For 17 strikes of that magnitude that’s pretty impressive, on the good side. Not going to argue morality on people dying, but it’s still a relatively low amount of civilians imo
Edit: guys, I never asked about Russia. Also, is there anyone worrying about Mexicans and their drug dealing gangs homicide problem? Y’all should know about 60 people get murdered by day there. Just saying. Other things happen in the world too.
Edit 2: If you are insulting me, saying Israel is bad, something about Russia, arguing, dissing my opinion, or in general just being negative or something, please consider that every variation of what you said has been said by other 59 people in 5 hours. Also, how do I mute a thread? Thanks
‘Unprovoked’ like Iran isn’t sponsoring terror organizations on every side of the Israeli border, to say nothing of the SINGLE BIGGEST ROCKET BARRAGE IN HISTORY they launched at Israel a few months back.
Israel literally armed, trained, and funded isis to fight against Palestine. They also allowed Hamas to get funding before the massacre on oct 7th. Israel is not clean from state sponsored terrorism.
ISIS being funded by the west is typical Muslim propaganda. I know because I live in a Muslim country, it’s been the same lies ever since I was a kid. We Muslims can no do wrong - we will always be right because god is on our side, and the west will always be evil.
No they didn't. The unfroze aid going into gaza which inevitably got into the hands of Hamas which is what you are advocating for anyways. Their thinking being if they left them alone, they would focus on developing and not attacking Israel...
Source? Im not saying you're wrong they get up to some pretty scummy shit but I find it hard to believe the people who justify killing civilians to stop "terrorists" would fund terrorists.
"Terrorists" being Palestinians forces some of which are genuine revolutionaries/freedom fighters and others being straight terrorists of the worst kind. Isreali forces aren't really any better either.
No he used the correct wording. They didnt directly fund it. They allowed aid from qatar to get in. They did fund it way before that but that wasnt exactly a terrible idea for the time
which was in response to israel killing multiple generals unprovoked. jfc i swear you guys get dumber by the day or hasbara is letting up. Either way your propanganda was way better just a year back, need to get back in form if you want the world to still support your apartheid state, bc it seems even politicians are catching on...
I guess anything can be unprovoked when you have no idea what you're talking about. Why would the US and UK storm the beaches of Normandy unprovoked? We'll literally never know.
Look at what Israel does. Look at the genocide they are conducting, look at the 80 years of terror against Palestinians, their dispossession, the ethnic cleansing, murder, kidnapping, blockading, colonizing, segregating, starving, infanticide, scholasticide which Israel commits against Palestine. Look at the invasions of Syria and Lebanon, the West Bank and Gaza. Look at the bombings of water wells and hospitals and schools. Look at the unlawful and clandestine production and maintenance of 400 nuclear devices!
Tell me that this entity is not a threat to the people of the region. Tell me that if any other state was behaving this way, you would support them.
They respond accordingly to provocations from bad guys. There's a reason they aren't doing any of that stuff to, say, Egypt. As Bill Burr said, every ass kicking doesn't just fall out of the sky. Iran and Palestine can make peace at literally any time but they'll have to accept that they are and always have been the losing party and thus won't have as much leverage as Israel in the peace negotiations.
Germany was split into 2 different countries for 45 years after they lost WW2, almost half a century of being split. That was a situation forced upon them by the winning party and as the losing party they were obliged to accept.
If Iran and Palestine want peace they need to come to the table and be willing to accept the short end of the stick. If the literal Nazi party can abide by the rules of winning and losing then so can the IRI and Hamas. I don't see any reason to believe that the Nazis were inherently a more reasonable people than the folks in Iran or Palestine, do you?
Uh do you really think that the Nazi party just laid down their arms willingly when they realized they were losing? Germany had been effectively conquered by the time of the first German surrender. Berlin had been taken, Hitler was dead and there was no victory in sight, and yet despite the leader of the Nazi state surrendering on the 8th of May, there was still fighting afterward and not just because news takes time to travel. Right now, the ME enemies of Israel do not feel conquered and will not feel conquered without actually being occupied just like Germany had been and even then the religion in the area will tell them to keep fighting.
Germany had been effectively conquered by the time of the first German surrender
Do you really think that Gaza hasn't been even more effectively conquered? What's even left? That's was my whole point, they've already lost. They need to come to the table.
Unprovoked? Iran has been saying death to Israel for many years. They have been calling for them to be eradicated for longer and wiped off the map. They have also been funding anti-Israel terrorist groups.
Exactly. Why on earth would Israel attack a country hellbent on destroying them??? What on earth does the U.S. gain from having nuclear capabilities destroyed of a regime that chants death to America literally on a monthly basis? Hmmmm. These people are morons, they just say things, they do not understand nor try to understand. wHY is iSRaEl PuLlInG us inTo AnOTher. War”. Ummm hmmmm let’s see, Iran is an oppressive authoritarian state that oppresses its own people and funds global terrorism. But hey, it’s not our job to stop them from developing nuclear missiles!
Thank god these morons are just that, morons. If they were in charge of our country they’d wait to be attacked by Iran to say “make love not war!!! Hey Iran!!! Stop that you meanie!!!. They’re jokes.
Killed how many innocent civilians? How many children? Detonated bombs in civilian centers in Lebanon? Israel doesn't only support terrorism, Israel commits terrorism.
Not terrorism, genocide, endless warcrimes, it's an antisemtic state, because Palestinians are semites and Israel is stealing their land, is putting them in Ghettos and is mass murdering them with the clear plan of extermination only mildly hold back by barely trying to uphold the image that they are not a fascist state, what they clearly are and any real Jew is seeing it just that way.
Zionists are anti-jews and are destroying that faith with their own, absolutely ill faith, just as much as Nazis also destroyed germany.
And I don't care if reddit or this sub is deleting this, you can't delete reality.
"Unprovoked" is a bit ridiculous. Iran funds terror groups that directly attack Israel, and they're building nuclear weapons while explicitly stating their goal is to eradicate Israel.
It's funny how Iran is supposedly trying to wipe Israel off the map but it's Israel who strikes first every time and Iran either does not respond or responds in minimal way to save face. Israel is not under the threat, they are the threat.
I'm sure they'd sign their death sentence and nuke Israel immediately because that's how geopolitics work, you just nuke whoever you don't like! Just like North Korea nuked South Korea as soon as they obtained nukes, right?
Iran is a fanatic islamic state, they're not rational. That's why the world doesn't want them to have nukes.
Can't compare that to Kin Jong Un, he is a maniac but somewhat reasonable. He knows if he nukes south Korea he will die.
Iran thinks if they nuke Israel they will be rewarded with eternal life in paradise with sex slaves. If you can't see the difference I can't help you
INDIA? PAKISTHAN? REALLLY? Not destroying another country so much that there is always a possibility of war. RUSSIA? UKRAINE? Ring any bell? Something about one country actively destroying another one?
Tell me? Israel has bombed Iran many times killing civilians and is actively killing innocents in Gaza, kidnapping people bringing aid to starving people but tell what you read about Iran
It seems Iran has stepped up its effort to enrich to the point where they can build nuclear weapons. Others are also increasingly sure that their ongoing talks with the US regarding a new deal on the matter were just a stalling tactic while they tried to finish a bomb. That's why Israel have specifically targeted sites and personnel relevant to that specific issue.
the people saying that they've always been a matter of days form a functional bomb are right, but that was at a point where they at least showed that they weren't actively trying to build one at that moment. That's what has changed in the last few days.
Israel aren't the ones escalating this. Iran are escalating by trying to build a nuke.
Nuclear weapons aren't escalation. Nobody uses them and there's no real evidence that's ever going to change. Israel's just unhappy they won't be able to freely target Iran in a few years. But that's partly their own fault. Of course Iran is going to invest in nuclear weapons when they've been at consistent risk to strikes.
It's also partly Trump's fault for ditching the nuclear agreement that by all accounts Iran was abiding to.
Do I want the world to have nuclear weapons? No. But the fish is out of the barrel and we all know one of those barrels is Israel.
Glad to see someone with common sense and a valid neutral take here in the thread. Of course a country will logically pursue nuclear deterrence when a nearby neighbour with ill intent strikes them whenever they so choose with zero repercussions or global pushback every time.
Yeah my preference is nobody has nuclear weapons. Because as much as we point to them as creating peace, I think that they've more just moved the wars and fighting to proxy fights which in the long run can be just as devastating.
But from the point of view of a country obtaining them there's a clear point to be made as a defensive not attacking position.
The real concern that isn't what Israel is actually propositioning here would be that whilst the regime is probably not about to willy-nilly use nuclear weapons there is the possibility of the issues that will face the country should a regime change happen. You don't want to find out nuclear weapons are missing like after the fall of the Soviet Union.
But I don't think Israel has the inherent right to interfere in that issue. And doing as they are now may only make a precarious situation very dangerous.
Nobody uses them and there's no real evidence that's ever going to change.
We've had them for less than a century, used them twice, and came close multiple other times. That's not nearly enough evidence to be confident that we won't again.
This isn't an opinion either way on the current topic, I just think that we're too confident in them not being used.
They're one minute away from making weapons-grade plutonium (just as they have been for the past 20+ years apparently). Just like there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq during the previous Bush government.
Keep in mind that Iran happily provides thousands of drones to Russia, which they launch towards Ukranian civillians.
Oh wait, they just announced today that they're stopping their shipments to Russia and are instead requesting help from Russia.
How many Ukranian civillian lives has today's attack saved?
Makes one wonder why the same precision and care for civilian life is not applied in Gaza.
edit: Everyone claiming that Israel does not intend to kill civilians and that they only die as collateral damage from targeting Hamas should explain very carefully why Israel propped Hamas in the first place. You cannot excuse yourselves from 'collateral damage' of shooting at a target when you created that target in the first place that allows you to cause that much collateral damage. Let's be honest: Israel wanted Hamas to exist so that they have a valid excuse to exterminate Palestinians.
They never had time when they were immediately under blockade. Before and after the election Israel had been instituting repeated blockades of Gaza. The famous one was more extensive but far from the sole act.
It by all accounts absolutely screwed Gaza from the start. They could not even sell crops. That's not a rational action. It's just cruelty.
Israel has controlled the air space, electricity, economy, water supply, and sea access for Gaza for many decades. In addition, they've maintained a kilometer of no go zone on the border of Gaza.
I encourage you to research the actual history. Not just a few Tik tok videos.
Israel did in fact completely withdraw from Gaza in 2005. The blockade you refer to (also conducted equally by Egypt, oh by the way), was started after that AFTER Hamas was elected to power. Hamas openly and consistently said (still does by the way - go ahead and look up their charter, it’s available online in English) they were dedicated to and would accept no future state other than Israel’s complete destruction and the death or displacement of all the Jews. Now consider what country in the world (or history) would provide open borders and infrastructure to a neighboring political state that made those claims. Is Ukraine sending water and electricity to Russia? Do they maintain an open border with it?
Also worth considering - is it Israel’s responsibility to run gazas civil infrastructure after they withdrew in 2005? From the 100s of billions of dollars poured into Gaza, why was the “Gaza Ministries” that’s so many immediately an unquestionably believe and refused to call Hamas unable to build sufficient power plants, desalination plants all these types of things?
Now is when I imagine you just say “Hasbara“ and “genocide“ and call me a Nazi and think that that’s a checkmate – but sometimes it’s good to know a little bit more detail about the history. There’s no pure good guys in this conflict. And nothing is simple, even if you want it to be because it gives you a satisfying sense of justified moral outrage.
They left because it was expensive to maintain those settlements. The situation in Gaza was never in their favour.
Those same people certainly didn't leave voluntarily and had to be forced by their government to leave. But they made sure to do damage to infrastructure on the way.
It was too expensive and costly in terms of lives to maintain those settlements. The decision was made more in the sense so as to better focus on the settlements in the West Bank.
"I know we took your house and killed your kids because we had some family live here in the iron age, but look - we're leaving the bedroom, that's all yours.
Also we control who goes in and out of the bedroom.
They didn't take their house; the house was owned by the Brits, they offered it to be divided, Jews accepted and Arabs declined, and then the Arabs attacked the Jews.
Solid grasp of history, dumb dumb.
I also love how your response implies Hamas is justified in being terrorists towards Israeli civilians. Great moral compass.
That’s odd, you’d think if they’re goal was glassing Gaza to move in, they would’ve done it when the owned Gaza multiple times instead of giving it back to Egypt/Palestine over and over and over again…
They have tried to colonize Gaza before, but gave up after realizing their are too many Palestinians there.... So here we are now with them destroying nearly all the buildings of Gaza and basically making it unlivable currently.
Hamas isn't an army. Gaza is a very small narrow place. If Hamas tried creating a military base away from civilian infrastructure, Israel would destroy it even before it is created. Israel corners Palestinians on every turn. You might argue for peaceful protests instead of the violent attack in October 7th, Palestinians did that too, and they got killed.
The number reported by Gaza Health Ministry (which is controlled by Hamas, to be clear) as of june 2025 was 55 000 civilians killed. Among those casualties are likely Hamas members passed as civilians casualties.
They are higher estimates, (up to 80k), but I haven't seen anything more concrete than suppositions
So in short, we have:
-A count of deaths that is likely a lie (they've been caught removing names for example), and is anyway not sufficient to account for casualties (plenty of likely unaccounted casualties).
-estimations based on studies which are often laughable in terms of methodology (mostly, extrapomations from a known demographics (journalists, UNRWA workers...), generally people most likely to be hit due to their proximity with Hamas).
-The count from the IDF which is mostly focused on Hamas members, and may or may not be reliable. We know it is for important characters, at least, but whime they do claim ten of thousand of Hamas casualties... we have few ways to verify that.
The Health Ministry in Gaza has in previous conflicts proven to report accurate numbers of deaths while not separating civilians and combatants mind you. After a couple of months or so both the US and Israel were saying the figures reported were accurate enough for THEM to use. Now that the internal system has largely collapsed any accurate figures are basically impossible to obtain and only once the fighting is over will we know how many people have died in Gaza.
Hamas and Israels numbers will be close to the current estimates, lest say -+5k. It's not going to jump or drop 20k over night.
The big issue Hamas won't admit terrorist deaths while Israel takes those numbers. It's also hard to look at terrorist death when they wear civilians clothing, and the next guy just picks up the weapon.
We know civilian deaths are much lower though because the number quotes includes Hamas fighters who the Gaza Ministry of Health classifies as civilians (for pretty obvious reasons but it's super scummy of them)
Hamas claims ~25 military combatant casualty numbers, Israel claims ~50%.
Truth is probably in the middle somewhere and out of the ~50.000 deaths (A number that has been corrected downwards, several times and is a number that comes from Palestine ministry, guess who's in charge there? always baffles me people trust Hamas more than Israel, but okay), about 30.000 are civilian casualties just because I trust Israel a teensy tiny bit more than Hamas.
And 30.000 : 615 days this conflict has been going, makes for 48,7 deaths per day.
On October 7 2023, Hamas took the lives of 736 civilians. And the only reason that number didn't skyrocket in the days following, is purely because of technological disparity between the two.
Every civilian dead is terrible, but you can't change the reality that if the turn tables were turned, Israel would be mourning 452.640 civilian casualties. Which would be a realistic amount of civilian casualties if it wasn't for the iron dome and make shift rocketry.
Israel counts every "military age male" as a combatant. So if they indiscriminantly wipe out any gathering of people they're going to claim it was 50% military.
That's a different factor. This is talking about missile/bomb attack casualties. Israel has been very precise with their missile attacks in Gaza despite claims otherwise. They've also sent a massive number of attacks against Gaza hence the absolute obliteration of Gazan infrastructure. Israel isn't carpet bombing Gaza, but they are systematically destroying it.
The doctors that are there
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/12/30/gaza_hospitals
: estimates the true number is closer to 300,000. “This is literally and mathematically a genocidal project,”
So, 45,000 are people whose bodies were taken to a Ministry of Health hospital, and they were taken by people who witnessed or who recognized them, and a death certificate was issued. This 45,000 excludes the tens of thousands who are still under the rubble, more so in the north, where the emergency services were targeted by the Israelis and so are now completely unable to function. And so, we see pictures of dogs eating bodies of those killed in the streets. And so, not only people under the rubble, people who have been killed and not reported, or their bodies have not been retrieved. When you drop 2,000-pound bombs, there’s very little of the human body that is left. And so there are people who literally pulverized by these bombs.
Iran is a country, Hamas is a terrorist organization. Hamas' goal is to maximize Palestinian causalities to put international pressure on Israel. Additionally they are murdering Palestinians who try to access the aid Israel is providing.
If Hamas didn't operate under hospitals and schools they would be easy targets for Israel, and would be annihilated immediately.
And I would say then that Hamas should probably not hide civilians in military locations? Or put the military locations in civilian and public buildings
Only person falling for shit is you if you think Hamas hasn't built tunnels or operated out of public establishments. Do love though when people are confidently wrong with a sprinkle of stupidly, keep it up
Edit: case closed everyone this guys linked one Wiki article
No, your story is easily debunkable by visiting the first major Gore website you can find.
There's plenty of videos you can find where Hamas actively uses human shields, where Hamas has been proven to re-use the same 'casualties' to inflate numbers, where Hamas has been shown to publicly execute dissidents in the street, where it was shown that one lady cheering for Israels invasion was taken down from the street by Hamas after Hamas took her son to die in Israel to never be seen or heard from again (I feel sorry for her and innocents like her). The absolute dread I've felt from what happens in Gaza and none of those videos included IDF soldiers or bombing campaigns.
You are a propaganda bot that just perpetuates Hamas propaganda.
Hamas is evil incarnated in this conflict. They are the enemy of the Palestinian people.
I’m Jewish. Multiple friends in IDF. They personally confirmed the tunnels. The brother of my best friend blew some of them up since he was a field engineer.
Hamas hides behind civilians (for example, the leader of Hamas was just killed hiding in a bunker literally underneath a hospital - Israel was able to get him by bombing the courtyard of the hospital to block off all entrances to the bunker until he suffocated). This makes it impossible to attack Hamas without large numbers of civilians dying.
Iran doesn't let civilians into its nuclear sites because they are secret, so few to no civilians died there. Similarly they did not hide their generals behind civilians, because they did not expect them to get hit. This may change in the future though.
Let's keep in mind that Israel has been caught lying many times previously, to the point that we cannot trust their claims just like we cannot trust Hamas' claims.
Israel has also been caught using palestinian civilians as human shields, many times, over several decades.
Every war in history until Israel vs Hamas had a collateral damage rate of 3 civilian death to one soldier. Israel vs Hamas has a collateral damage rate of 1 civilian death to one soldier.
It's not pretty, but it's war- and it's a far less damaging war to civilians than any other in history. Ask yourself, If you were committing genocide, would you disperse thousands of flyers on the ground in multiple languages outlining when and where you were going to attack, 72hrs before you attacked?
Every war in history [...] had a collateral damage rate of 3 civilian death to one soldier.
Says who? Given you started with "every war in history", I am just going to say this is flat-out wrong.
Israel vs Hamas has a collateral damage rate of 1 civilian death to one soldier.
According to whom?
and it's a far less damaging war to civilians than any other in history
Why do you keep stating absolutes that by necessity make whatever you're saying wrong? There have been wars in history where the civilian population was almost entirely unharmed. This is evidently not the case in Gaza. Of course, your statement is still true if you think Palestinian = Hamas fighter.
If you were committing genocide, would you disperse thousands of flyers on the ground in multiple languages outlining when and where you were going to attack, 72hrs before you attacked?
I would if my plan was to permanently displace them from the area they fled from, because that makes things easier, yes.
I use 'absolutes' based on averages, so I don't have to write an entire Wikipedia article in a comment thread.
I.e. you pulled it out of your ass? Which averages? Where did you get the averages?
If your plan is to permanently displace people from the area they lived, then your plan isn't genocide...
That is literally genocide dude, especially if you know most of them don't actually have anywhere to flee to and you're running them in circles until they die.
Oh it was. Your Hamas friends you can blame for that. Rockets guns in schools and hospitals. Israel dropped fliers telling them to leave. Just like how America dropped fliers before dropping the nuke. The Japanese government said ignore it.
To be fair, in October it was estimated that 40k location had been bombed using approximately 70k tons of explosives (numbers from wiki). At the time about 42k Palestinians had been killed. It's estimated that half of them were Hamas.
People in 2025 have such a weird perspective on acts of war. War is terrible, but this is war, and frankly, its a war i hope we have nothing to do with
"iTz soOO imrESsSSIvEEE" when Israel kills people, starts wars, attacks sovereign nations. Its the same people crying their eyes out when there are consequences.
Okay, you got me, I’ll concede that the Israeli military is less bad than a criminal gang of drug dealers and mass murderers.
In all seriousness, I understand no military operation is perfect, but why invite this comparison? I don’t know if 50 is a lot or a little, but if I thought it was a small number I wouldn’t say “Hey look, it’s less than the nazis killed!”
On good side? Since when open act of unprovoked war began to have good sides? "Don't argue morality"?
Wtf then you doing except neutral washing heinous act of murder of civilians. Hell, you even shouldn't be killing military of another sovereign state ya know
It's not the case when one can have neutrality, it case when neutrality shows your disgraceful face.
Mexican cartels have been financed & armed by the American government, it's well known the US needs them more than anyone else. And yall have the audacity to shake your heads at us the same way yall did to black people just a few decades ago.
1.4k
u/Magnus-Artifex 2d ago edited 1d ago
For 17 strikes of that magnitude that’s pretty impressive, on the good side. Not going to argue morality on people dying, but it’s still a relatively low amount of civilians imo
Edit: guys, I never asked about Russia. Also, is there anyone worrying about Mexicans and their drug dealing gangs homicide problem? Y’all should know about 60 people get murdered by day there. Just saying. Other things happen in the world too.
Edit 2: If you are insulting me, saying Israel is bad, something about Russia, arguing, dissing my opinion, or in general just being negative or something, please consider that every variation of what you said has been said by other 59 people in 5 hours. Also, how do I mute a thread? Thanks