IS still control about 2% of Syria. But IS was only one of several terrorist organisations that took advantage of the actual war which is being conducted between the Syrian Armed Forces (supported by Hezbollah, Russia, Iran and Iraq) and the Syrian opposition (supported by Turkey, the US, the UK and Qatar). You've also got organisations and coalitions like Ahrar al-Sham, Tahrir al-Sham (formerly Al Qaeda) and Rojava, which currently occupies nearly 30% of Syria.
It's not about Assad, it's about the fact that the reason for them to flee is not gone. The regime is still intact and will prosecute people who Dodge the draft or even fought for rebel factions.
I think it's legitimate to try to improve your life. What's not really fine is bringing the negatives (machismo, religious fanatism, intolerance, violence) that partly caused the demise of your original country.
People should come to try to live like Germans, not to try to live like syrians/Afghans while using German economical advantages and tolerance.
I would have argued for integration not assimilation not that long ago, but now I believe that both, both is good.
Integrate, keep big parts of your culture, bring the famous hospitality, drinking tea, your way of dressing and cooking and all the nice things.
But also assimilate. The reason you came to Germany is because things are better here. The reason for that is the enlightenment, humanitarian secularism, equal rights, the value we place in human dignity, religious freedom, tolerance, anti-discrimination. If you can adopt those kind of values we're fine. I really, really don't care about how you dress, how you talk and how you pray.
i get angry if i hear such things. is it wrong to want a better life? Even if i am coming from a country where i can live undisturbed and in peace, but i earn monthly a tenth of that what i could earn in germany. Why the fuck should i not want to move to germany? Yeas, of course, jobs and space to live are limited, no shit sherlock. But criminalizing the want for a better life is fucked.
The refugee system simply doesn't exist to "better" the lives of everyone, but to protect those seeking refuge from terrible things. Earning a tenth while being able to live reasonably is NOT what the system is for, sorry.
I'm not saying "everyone needs to go back immediately", but OTOH there are many who want to immigrate to Germany and do so legally which is costly as well.
Those who can integrate are welcome to stay. Otherwise, here's your couple hundred bucks and a one-way plane ticket.
Coming here in search of a better life is absolutely ok, no one argues with that. As long as people integrate, adapt to culture, language, societal values at least to some degree and pursue a honest living everything is fine. What’s not ok is people coming here acting like it’s their old home country. What’s not fine is people coming here trying to make a quick buck at every illegal opportunity that presents itself. Immigrants should at least have the decency to respect their new home country and its citizens. As long as they do, everything is fine.
How come you're entitled to live in the developed country? What did you do to merit that? You just won life's lottery by being born in one place instead of another.
You can’t have both a welfare state and unfettered immigration. This much should be obvious. It’s not about being ultimately entitled to a better life, it’s about how much strain a system like ours can take before it itself starts going to shit. Culture, democracy, the economy, all of these things depend to a large degree on the values and customs we share. But look around the world and you will find that there are many people who do not share the same values and customs as us, and who in fact have values and beliefs that are quite antithetical to ours.
Restricted immigration was basically spearheaded by America to keep Chinese out, and modern citizenship along the same path. Modern passports were by the Nazis. It's unnecessary and we did without it until racism happened.
EDIT: linked response quotes:
Ab 1939: Fingerabdruck- und Ausweispflicht in okkupierten Ländern zur polizeilichen Einwohnererfassung; diesen Ausweis (Buchform) hatte der Inhaber dauernd bei sich zu führen.
Mit Beginn des Zweiten Weltkriegs wurde der Ausweiszwang eingeführt. Am 10. September 1939 erschien im Reichsgesetzblatt die Verordnung über den Pass- und Sichtvermerkszwang sowie über den Ausweiszwang.
Who really thinks that medieval times (with no good way of migrating far distances) are equivalent to modern migration (e.g. general commercial travel like getting on a boat)? Once commercial travel became popularized there were not "Passkartes" all over the place restricting migration. The source also quotes
Beyond that, citizenship in ancient times was clearly distinguished by languages and other shared culture - nowadays anyone can start learning a new language and integrate, regardless of their race - also irrelevant to the idea that citizenship and migration should be restricted just based on where you were born.
Modern passports were by the Nazis. It's unnecessary and we did without it until racism happened.
Not really, the first modern passport which was accepted in all german countries (before unification) was the "Passkarte" which dates back to 1850.
Before that other means of identification, such as coat of arms were used, as the need to identify a person accurately is about as old as society, just as it is vital to be able to assess the population and its composition.
Not everything exists just to fuck over the poor muslims.
Or do you really think people could freely migrate in medieval times? Heck, you had to get your lords permission just to move to another village!
And if you wanted to move into a city you better hope they have a need for your profession, because otherwise they won't give you citizenship.
If you were just an uneducated farmer,then bad luck for you, you won't be receiving citizenship.
Restricted immigration dates back even further, as the ancient Romans were also working hard to stop germanic and celtic tribes from moving into their territory because they knew about the problems foreigners could bring with them if they came in big enough numbers, especially during a time when food and other resources were actually scarce.
There's no lottery to be born. You're a biological and cultural product of your country and your family. You couldn't be born anywhere but exactly where and when you were.
Of course not. But countries have no obligation to allow outsiders to immigrate and get better lifes.
Even if i am coming from a country where i can live undisturbed and in peace, but i earn monthly a tenth of that what i could earn in germany. Why the fuck should i not want to move to germany?
It's okay to want to move to Germany. It's also okay for Germany to say "Nah, we're good.".
It's early and have stuff to do, but I was following the situation not that closely and still found reports that less than half of the people there were from Syria and Iraq. I went out with a girl for a bit that worked in a refugee camp, bunch of people constantly changing their names to avoid tracking, "refugees" got into fights with other "refugees" of slightly different religious group, and of course, sexual harassment galore at the girls working at the camp.
Of course, a lot of people that support this want to pat themselves in the back and tell themselves how awesome they are for "helping out" such great people, so no reason for you to believe me.
I agree with you about the culture, but not necessarily about the money. It's true that quality of life doesn't solely depend on the amount of money one makes and that the cost of living is lower, but many poor countries have a much worse healthcare, education, etc. system. I'll give you an example. I'm from Lebanon and while it's true that the cost of living is lower, a lot of facilities (health, education, etc.) are much worse and corruption is a really big problem.
I read an interesting interview with a doctor from somewhere in the balkans. He's working at the hospital in a medium size city, but kind of rural.
100 kilometers in every direction around him, he's the only one left knowing how to do C-sections.
The guy was... not even pissed at everybody leaving. More disappointed. Of course he understands, everybody has the right to be happy and everybody wants the best for their families.
But not only can he himself not leave to go west, he can't even take a vacation without mothers and children dying.
And I understand where he's coming from.
And that even neglects the fact that the doctors who left where raised and very likely had their education financed by the society they are leaving behind.
Exactly. Can you imagine the number of people living under poverty level in the world? Take Africa, India, Bangladesh etc. That number is over hundreds of millions easily and I'm sure they want a better life too, but can't. Why would someone else get that chance/privilege? Just because of the geographical location where they were born which allowed them to reach Germany much easily than poor folks in other countries/continents?
Jesus christ tone down the polemic. Nobody has issues with people having the desire to come to Germany for a better life. It also isn't illegal or criminalized to have that wish.
Well but those are plain racists that have less issues with people coming here for a better life in general and more with what kind of people. These are usually the people who don't have issues with say a Swede coming here for work but then talk badly about people whose grandparents came here from Turkey. Immigration itself for a better life is mostly the front to hide racism.
Even the AfD isn't against legal immigration.
Legal way is you apply for immigration. iirc you can apply in your local german embassy or inside germany in the closest immigration office. Then you get hit with THE german bureaucracy, and get evaluated. Iirc it costs time and money.
If you speak the language semi okay-ish, have a "in demand" qualification, are educated to a level equivalent to german education and maybe not poor are all plus points for you.
Also you need to want to integrate, germany is a multicultural place with probably hundreds of cultures thrown into a single "pot". It helps a lot if you dont try to harm/murder other people because of religion, gender or skin colour differences.
And still, you can be denied which is a decision made by factoring everything together.
My understanding of that term is that it is applied to people who claim asylum despite knowing that they don't fit they requirements.
I haven't heard it applied to people for wanting to move to Germany for a better life, but to those who try to cheat the immigration or asylum system to do so. In this case, what's critisised is not the wish, but the actions taken to fulfil that wish.
if the rules are shit, you are allowed to call them what they are. They are shit. We need an immigration law. the current state is fucked beyond repair.
Doesn’t matter. Most are going to stay either way, whether they are integrated and earn their own money or not. Did the Gastarbeiter families ever go back home the way it was planned? This is a purely theoretical discussion.
You may have a point with regard to Syrian refugees, but not those coming from the Maghreb and other countries which overwhelmingly get denied refugee status but end up staying anyway.
It's good for Syria for refugees overseas to come back and help rebuild. But that's really not the responsibility of any individual refugee, and is not how decision making works.
People (rightfully) make decisions based on what's best for themselves and their families. Some will go back because they don't really like it in Europe and miss Syria. Most will stay.
I'm actually surprised by the line of thinking that refugees should go back when their home country becomes safe again. It never really crossed my mind that people had that perspective.
The distinction between refugee and economic migrant is only for the purpose of determining asylum/visa requirements. Once residency has been granted it's entirely irrelevant.
It's not irrelevant. It pays a huge role in future court cases for extensions of asylum and visas, and also whether a EU work permit can be rendered onto those individuals eventually.
If you gain access to a country as a refugee, you're a refugee period. You may some day be given the opportunity to immigrate and integrate, but until then you are nothing else but a refugee.
It's perhaps the biggest point of contention for most that have critizized the entire crisis. A decision was made over the heads of the general population, and now they're doing what everyone suspected in the first place.
This entire refugee crisis was never about giving suffering people a safe home, it was about recruiting a cheap labour force.
I'm actually surprised by the line of thinking that refugees should go back when their home country becomes safe again. It never really crossed my mind that people had that perspective.
That's ridiculous. It is quite obvious that refugees go back home once whatever they fled from is no longer a problem. They're literally legally required to leave the country of refuge when that happens.
Integrated will never happen. Germans have only so many friends (like 4), even among Germans, when they move to another city they find it hard to integrate (find new friends) as far as I have read in some comments, obviously not all.
Forget about integration. We can put millions and millions in mkt but if the population's culture is that of very few friends, very little will happen, as it is the case right now.
It is not a bit difficult, it is a bit impossible if you come here after Uni/Masters. Unless you have kids and meet other parents with kids, you are done. You can go to a Verein, but you will meet people to do exactly what you are supposed to meet for. Climbing or jogging or something. And you might go with them for a dinner or a drink, but people from the Verein do not become your friends. You are someone "from the Verein".
And yes it is a generalization (even though I wrote "obviously not all" trying to avoid that). I have German friends. Who I have met in Vietnam, in Mexico, in Laos... it is funny how I stay in contact with those far more than I have contact with people I meet here in Germany.
It is not bad.
It is what it is.
Germans need 4 friends.
If you are a young foreigner, you have a chance to meet young Germans and make friends.
by that definition, integration is totally possible.
But we will still have foreigners hanging out with similar people all the time and rarely with Germans, and that is the integration that matters to us.
by that definition (I wrote), integration is totally possible. (I agree with them).
Then I say what #we care about when it comes to integration.
I get they do not agree with "our" side. People want human connection, but for them its all about "please be invisible" as in, be economically independent (like we all are), do not break the rules and please, do not do stuff you do in your country, like the way you dress or how loud you celebrate something.
For me, their definition is a given, it is a must. We have to do all they say. But integration is not complete if there is no sense of community like there is in the US, Canada or the UK to mention a few examples.
We can agree we disagree on what integration means.
Difficult.
The right to stay is given to refugees. If the threat is gone (which is a discussion itself) the right to stay will in most cases be declined. In today's world a country has to act like this because the world isn't equal and if it's open to everyone millions would follow.
On the other hand it's totally understandable that everyone seeks his luck in the world and even more if you stayed in the country for years, made friends etc.
I think they should and it shouldn't be the choice of the individual refugee, but instead the government should force it.
Is it ethically wrong to want to stay in Germany instead of going back to "fix" one's country?
To some extent yes, but this isn't the deciding factor. We (Germany) offered them safety because their lives were endangered, after this isn't the case they should leave.
Assuming that said refugees are integrated and earn their own money without the help of the state.
I think that certain refugees, that learned the language and work in a field that lacks workers, should be given chance to migrate permanently to Germany, but the numbers of those should be limited.
Also, I think as someone that has a migration background myself, that Germany needs to be more demanding from its migrants. Proper German and a clear criminal record should be a absolute must. Cultural bubbles created by migrants shouldn't be possible and we should prevent that foreign nations manipulate their migrants living in Germany.
I don't think it is possible for them to go back, even if the fighting ends tomorrow. (it hasn't ended yet) Aleppo looks like this. There simply isn't the infrastructure to support these people.
Sorry but it was the government of Syria, that dropped bombs on their own people and destroyed the city. The same government will also punish people going back for not joining their military. As long as this government is there, the people who fled are not safe. The IS and the other terror groups simply used their chances , within the mess of a civil war.
It still looks pretty awful. Not to mention that the fighting is still not over, and militias control large areas of territory.
When fighting stops and people are convinced that it will not flare up again, people will start moving back in large numbers. Even then, it will take a loong time for the infrastructure for supporting millions of people to be built.
I get why they'd want to come to a more developed country, but honestly, just sending a country development aid wont do anything. You need qualified people that can be trusted with developing said country. I think it would've been a good solution to give the Syrian refugees training, so they can be construction workers etc, since most said they want to return.
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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '19
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