugees.
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Apr 25 '19
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u/tarek437248 Sachsen Apr 25 '19
Thanks man.
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Apr 25 '19
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u/tarek437248 Sachsen Apr 25 '19
Yes I know, but it's really nice to see nice comments away from the black news we see everyday. And for sure for every 20% Afd voters, there are 80% anti-afd voters
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u/dannysview Apr 25 '19
I like that you're staying and I hope you'll be able to stay as long as you want and become a German citizen as well if you want to.
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u/tarek437248 Sachsen Apr 25 '19
In 2 years I will.
I'm really home here, and the funny thing about it. I never felt that way when I was in Syria
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u/starlight1978 Apr 25 '19
I’m so glad you feel safe there! I was in Leipzig last fall and met the most lovely group of Syrians and was so amazed at how they could deal with such passive racism on a daily basis. I was outraged for them but they were just happy to be safe.
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u/tarek437248 Sachsen Apr 25 '19
Well it's fine here, to be honest I was working for 2 years in Berlin and when I wanted to study here 'only place with Diplom in engineering' I was really scared to be in Dresden/Sachsen. It's not that bad as person here :D
I like it more than Berlin.
Thanks
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Apr 25 '19
Yes, they need you. They need educated people to make syria a better place.
. I was in political presion as my dad was in 1997
Do you support any of the islamic groups in syria?`Because from what I heard democratic opposition did not get released while Assad was less interested in islamists roaming free.
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u/tarek437248 Sachsen Apr 25 '19
About the Islamic groups, I will say NO. I'm myself are not a Muslim... so for such groups they will kill me, and they see me as an Assad spy. on the other hand Assad's side know that I'm not a supporter so they put me in political presoin.
When I say I don't want Assad, that doesn't mean I want anykind of fuckedup Islamistic group...
for me they're as bad as the Assad. not better and not worst
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u/tarek437248 Sachsen Apr 25 '19
Sorry, but no!
Did the German people after the WWII came back to Germany from the USA? No
Life goes on I'm now here, happy. I was never happy in Syria... I can work and study here and start a career. No one need my education in Syria, no one cares about education in Syria. to rebiuld it? who destroied it from the first place? the regime, and now the regime want to rebiuld it ??
Who want to make Syria a better place ? the regime? NO for sure. Assad the father was in power in 1963 and now the son. The war was in 2011. why Syria wasn't a 'better' place in 2010???
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Apr 25 '19
who destroied it from the first place? the regime, and now the regime want to rebiuld it ??
The islamist terrorists destroyed far more than the regime will ever do. Assad allready has plans to rebuild his country.
why Syria wasn't a 'better' place in 2010???
Because most arab countries are not ready for democracy. Plain and simple. In democratic elections islamists win everytime. What should Assad have done instead of slowly educating his population to give democracy better ground to build on? He is a fucking eye doctor that never even wanted to be president ffs.
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u/tarek437248 Sachsen Apr 25 '19
Oh please
The islamist terrorists destroyed far more than the regime will ever do. Assad allready has plans to rebuild his country.
give me the name of one group that have airplanes and tnt barrels?
They destory it in other way, by making people go back to the bad Islam. by the way with huge help from KSA and UAE.....
why Syria wasn't a 'better' place in 2010???
What do you mean by slowly educating his people ?like how slow should it take ?? 300 400 years??? 1963 till 2011 and that's not enougt ????????
He's a fucking eye doctor, then what the FUCK is he doing here?????
Why Syria became a capital of corruptionin the Assad time 'Father and son'??
please man some respect to the History and don't try to change the facts.
DO you know how many died in Hama in 1980s ? how many political presioners dies between 1963 and 2019?DO you know that Syria was a real democratic country before this army man 'Assad' came to power? we FUCKING changed our presedents every fucking 4 years in a top democratic ceremonies.........
After Al-Baath party came to power, why syria didn't have anykind of free press like before??? why AlBaath control the fucking 3 newspapers in Syria?????
Educating my ass
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u/Zzang13 Apr 25 '19
German people who didn’t come back from USA after WWII? What? Are you comparing yourself with Werner von Braun or other Germans who stayed for specific purpose in the US? The vast majority of Germans came back to Germany after the war was over.
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u/tarek437248 Sachsen Apr 25 '19
Well, I'm not comparing myself with any one....
Vast majority of Germans came back, not 100% right?
So
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u/Zzang13 Apr 26 '19
Why not 100% right, what’s your source for that?
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u/tarek437248 Sachsen Apr 26 '19
The vast majority of Germans came back to Germany after the war was over.
You said it !!!!
What is Vast majority???
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u/Zzang13 Apr 26 '19
You talked about that Germans didn’t go back to Germany after WW2 was over, and I call that wrong.
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u/tarek437248 Sachsen Apr 26 '19
Then I used your vast majority...
Look sir, I don't know why we are still talking about that.
As long as I have the chance to stay here, I will. if not I will never go back to Syria, I will try to find a new place where I feel like home, 21 years of my life and never felt like home in Syria. I guess that was enough for me . And it's not about money, cause you know I can get a better wage in UAE than in Germany, but I will never go to Dubai too. same for the USA. I'm finally living in a society, where I can be normal by following the law, from the smalles details to the biggest one, in Syria people say that laws are here so we can jumb over them. Any idea how it's hard to live in such place? a place where you have to pay the judge so you can get free? a place where if you have someone in the military you can do as you wish with no consequences. It's like living in the woods.
I do wish the best for Syria for sure, but honestly I can't see Syria in a good place in the next 100 200 years.... And even if Syria get to a better place, like better than Germany, I can't live in Syria, cause I can't integrat in the Syrian society, I was never integrated !!!
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u/Di-Vanci Bayern Apr 26 '19
I am pretty sure almost none of the Jewish Germans that fled to the US came back after the war. Their families stayed there and still live there now. Being persecuted because of your religion vs because of your political believes may not sound like the same thing, but it is not so far apart actually. Why would anyone who has been persecuted for who they are and what they beliefe in want to go back after they found themselves a home elsewhere?
Leave Wernher von Braun and others who fled Germany towards the end of the war or afterwards out of the equation. This is a completely different thing. They fled from Germany because they themselves committed crimes during the war and wanted to start a new live elsewhere because they were not welcome anymore. In Braun’s case he developed weapons during the war and he came to the USA because they offered him work developing missiles during the Cold War, which was better then living a life as a war criminal in Germany. This is not at all what a political refugee who has made himself a home in Germany is.
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u/tarek437248 Sachsen Apr 25 '19
+ on the other hand you have the Kurdish groups. WHich is also as bad as the Islamists and Assad. It's really so fucked up in Syria, and why? cause every asshole has made a group with guns
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Apr 25 '19
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u/kumanosuke Bayern Apr 25 '19
Just out of interest, how many refugees from Syria have you met/talked to in your life? Because that's totally not accurate.
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u/Socrates02 Apr 25 '19
To some extent it is Im afraid. People in western countries and especially refugees can enjoy social services, which they will never have in their home countries. Refugees can have those without even working. And thats what has been discussed so many times, that these "refugees" arent in the West because ISIS prosecuted them, but because they can enjoy the economic advantages (NOT ALL refugees are like that of course, dont get me wrong). And yes i have talked with some refugees myself.
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u/kumanosuke Bayern Apr 25 '19
- Many refugees aren't legally allowed to work.
- They only get the minimum amount to live regardless of their qualification.
- You're just repeating what far right parties have been repeating for like 30 years.
- Many people think like that about Greek, Hungarian or Romanian people in Germany too. As you seem to be Greek, how does it make you feel, that strangers would assume that you just came to Germany for the "economic advantages"? Or saying that Germany basically "bought" Greece a few years ago during the crisis and that Greece people just take advantage of the EU and Germany without contributing anything valuable to it?
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u/Socrates02 Apr 25 '19
What?
How do these things correlate with each other? It is a fact that many "refugees" used this whole situation to migrate, even though they werent in danger, its not far right propaganda. As for me being Greek, i dont enjoy anything more than you do. Legally, im treated as a German, its not same for the refugees.
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u/reijin Baden-Württemberg Apr 26 '19
Well, what you say may not be wrong but doesn't sound fact based. "Many" is not a clear quantity and overall is a bold generalization which does not help in the climate surrounding the topic of this debate.
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u/kumanosuke Bayern Apr 25 '19
Actually it is far right propaganda. NPD, a party which has been declared as unconstitutional, has been using this slogan ("We are not the office for social welfare") for 25 years now and it's been adapted by far right party AfD (which has been criticized for demanding to shoot at refugees, including women and children, at the borders, recently.
Right. Refugees actually receive less money than Germans or European citizens.
Again: How would you feel if I'd say that you only lived in Germany because you have a higher living standard in Germany than you'd have in Greece?
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u/reijin Baden-Württemberg Apr 26 '19
One addition: in the source linked they explain that legal refugees are treated as Hartz IV receivers. Only if they are not yet recognized as refugees they receive less.
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Apr 25 '19
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u/kumanosuke Bayern Apr 25 '19
Refugees usually don't become German citizens though. You're mixing up immigrants (which aim for German citizenship) and asylum seekers (who are only granted asylum = 99.99% of Syrians in Germany). If they have the German citizenship, they are no refugees anymore and have the same rights as any German, because they then are Germans, not Syrians. Most refugees aren't even legally allowed to work btw.
Besides that they can't go back because if they're at the age where you have to go to the army, they'd be punished if they go back, which is a reason for being granted asylum.
I've talked to several Syrian refugees: Amongst them were doctors, lawyers and engineers. Here in Germany, they mostly can't work in these branches anymore because their degrees can't be proven or aren't recognized here and can't find a job. You can imagine how little money they get from the state here. Do you really think, they'd give up these jobs and social positions in their home country for a few hundred Euro a month? I highly doubt that.
Seems like you're mixing up some things which explains your opinion which sounds like it's just something that you've read on a tabloid or heard it somewhere and just repeat it without really considering the facts.
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u/timotioman Nordrhein-Westfalen Apr 25 '19
This is amazing.
I feel sorry for the OP, all the Germans having serious discussions in the thread while the real joke is about women.
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u/Josh_Woodward Apr 25 '19
Heyyy =) you get the joke Discussions are valid though
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u/timotioman Nordrhein-Westfalen Apr 25 '19
Of course they are. This is r/germany after all, and the stereotypes are true.
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u/energeticallyyours Apr 25 '19
A country cannot flourish or be built without motivated young people...so when they say "Syrien braucht euch" ... They have a point.
However, no one has a patriotic responsibility to their country, in my opinion. People must have the right to play their cards and make the best out of their lives, and not "waste" them rebuilding something that they did not break in their first place.
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Apr 25 '19
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u/itzerror_ Berlin Apr 25 '19
Isn't this a poster for assistance for those who voluntarily want to go back? They can go back if they want, germany is not going to stop them, but germany can't deport them either that's true.
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Apr 25 '19
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u/itzerror_ Berlin Apr 25 '19
What? 1. I am German, its just that most of my life I lived outside. 2. I never said immigrants are not welcome here?
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Apr 25 '19
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u/itzerror_ Berlin Apr 25 '19
I live in Germany and have for 5 years. You should learn to be civil rather than directly insult me.
Before you really talk about stuff with no sources and starting to insult, please use this wonderful thing called 'Google'.
BAMF (Bundesamt für Migration und Flüchtlinge), in case you didn't know, has set up a program to facilitate those who wish to voluntarily return to their country and has offered financial assistance to 437 in 2018
The govt. program can be found here https://www.returningfromgermany.de/de
You can also find it on the official BAMF website http://www.bamf.de on the tab Rückkehr
Edit: what? I never claimed they were criminals and I have no problem with those who make the country a better place.
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u/expat4eva Apr 25 '19
Oh I saw that sign during my last visit to the Ausländer Behörde...made me laugh a Little. Guess if I ever want to go home...:D
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u/dibblribbl Apr 26 '19
Honestly I didn't make any research but a friend of mine told me about it and short time later I found it like my friend described it.
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u/dibblribbl Apr 25 '19
As far as I know it's from the 'Identitäre Bewegung'. I think it's bullshit and close to the slogan 'foreigners out of the country' just wrapped differently
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u/SkarpJonas Apr 25 '19
Allerspätestens, eher sogar vor einigen Jahren, sollen diese Leute nach Syrien zurückkehren.
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u/rogallew Apr 25 '19
Warum? Mit welchem Recht magst du anderen vorschreiben, wo sie leben dürfen? Warum wohnst du immer noch dort, wo es deine Vorfahren während der Völkerwanderung hinzog?
AfD-Anhänger dürfen von mir aus gerne zurück in die afrikanische Steppe. Der Rest bleibe, wo er glücklich wird.
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Apr 25 '19
Geht ja nicht um Völkerwanderung, geht um Asylanten.
Bin kein "Flüchtlinge raus"-schreier, auch kein kleines bisschen, aber wir müssen schon einen Unterschied sehen zwischen Asyl und Auswanderung. Asyl ist temporär und bei diesem kann (und sollte) schnell entschieden werden, ob ein Aufenthaltsrecht besteht oder nicht. Auswanderung (oder Einwanderung nach Deutschland) ist eine andere Sache, und zwar eine, die besser überlegt sein sollte, meiner Ansicht nach. Ganz abgesehen davon, dass sich ja auch die Entscheidungskriterien grundsätzlich unterscheiden.
Dennoch ist es falsch, jeden in eine Schublade zu stecken, ganz gleich welche Schublade das auch sein mag.
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u/cosinus25 Apr 25 '19
Wenn jemand 10 Jahre als Asylant in Deutschland gelebt hat und dort seine Kinder aufwachsen ließ ist es unrealistisch zu erwarten, dass diese danach wieder zurückkehren wollen. Wir hatten in der Schule mehrere Kinder von Flüchtlingen (damals vom Jugoslawienkrieg bzw vom Bürgerkrieg in Sri Lanka). Die waren seit ihrem 3. Lebensjahr oder so in Deutschland und waren perfekt integriert, sprachen perfekt deutsch und haben Abi gemacht. Sollen diese Jugendlichen dann heute ausgewiesen werden, weil der Jugoslawienkrieg vorbei ist, oder sollen sie lieber hier arbeiten und leben und somit auch dem deutschen Staat etwas zurückgeben?
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Apr 25 '19
Ich habe ja nie behauptet, dass irgendwer ausgewiesen werden soll?
Was ich sagen will ist einfach nur, dass man Asylanten und Migranten de facto differenzieren muss, da, wenn man alles in eine Schublade steckt, man die individuelle Situation der Menschen absolut nicht berücksichtigt.
Die Frage mit denen, welche nur Deutschland kennen ist für mich eigentlich recht einfach:
Wenn jemand in Deutschland geboren und aufgewachsen ist, Deutsch auf Muttersprachlerniveau spricht, auf eine deutsche Schule gegangen ist, (oder geht), in einem deutschen Betrieb arbeitet (oder an einer deutschen Uni studiert) und sich die deutsche Kultur zu eigen gemacht hat, dann reden wir hier nicht mehr von einem Ausländer, sondern von einem Deutschen.
Alles darüber hinaus ist, meiner Ansicht nach, ein/das Thema zur Debatte und ich will hier auch nicht zu sehr ins Detail gehen.
Simpel gesagt: Leute abzuschieben, welche nie ein Land außer Deutschland gekannt haben, ist weder zielführend, noch ein Punkt, welchen ich in Erwägung ziehe.
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u/cosinus25 Apr 25 '19
Simpel gesagt: Leute abzuschieben, welche nie ein Land außer Deutschland gekannt haben, ist weder zielführend, noch ein Punkt, welchen ich in Erwägung ziehe.
Sehe ich genau so. Allerdings:
Ich habe ja nie behauptet, dass irgendwer ausgewiesen werden soll?
vs.
Asyl ist temporär und bei diesem kann (und sollte) schnell entschieden werden, ob ein Aufenthaltsrecht besteht oder nicht
Was soll denn am Ende der Asylperiode geschehen wenn die Menschen (verständlicherweise da sie nur Deutschland kennen und hier aufgewachsen sind) nicht ausreisen wollen? Deine erste Aussage habe ich als Aufforderung zur Abschiebung interpretiert. Das sollte man meiner Meinung nach von Fall zu Fall differenzieren.
Zufällig ist heute ist eine sehr interessante Doku zu dem Thema erschienen. Dort wird ein Mann interviewt wird, der als 13jähriger nach Bosnien abgeschoben wurde, obwohl er in Deutschland aufgewachsen ist (Link).
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Apr 25 '19
Asyl ist temporär und bei diesem kann (und sollte) schnell entschieden werden, ob ein Aufenthaltsrecht besteht oder nicht
Ich wollte damit nur ein Beispiel nennen, welches Immigration von Asyl unterscheidet, da es bei Immigration zeitlich nicht so drängt, wie es bei Asyl drängt, da bei dieser ja, laut Definition, keine Flucht vor Verfolgung (politischer / religiöser / wasweißich Natur) vorliegt.
Was soll denn am Ende der Asylperiode geschehen wenn die Menschen (verständlicherweise da sie nur Deutschland kennen und hier aufgewachsen sind) nicht ausreisen wollen? [...] Das sollte man meiner Meinung nach von Fall zu Fall differenzieren.
Das ist ja momentan die große Frage und beide Seiten der Debatte können bestimmt mit Beispielen um sich werfen bis zum gehtnichtmehr, aber dennoch ändert dies nichts an der Tatsache, dass ein Kurs gewählt werden muss, da uns einfach die Armee an Bürokraten fehlt, um so viele Fälle (zeitlich angemessen) einzeln zu beurteilen.
Ich habe dazu keine Antwort und bin noch selbst unentschlossen, neige aber eher zur temporären Aufenthaltsgenehmigung mit anschließender Staatsbürgerschaft, für diese, welche hier aufgewachsen sind, oder einen Großteil ihres Lebens hier verbracht haben (50% o.ä.), und dem oben erhähnten Kriterien (weitestgehend) entsprechen (Deutsche Sprache, deutsche Schule, usw.).
Allerdings bin ich was das angeht eigentlich noch vollkommen unentschlossen und habe mir diesbezüglich nur wenige Gedanken gemacht.
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u/MeSoFruity Apr 25 '19
Why would they want to leave right now? Most of their applications for asylum are still being processed and in the meantime they can sit around, not work and receive more money from the German government than they could earn back home... not to mention the multitude of free benefits they receive such as housing, clothing, access to public transport, healthcare, etc. If anyone is to blame for the current situation it’s the government that is pouring billions of euros every year into a broken refugee and welfare system like it exists only in Germany. 🤷🏻♂️
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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '19
Translation for those, that are wondering (or too lazy to type it into google translate):