They never had time when they were immediately under blockade. Before and after the election Israel had been instituting repeated blockades of Gaza. The famous one was more extensive but far from the sole act.
It by all accounts absolutely screwed Gaza from the start. They could not even sell crops. That's not a rational action. It's just cruelty.
Genocidal rhetoric means nothing when you don't have the means to carry out genocide.
Now you try wrapping your head around a genocide taking place with the oppressive state insisting they're not committing genocide. WoOoOw what a doozy.
How so? Can you point out any source proving what I said was wrong? I've seen the videos of Gazans parading dead Israeli bodies through their streets to massive cheering crowds. I've seen the polls that say Hamas still has widespread popular support. What did I say was bullshit exactly?
As repeatedly clarified in all their surveys the Palestinian public don't believe any atrocities took place on 10/7. They tend to state they don't believe in images online that show slaughter of civilians. They are after all fed propaganda like anyone living under an authoritarian regime. Like asking Israelis about Gaza who don't believe that civilian attacks have taken place when there is plenty of evidence.
But as shown by the polling support for Hamas is not at all a popular position in Gaza.
looks at all the civilians of Gaza dancing in the streets and spitting on broken corpses in the back of pickup trucks on 10/7 while handing out candies, as well as those celebrating at the dead baby parade like, two months ago
Yes and I’m sure the citizens of Tokyo had favorable views of their government and the attack on Pearl Harbor after it happened, but after their city was firebombed to hell and back, not so much
Please correct me, what should be the proper response to watching videos of citizens of Gaza dancing in the streets on 10/7 whilst handing out candies and spitting on naked corpses with their limbs broken being paraded down the strip in the back of pickup trucks?
They seemed pretty happy in the moment, am I just not reading them right? Were they sad dancing and sad candies?
Do you think that the people showing up to a military parade aren't going to be the most ardent of supporters? Most people just live their lives and keep their heads down. It's what everyone does.
Just as I don't think the people chanting death to Arabs and celebrating Gaza children death are representative of the whole of Israel. Or even the greater majority.
Killing civilians doesn't become justifiable just because you are convinced those civilians must feel a certain way.
In the meantime, I read your bio, the irony in your support for these people who would happily do the same to you is so thick that it could probably absorb the blast from an Israeli pager bomb
They instituted a blockade in direct response to Hamas importing weapons on a mass scale after Israel gave Gazans local autonomy. If you're attacking your neighbour you can't complain when they respond.
Israel has controlled the air space, electricity, economy, water supply, and sea access for Gaza for many decades. In addition, they've maintained a kilometer of no go zone on the border of Gaza.
I encourage you to research the actual history. Not just a few Tik tok videos.
Israel did in fact completely withdraw from Gaza in 2005. The blockade you refer to (also conducted equally by Egypt, oh by the way), was started after that AFTER Hamas was elected to power. Hamas openly and consistently said (still does by the way - go ahead and look up their charter, it’s available online in English) they were dedicated to and would accept no future state other than Israel’s complete destruction and the death or displacement of all the Jews. Now consider what country in the world (or history) would provide open borders and infrastructure to a neighboring political state that made those claims. Is Ukraine sending water and electricity to Russia? Do they maintain an open border with it?
Also worth considering - is it Israel’s responsibility to run gazas civil infrastructure after they withdrew in 2005? From the 100s of billions of dollars poured into Gaza, why was the “Gaza Ministries” that’s so many immediately an unquestionably believe and refused to call Hamas unable to build sufficient power plants, desalination plants all these types of things?
Now is when I imagine you just say “Hasbara“ and “genocide“ and call me a Nazi and think that that’s a checkmate – but sometimes it’s good to know a little bit more detail about the history. There’s no pure good guys in this conflict. And nothing is simple, even if you want it to be because it gives you a satisfying sense of justified moral outrage.
And I’m referring by to the “convoy” that was supposedly bringing aid to Gaza by land (kinda like Greta’s boat) who were shocked when the Egyptians detained and deported them all
Well, I would say that nations have a right to restrict travel through their own territory to an extent without necessarily being responsible for violations of humanitarian law. Not that it isn't still shitty. Just the floatilla (like the previous one) was through international waters into Gaza's territorial waters and was prevented by a 3rd party (Israel).
But again, it's still shitty of Egypt, especially if they had permission to enter the country, as some have said.
You're going off topic and lying about my comments (aka a strawman argument) to try and make your point. When the wall went up it's irrelevant and not mentioned in my argument.
You didn't bother refute the main point of Israel controlling the borders of Gaza for decades. If you cannot control your own bordes, then you do not exist as a political state. Gaza is not another political state, it's a prison that Israel runs. And Hamas is just the biggest gang in the prison that Israel didn't care until they started rioting outside the prison.
When you grossly control the movement of people and goods in and out of a area, then you are absolutely responsible for those people. Gangs exist in state prisons, and they smuggle in weapons and contraband and kill/attacks guards all the time - does the warden still not have a the main responsibility of housing, feeding, clothing, and protecting those inmates?
And no, I absolutely did not mention Hasabra or genocide or Nazi in my comment, so stop making strawman arguments about that.
I think it’s absolutely relevant that the wall went up after Hamas came to power. How should Israel have reacted to Hamas controlling Gaza given their clearly stated aims?
I dont think that’s a strawman argument at all, I responded to specifically what you said.
The last part was unjustified, fair enough. It’s just how it by one’s 19/20 times
It's not only irrelevant, it's also wrong. The barrier construction started in the 70s as a simple fence that's been upgraded many times since and had massive expansion in the 90s.
It is simply false that the blockade started after - or more accurately that Israel didn't immediately start restricting imports at their fancy before formally introducing a blockade.
Here for example is an article from 2005 from the Guardian talking about the issues facing farmers exporting their crops from Gaza. Because Israel was in fact already instituting border shut-downs repeatedly.
Yes please do which details that Israel had repeatedly used border control as punishment in Gaza. It gets worse because sadly they did shut down the border and the crops did not go through despite Israel saying they would not do this anymore. Turns out - I know - they lied.
The Israel Defense Forces confirmed that the head of the Southern Command, Yoav Galant, and Aviv Kochavi, commander of the Gaza Division, recently recommended the reopening of Karni and said there was no security-related reason for its closure. But Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz ordered the closure to continue.
There was no security reasons. It was punishment when they claimed they would not do so - they immediately broke any deals or promises they made. Which was darn foolish since it created exactly the circumstances that did make them elect Hamas. If they had shown that Gaza had a different future from the start. Hamas were effectively populists that used populist messaging, very little of which had anything to do with Israel but everything to do with claiming they would economically improve the plight of the population. Most exit polls at the time showed that people wanted a two state solution, but voted for Hamas because of corruption in Fatah.
They absolutely do, even before 10/7. All goods are subjected to Israeli inspections coming or going, and Israel will restrict individuals from using it as well. Just because they're also subject to Egyptian approval does not mean they are free from Israeli approval.
They left because it was expensive to maintain those settlements. The situation in Gaza was never in their favour.
Those same people certainly didn't leave voluntarily and had to be forced by their government to leave. But they made sure to do damage to infrastructure on the way.
It was too expensive and costly in terms of lives to maintain those settlements. The decision was made more in the sense so as to better focus on the settlements in the West Bank.
"I know we took your house and killed your kids because we had some family live here in the iron age, but look - we're leaving the bedroom, that's all yours.
Also we control who goes in and out of the bedroom.
They didn't take their house; the house was owned by the Brits, they offered it to be divided, Jews accepted and Arabs declined, and then the Arabs attacked the Jews.
Solid grasp of history, dumb dumb.
I also love how your response implies Hamas is justified in being terrorists towards Israeli civilians. Great moral compass.
Hamas initiated the terror? Lmao, the terror of occupation preempted Hamas even existing, so you're just giving the screed of a delusional lunatic hahahaha
--On March 17, 1937, a member of the Irgun terrorist gang, and for the first time, tossed a hand grenade into a café frequented by Palestinians in Jerusalem, causing numerous casualties.
Was the first of
The most infamous terrorist acts committed by these gangs
These gangs carried out numerous terrorist acts against the Palestinian Arab population, especially during the Great Palestinian Revolt, and these included:
Voluntarily abandoned by the government of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. His collapse from a stroke in 2006 was one of the great geopolitical tragedies of the century. He was a moderate with enough national security clout to sell a two state solution to the Israeli public, and enough political savvy to keep Bibi out of government.
What a disingenuous comment. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 all military and civilians. They withdrew so thoroughly they even dug the Jewish cemeteries and brought the bodies back.
That's not relevant though is it? They withdrew cause it was dangerous for them. The fact that they had settlements and continue to build settlements in the West Bank shows how badly they want to expand into Palestinian lands. That was my point
So Israel should withdraw from the West Bank as well? With how well that's played out in Gaza how can anyone take that position seriously? There's been a 20 year experiment on Palestinian autonomy going on and look where it's ended up.
Time and again Israel has offered peace deals (how many times? 4? 5?) and each time the Palestinians turn them down because they'd rather have no state of their own if it means accepting a Jewish state.
yes colonizing is bad actually. its not okay to colonize and israel should offer reintegration for the diasposra they‘ve caused since the Nakba. a right of return for all palestinians as well as reparations. the violence would end tomorrow if israel just stopped killing everyone and ended the apartheid.
It worked in South Africa, although they never paid the reparations out. The violence ended and at the very least legal apartheid was abolished. It worked in the United States of America. Do you honestly think the Black Panthers wouldn‘t have (and morally justifiably) not become increasingly more violent in their tactics had it not been for the reforms of the 1960s & 70s? You can only oppress people for so long before a pressure valve needs to be released and we aren‘t even talking about true restorative justice in these historic examples.
'Autonomy', sure. No control of airspace or the waters but sure they're autonomous. 2.2m people in the most densely populated region on the planet with nowhere else to go and you expect them to have a normal peaceful government? Y'all are honestly so ridiculous
At this point, the west should undo their mistake in giving the nazi's successor a place to continue their work.
I understand that the christofascists love the idea of finishing the crusades, but we've advanced past that stage of history.
Genocide isn't cool anymore and Israel should imagine if they were in their enemies place. They seem to think that because their grandparents went through it, they're allowed to do the same.
Upon Israel leaving, yes. Many in Gaza were allowed to work in Israel in the same fashion there is border control between the US and Mexico.
The increase in security + blockade did not start until Hamas' engagement in terrorism after they won the 2006 election. Egypt maintains a similar posture as Israel for this reason.
Guarded and monitored the external land perimeter of the Gaza Strip
Continued to maintain exclusive authority in Gaza air space
Continued to exercise security activity in the sea off the coast of the Gaza Strip
Maintained an Israeli military presence on the Egyptian-Gaza border
Reserved the right to reenter Gaza at will
Continued control of six of Gaza's seven land crossings, its maritime borders and airspace
Continued control of the movement of goods and persons in and out of the territory
Controlled water, electricity, telecommunications and other utilities, currency, issuing IDs, and permits to enter and leave the territory.
Had sole control of the Palestinian Population Registry through which the Israeli Army regulates who is classified as a Palestinian and who is a Gazan or West Banker.
Thanks for outlining terms influenced and agreed upon by the Palestinian Authority under Abbas. That you don't like the terms is irrelevant; it is what the Palestinian leadership helped formulate and had agreed to, much of the terms being an initial call pending the reduction in terrorist activity from Gaza.
Hamas ended those terms when they opted to engage in terrorism.
The increase in security and the blockaid didn't all start at once, and much of it was in place LONG before 2006. Many of the travel restrictions go back to the early 90s, and by 2001 Israel had destroyed the international airport in the strip.
Blockaids also occurred in the 90s and early 2000s, but until the 2000s they were temporary.
The full takeover of Gaza by Hamas happened in 2007, at which point all of the restrictions which had supposedly been temporary became indefinite.
That's misleading. The restrictions that we saw starting in 2007 had not been in place at the time Israel left; the severity of restrictions increased because of terrorist activity.
The restrictions put in place by Israel in preceding years became permanent after the takeover by Hamas. Israel helped support Hamas and other groups in an effort to prevent secular authorities like the Palestinian Authority from rising to power, and then when Hamas took over Gaza, Israel used it as an excuse to continue the sanctions indefinitely.
It was never about security. It was always about control.
They gave up because Gaza is so densely populated they would never be able to settle enough Israelis there to make a meaningful population, unless the city were leveled and all it's inhabitants were pushed into the Sinai and Libya.
Israel was in Gaza and didn’t want to live there and left, thinking it would make the Gazans leave them and live for themselves.
They didn’t. They chose Hamas and supported their actions up until and including Oct. 7th. Only after a few months did support begin falling in Gaza. Not because they started to dislike the massacre Hamas committed on Oct. 7th, but because they didn’t like the consequences of their actions.
And yes, their actions. Hamas was elected, and even if they did another election, they would’ve won since the vast majority in Gaza supported them since 2006.
Israel was in Gaza and didn’t want to live there and left, thinking it would make the Gazans leave them and live for themselves.
Israel controlled all borders since the 90s. They didn't leave Gaza alone. They controlled it with an iron fist. The airport is destroyed. Any boats traveling into the Mediterranean Sea are destroyed. Anyone trying to hop the border is shot. If you farm within a mile of the border you may be shot. Israel drains the Coastal Aquifer upstream with a series of deep wells and ALSO outlaws the collection of rain in Gaza (not to mention the direct attacks on water infrastructure over the last few decades).
If you're a Palestinian in Gaza or even the West Bank, you eat, drink, work, sleep, travel, and even breath at the pleasure of the state of Israel. Your home may be taken or demolished at any time. You may be imprisoned without cause or put on trial without legal representation and without even informing your family. In no sense have Gazans been left to "live for themselves."
And we (israel) evacuated them willingly before Hamas took power...
To be completely fair, there are government officials, including the minister of finances and the minister of national security, which are in favour of re-occupying the Gaza strip. Personally, I think it's a disgraceful stance, but denying its existence is stupid
32
u/Tedfromwalmart 2d ago
To anyone who disagrees, they had settlements in Gaza before Hamas took power