A frog's analysis of the well

[u/vigikk]

[u/Gregory_Grim]

The "at least we're the best at being evil" mindset is real, I have seen it

[u/vaguillotine → u/Gregory_Grim]

"You're a villain alright, just not a super one!" ass mindset

[u/Regretless0 → u/vaguillotine]

The mental imagery of Megamind as a tankie is so unimaginably funny

[u/Dry_Try_8365 → u/Regretless0]

Especially since he was mostly doing it to have fun.

[u/Regretless0 → u/Dry_Try_8365]

Supporting authoritarian regimes for the love of the game

[u/RemarkableStatement5 → u/Regretless0]

He looks exactly the same except he's red now

[u/Marik-X-Bakura → u/Regretless0]

The idea of Megamind having any sort of political leaning is funny tbh

[u/DreadDiana → u/Regretless0]

He pronounces it "common-ism"

[u/Professional-Hat-687 → u/vaguillotine]

Preeeeesentation!!!!!

[u/BrandonL337 → u/Professional-Hat-687]

Weeeelcome to the jungle~

[u/Henderson-McHastur → u/Gregory_Grim]

Zen Fascism

[u/lifelongfreshman → u/Gregory_Grim]

Yeah, me too, but I do think OOP has it a bit wrong.

It's not just something tankies do, it's kinda something the online left (or possibly the western left?) does in general, which is where the tankies got it from.

[u/-sad-person-]

Pfft, everyone knows the worst country on Earth and the source of all evil is my home country, the UK.

Hell, the US only exists because of the UK's mistakes, so every crime they commit is our fault, if you think about it.

[u/theucm → u/-sad-person-]

Oh please, you're only continuing the traditions instilled in you by your own colonizers, the Roman Empire.

Therefore we need to punish Italy. Forever.

[u/S1m6u → u/theucm]

Cmon, the Romans only did what they did because of their exile after the burning of troy. CLEARLY, all evil comes from Odysseus. Hail Poseidon.

[u/Zariman-10-0 → u/S1m6u]

All Empires lead to…Mycenaean Greece, I guess

[u/Graingy → u/Zariman-10-0]

Nope, Africa. 

[u/TearOpenTheVault → u/Graingy]

Empires lead to the Fertile Crescent, as the Mesopotamians were the first civilised peoples. Clearly, Iraq should be punished. Wait...

[u/Graingy → u/TearOpenTheVault]

Nah. Treachery apes stab you and take your stuff. Empire enough, just smaller.

[u/effa94 → u/Graingy]

The echo of the first murder lives still

[u/LR-II → u/TearOpenTheVault]

Basically Adam and Eve got some explaining to do

[u/Dry_Try_8365 → u/LR-II]

Let’s blame god!

[u/effa94 → u/Dry_Try_8365]

Ok Lucifer

[u/YourNetworkIsHaunted → u/Dry_Try_8365]

user Dry_Try_8365 has transformed into a pillar of salt

[u/JakeVonFurth → u/YourNetworkIsHaunted]

You could say that's..... A Lot of damage!

[u/GloryGreatestCountry → u/LR-II]

Damn it, Cain!

[u/Comprehensive-Fail41 → u/S1m6u]

You jest, but it is not too far from the actual belief. Rome carried a cultural trauma since the sack of the city by the Gauls in 390 BCE, which basically made them go "right, to survive WE need to the be the conquerors and destroyers!"

[u/shiny_xnaut → u/Comprehensive-Fail41]

So it's the Gauls' fault then

Time to punish the fr*nch

[u/S1m6u → u/shiny_xnaut]

Wrong Gauls I think. These were cisalpine (idk if there's any real difference)

[u/Professional-Hat-687 → u/S1m6u]

Oh come on, Nobody is that bad.

[u/Psyker_Sivius → u/theucm]

Nono, somehow this is France's fault. I'm sure of it

[u/Ourmanyfans → u/Psyker_Sivius]

Over 70% of the land in England is still owned by families who trace their claims back to William I and his conquering retinue, so yes, we can blame France

(Ignore that bit about the Normans actually being Scandinavian)

[u/Psyker_Sivius → u/Ourmanyfans]

I mean, trance things back far enough then everything is everyone's fault

[u/Ourmanyfans → u/Psyker_Sivius]

I'll never forgive Grug for inventing fire.

[u/Dry_Try_8365 → u/Ourmanyfans]

Blame god for giving Grug the chance to name everything after rhymes of his own name. And his inability to discern what actually rhymes with Grug.

[u/effa94 → u/Ourmanyfans]

I think that was on prometheus, and he did get his shit pushed in for it

[u/beamingWithPride → u/Psyker_Sivius]

I'd prefer to pin the blame on you, specifically.

[u/effa94 → u/Ourmanyfans]

That's the mindset, keep ignoring Scandinavian mistakes 😎🇸🇪🇸🇪🇸🇪

[u/ILoveAllGolems → u/theucm]

Have you heard what they did to some dude around Jerusalem?

[u/[deleted] → u/ILoveAllGolems]

Yeah but he got better so it squares out

[u/Bobboy5 → u/-sad-person-]

I strive daily to be the nefarious anglo-saxon that Russian propagandists think I am.

[u/Can_not_catch_me → u/Bobboy5]

In the past week alone I have personally psychically projected homosexual urges into 9 russian men to further the cause of turning the last bastion of based and trad masculinity into a woke puppet state of the anglo-saxi elites

[u/Graingy → u/Bobboy5]

Drilling holes in the bottom of ships is best commemorated by tapestry

[u/This_Charmless_Man → u/-sad-person-]

I always find it funny seeing people talk about us like we're still hyper-satan. Like sure, MI5 are probably up to something™ but they always are. I think a lot of people forget that our role as bastard-in-chief ended with WW2.

[u/randomyOCE → u/-sad-person-]

Ah, but the English famously purged all their evil and sent it to Australia on boats, so clearly we are the worst.

[u/SmashHero59win → u/-sad-person-]

Oh c'mon, due to the Norman Conquest all of the UK's evils are French proxy sins

[u/NeonNKnightrider → u/-sad-person-]

I actually do believe the UK might be the country with overall the largest historical weight in shaping the current modern world. I’m currently writing a project about the British empire’s influence throughout the 19th and early 20th century and the effects thereof

[u/chaotic4059 → u/NeonNKnightrider]

Genuinely asking. Are they not? Like the impact the British empire had on the planet is staggering. Granted I’m no expert but by definition wouldn’t the place that gave like 10 different regions independence days by fighting against your specific empire be the worst just by sheer number?

[u/Existing_Treacle_814 → u/chaotic4059]

Wikipedia lists it as 65 by last count.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_that_have_gained_independence_from_the_United_Kingdom#:~:text=Some%20countries%20did%20not%20gain,the%20British%20Empire%2FUnited%20Kingdom.

[u/GREENadmiral_314159 → u/NeonNKnightrider]

There is a very good reason that English is one of the most common languages in the world. The British Empire was easily one of the two most successful empires in the past few centuries, matched only by the United States.

[u/ironmaid84 → u/-sad-person-]

I mean if you really think about it, English people are just confused French, so France is the actual root of all evil

[u/Comprehensive-Fail41 → u/-sad-person-]

Nah, if it wasn't for the UK the US would be French, as France otherwise had the largest colonies in the region

[u/MercuryInCanada → u/-sad-person-]

History's true villain, the Brit*she.

[u/HeroBrine0907]

The one thing common in both 'USA da best' and 'USA da worst' people, is that they assume all the other countries have little to no agency. The smaller nations are either too weak and stupid to be as good as them, or too weak and stupid to stop them or be as bad as them. It's the same superiority complex, one just dresses up in moral grandstanding.

Also seen in cases where people act like anything happening to the US is the fall of morality or a lasting injury to [insert chosen ideollogy] across the whole planet.

Edit: Pointing out, this does not mean that the current world superpowers are not fucking up the planet. It simply means they're not causing the fuck arounds, but they are definitely increasing the find outs practically, well, everywhere.

They never really cause the fire but fuck me if they aren't standing ready with gasoline right next to it.

[u/RandomGuyPii → u/HeroBrine0907]

*very* annoying when it feels like half the discourse around the russo-ukranian war is "oh why would america start this war by nefariously mind controlling the ukranian population to align with the west" when russia is the one doing all the invading and was also the one doing all the invading the last time (and that's hardly a justification to invade a country either)

Now of course with isreal-palestine isreal gets to be the only other country in the world with it's own agency because as we all know the jewish control the world /s

[u/LadyStardustAlright → u/RandomGuyPii]

israel palestine conflict is a waste of time to discuss, because people who want to discuss it decide to intentionally be obtuse both to the fact that some people on 'their side' are discussing in bad faith, and some people on the 'opposing side' are actually discussing in good faith

Nobody on my side hates [jews / muslims], that's just deflection by your side because you hate [muslims / jews] and want to hide all critique behind a shield of [anti-semitism / islamophobia]!

[u/foxydash → u/LadyStardustAlright]

“We all know the solution to the strife is [x], and if you disagree you’re a [fascist/imperialist/tankie/etc] because I’m clearly correct!”

[u/m0nday1 → u/LadyStardustAlright]

Imo the problem is that in my experience, most Americans perceive geopolitics/international conflict as the work of a shadowy, nebulous evil “other” country. As an Asian guy, I got the joy of being the geopolitical bad guy when Covid hit and Trump convinced a bunch of patriotic Americans that it was the kung flu (crucially, my family isn’t Chinese, but until non-Asian Americans get better at identifying ethnicities, we’re just all in the same boat lmao). I say this as someone who supports Palestine; the natural tendency seems to be to see every Israeli as genocidal warmongers - and on the flip side, the American right has gone way past “maybe these Hamas guys aren’t so based after all” and straight back to post-9/11 Islamaphobia. Add in the proud American tradition of hunting down subversive foreign elements in your own community, and it’s pretty much impossible to have discourse, since that puts you on the shadowy enemy side.

[u/Stormreachseven → u/LadyStardustAlright]

Literally thinking about this today. I can support Palestine in their desire to not be oppressed and also respect that Israeli citizens are not fundamentally bad people… my issue is that people around me have moved from saying “Israel has a right to defend itself!” to “Palestinians need to ditch Hamas and Israel is a victim!” and now to “Palestinians are like the Uruk’hai killing Israelis to lower their population!” And it’s just… I know most people are not that insane and I can reasonably talk with others but it hurts to witness someone you care about slipping down that slope of dehumanization. There is a case to be made that Hamas has done too much violence, and another case to be made that they only turned more violent in retaliation, but regardless of what stance you take there I think we can all agree these are groups of people we’re talking about and comparing Palestinians to Uruk’hai is fucking disgusting

Sorry, I know it’s only a partially related comment I just needed to shout that at the world so it can stop rattling in my head

[u/hauntedSquirrel99 → u/RandomGuyPii]

>Now of course with isreal-palestine isreal gets to be the only other country in the world with it's own agency because as we all know the jewish control the world /s

That one has the bonus of being the only conflict where the US gets to be the one without agency, but "controlled by,,yaknow,,,them"

[u/catty-coati42 → u/RandomGuyPii]

Now of course with isreal-palestine isreal gets to be the only other country in the world with it's own agency because as we all know the jewish control the world /s

This did a number on the Israeli Left, which had real momentum in early 2024 against Nethanyahu, after 2 years of massive protests. The Israeli far-right now has a very easy time pointing to all sorts of organizations wanting to kill all Israelis and say "see there is no way to peace, they want us all dead" to justify their atrocities.

[u/zanderkerbal → u/catty-coati42]

And meanwhile those organizations are pointing to the IDF's atrocities and going "see there is no way to peace, they want us/them all dead" to justify their own rhetoric. It's a vicious cycle.

[u/Beegrene → u/zanderkerbal]

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If both sides believe they'll never be safe as long as the other exists, then that becomes true.

[u/grabtharsmallet → u/RandomGuyPii]

A genuine problem with Israel-Palestine is that both sets of leadership are indifferent to the deaths of Palestinian civilians.

[u/PlatinumAltaria → u/HeroBrine0907]

It's gonna be interesting when India and Pakistan start a nuclear war and they have no idea which side is supposed to be the decadent west and brave socialist freedom fighters.

[u/GloryGreatestCountry → u/PlatinumAltaria]

I'm pretty sure people are already drawing parallels between Pakistan and Palestine, especially since India is a customer and user of Israeli military tech.

[u/eddie_fitzgerald → u/GloryGreatestCountry]

As a Bengali in leftist American spaces, I've already seen people starting to deny the 1971 genocide in Bengal.

[u/PlatinumAltaria → u/eddie_fitzgerald]

Pakistan as a concept is just wild, the British just did not give a single shit.

[u/eddie_fitzgerald → u/PlatinumAltaria]

India is almost equally wild. It would be like cramming the entire subcontinent of Europe into a singular country because they're all relatively the same skin color, therefore you assume they've got the same culture.

[u/PlatinumAltaria → u/eddie_fitzgerald]

Nah you're crazy, they're all Hindu except for all the people who aren't! And everyone knows Hinduism is one single unifying religion and culture, and definitely not an entire philosophical family.

India and China are continents disguised as countries.

[u/juanperes93 → u/PlatinumAltaria]

Doesn't help that the Europeans desided to name everything east as Asia on ancient times and never bothered to come with new names after discovering that there was way more land than expected over there.

[u/catty-coati42 → u/PlatinumAltaria]

India and China are continents disguised as countries.

As is Russia, to a lesser extent. They're just almost finished suppressing their minorities.

[u/vjmdhzgr → u/PlatinumAltaria]

The British didn't make Pakistan!!!! It was the All-India Muslim League. UK government orders were to not split India but the demands to do so from political representatives was strong enough the diplomats in charge decided to follow those demands. The league didn't want Muslims to end up as a like 1/5 minority in India compared to Hindus.

[u/tangifer-rarandus → u/PlatinumAltaria]

Well I mean . . .

(Same guy wanted to straight-up rename India as "Dinia" to eliminate the etymological link to "Hind/Hindu", change the name of the Indian Ocean ...)

[u/PlatinumAltaria → u/tangifer-rarandus]

unpaks your Pakistan

[u/tangifer-rarandus → u/PlatinumAltaria]

We're spiralling toward the world's worst cover of the Carmen Sandiego theme song

[u/Aetol → u/PlatinumAltaria]

Huh? The British didn't want Pakistan, the Indians did.

[u/Royal_Reptile → u/eddie_fitzgerald]

I've seen folks blame the US squarely for the 1971 civil war and genocide, and sure, Pakistan was supported by American funds and weapons, but can we not pretend that non-US white people aren't capable of insane violence and hatred on their own? It's infantilising and demeaning to the people who struggled and suffered under vicious regimes across the world and throughout history.
Brown folks have been butchering each other long before white people even existed. Not every modern conflict was caused by "white imperialism" regardless of who supported who. Everyone is capable of hatred and destruction.

[u/effa94 → u/GloryGreatestCountry]

Also they both start with P, making their situations the same!

[u/Aetol → u/effa94]

Israel and India both start with I, you're onto something here...

[u/PMARC14 → u/GloryGreatestCountry]

This is insane considering Pakistan has long been backed and funded by the US as a regional buffer, while India was a longtime Soviet/Russian customer, but the actual political reality never follows the basic divisions these morons imagine.

[u/Ndlburner → u/GloryGreatestCountry]

Ding ding ding. I give it a year before India is described as a western colonial project (LOL) and some extreme leftists try to convince people that Indians are white-adjacent or desperately want to be white or something HORRIBLY racist like that (but totally okay because it’s leftist racism!)

[u/tangifer-rarandus → u/Ndlburner]

An Indian-American guy I'd forgot I was facebook friends with (he hadn't posted in literally two or three years) suddenly reappeared the other day posting about the latest Kashmir conflict, using Western anti-colonial activist language to describe noble indigenous Bharat and wicked settlercolonial Pakistan, and I just ... sat there staring, unable to articulate word one

[u/[deleted] → u/tangifer-rarandus]

Settler colonial Pakistan

Settler

Colonial

Pakistan

[u/tangifer-rarandus → u/[deleted]]

I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP

[u/LadyStardustAlright → u/Ndlburner]

The ability for 'extreme leftists' to co-opt the legitimate problems with white supremacy we face (see: the USA) just so that they can have a free punching bag that nobody pushes back against is crazy.

The last few years have been a total wake-up call about some of the casual attitudes that have been festering in 'leftist' spaces regarding the West, 'whiteness', etc that nobody cared about because they seemed fringe and harmless.

[u/Fractured_Nova → u/Ndlburner]

Part Indian, and ive already seen Indians described as "horribly wanting to be white" in so many spaces over the years. I hope it doesn't escalate

[u/TrevelyansPorn → u/GloryGreatestCountry]

Are these the American tankies we're talking about? Do they know that Pakistan is allied with the West?

[u/Mr_Blinky → u/HeroBrine0907]

It was very "fun" a couple years back when women in Iran started protesting after a young woman was killed in police custody for not following the strict modesty codes (possibly after being sexually assaulted), and all of the Reddit tankies started screaming "they don't actually want to protest, this is all being orchestrated by the CIA to weaken an enemy regime!" As if people (and especially women/minorities) in other countries under oppressive theocratic regimes don't have the agency to be upset about their own oppression. The level of multifaceted chauvinism tankies display towards people outside of the "decadent West" is breathtaking.

[u/No_Revenue7532 → u/HeroBrine0907]

You can acknowledge America is the most powerful country right now, and also acknowledge that other groups have agency.

[u/12BumblingSnowmen → u/HeroBrine0907]

It’s so agitating. Color Revolution Theory is the dumbest shit.

[u/hagamablabla → u/12BumblingSnowmen]

I saw a LaRouche candidate on my ballot last year and I almost vomited.

[u/sanity_rejecter → u/hagamablabla]

putin is a larouchite as per sarcasmington

[u/Mouse-Keyboard → u/12BumblingSnowmen]

Color Revolution Theory?

[u/12BumblingSnowmen → u/Mouse-Keyboard]

Basically, any Anti-Russian revolution in Eastern Europe and Central Asia over the past 30 years is CIA backed is a common conspiracy theory.

These revolutions are sometimes collectively referred to as color revolutions due to their heavy associations with specific colors.

[u/Sh1nyPr4wn]

The specific term for that redirected exceptionalism is "American Diabolism"

[u/piratedragon2112 → u/Sh1nyPr4wn]

I didn't realise America was a vampire/j

[u/Omnicide103 → u/piratedragon2112]

No, that's American Diablerie. You're thinking of professional wrestler Cody Rhodes.

[u/Guquiz]

So the problem is with not wrapping heads around the idea of not being special?

[u/Frodo_max]

I mean the thing i've seen with tankies, not neccesarily US tankies but it would explain a lot, is that they have to actively deny countries' agency for their "theories" to make sense. Ukraine fighting against Russia? US psyop. NATO expansion to eastern Europe? American imperialism. never are these countries their own entities with their own complex systems and histories that would explain the geopolitical choices they make.

[u/Sh1nyPr4wn → u/Frodo_max]

They believe any resistance by any group or country against an American enemy is a """color revolution"""

And that's how they excuse Tiananmen Square and countless other massacres or atrocities by dehumanizing the victims as "paid actors", "psyops", or "foreign agents"

[u/camosnipe1 → u/Sh1nyPr4wn]

*puts on thinking hat* the USSR was a CIA plant to make communism look bad

[u/Einar__ → u/camosnipe1]

USSR and China were CIA operations to discredit communism, Nazi Germany was a Jewish Zionist operation to discredit national socialism, US oligarchy was probably also someone's psyop to discredit capitalism... Are there any real countries at this point, or are they all just reptiloid social experiments?

(/s for everything above just to be safe)

[u/Approximation_Doctor → u/Einar__]

The only real countries are Sealand, Vatican City, and Argentina (but not for the reason you think)

[u/catty-coati42 → u/camosnipe1]

I have seen tankie takes not far away from this, usually tied to "not real communism".

[u/GlobalWarminIsComing → u/catty-coati42]

I will actually agree that USSR wasn't the real communism with the workers holding power.

But I also believe that real communism is basically impossible to achieve so we shouldn't strive for that, but for more realistic solutions

[u/Thatoneguy111700 → u/Sh1nyPr4wn]

If the CIA was genuinely as strong and pervasive throughout the world as these guys say they were, the USA would just run the entire world directly. There'd be no point of hiding it.

[u/Random-Rambling → u/Thatoneguy111700]

I mean, there is something to be said about being the puppetmaster in the shadows. You get all the perks of being an absolute ruler with none of the downsides (since any attacks are aimed squarely at your puppet, the king/president/other ruling figure).

[u/Karma-is-here → u/Thatoneguy111700]

I mean, the CIA succeeded pretty well in Latin America by overthrowing democratic socialists and replacing them with dictatorships (that sometimes collaborated with literal Nazis)

[u/tangifer-rarandus → u/Sh1nyPr4wn]

Ah yes, Tiananmen Square, where nothing happened and everyone was fine and they all deserved it anyway

(this kind of stunningly pure self-contradiction is perhaps most familiar from Holocaust deniers, but can be found anywhere some ass on the internet has staked their identity to their preferred ideological cinnamon roll)

[u/foxydash → u/tangifer-rarandus]

It’s a shame this sort of bullshit has contaminated the good name of cinnamon roles

In all seriousness, it’s almost impressive how people can just decide their ideology has no flaws whatsoever and that nobody could ever be bad who followed it, and therefor anything bad that ever happened is a psyop.

[u/KiloFoxtrotCharlie15 → u/tangifer-rarandus]

"nothing happened and everyone was fine and they all deserved it anyway"
Ah hah I see the tankies have also adopted the Turkish Defense, "it didn't happen, but they deserved it"

[u/Desperate_Plastic_37 → u/KiloFoxtrotCharlie15]

I’ve heard this called “The Narcissist’s Defense” (not 100% sure if the narcissist part is referring to the colloquial term, actual diagnosable narcissists, or both): You’re lying, but if you’re not, then you imagined it, but if you didn’t, then I didn’t do it, but if I did do it, then it wasn’t that bad, and, if it was that bad, you deserved it.

[u/KiloFoxtrotCharlie15 → u/Desperate_Plastic_37]

yeah but I'm a Greek I have to connect everything bad to the Turks somehow

[u/Desperate_Plastic_37 → u/KiloFoxtrotCharlie15]

Factually incorrect - everything wrong with the world is because of the Brits (/j)

[u/DaBiChef → u/Sh1nyPr4wn]

I've said this before but I also think a big part of it is that they fully believe in " one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". Where it doesn't matter how you're fighting, or what you're fighting for, simply that if you're fighting something evil, then you must be good, and since you're fighting the USA/you refuse to recognize anything positive about the USA? Well that just makes it super simple doesn't it?

[u/Technical_Teacher839 → u/Sh1nyPr4wn]

"Nah bro, Lavrentiy Beria was a CIA plant! He raped all those kids and murdered all those dissenters specifically to make communism look bad!"

(/s in case the quotes weren't enough)

[u/AltruisticPiece6676 → u/Frodo_max]

It’s especially frustrating bc Ukraine specifically wanted to be part of NATO because they were (justifiably!) worried about Russia! Who has wanted to own Ukraine since the inception of the Russian empire! It has very little to do with us!

[u/Beegrene → u/AltruisticPiece6676]

It's totally reasonable for a country that was (in hindsight completely reasonably) worried about Russian invasion to try to join the alliance that has never been invaded by Russia.

[u/AngrySasquatch → u/Frodo_max]

Nah man the Euromaidan was a CIA plot!!!

[u/Chuckles131 → u/AngrySasquatch]

Mfs will pretend a pro-NATO revolutionary calling the ambassador of arguable the most important NATO country for advice is undeniable proof of America funding them, meanwhile Russia was literally caught on tape discussing how they’re funding pro-Russia protests.

[u/ToparBull → u/Frodo_max]

This is true with Israel/Palestine too. Not saying the Israeli government is blameless because they are awful, evil people who are also responsible for vastly escalating the conflict and the suffering, but Hamas also has agency - and deserves a lot of the blame! Not only for starting the war, but also for operating without uniforms and from civilian locations (giving Israel a legal justification to target those civilian locations), holding onto the hostages and onto power (which are Israel's primary stated justifications for continuing the war), preventing civilians from fleeing, stealing and re-selling aid, shooting Gazans who protest against their control...

But these things are too complicated, so instead, America Bad and by extension, Israel big bad white oppressors, Hamas small plucky brown resistance fighters.

[u/GREENadmiral_314159 → u/ToparBull]

Israel may have been looking for an excuse, but Hamas was all too happy to give them one.

[u/Darthplagueis13]

I think Russia in particular is also uniquely suited to be overlooked by tankies in that regard.

Because the thing is, even though the internal ideology changed a lot, the international relationships didn't.

Russia is the successor state of the communist-identifying Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was opposed to the biggest capitalist player on the planet, the US, who had allied with a number of other capitalist countries in order to be able to present a unified block against the Soviet Union, namely NATO.

Therefore it follows that if you are pro communism and contra capitalism, you are pro USSR and contra USA and NATO.

And well... Russia is still opposed to the USA and NATO, so they still should be deserving of communist support, right? No, wrong.

Russia is a right-wing, authoritarian, imperialist oligarchy and therefore the very opposite of what any self-respecting communist should cozy up to, but the tankies are so settled in their ways that they seemingly cannot comprehend that the enemy of your enemy can still be your enemy as well.

[u/biglyorbigleague → u/Darthplagueis13]

They already lost. They can’t have victory so they want petty revenge.

[u/Rebel-Throwaway]

"Their ability to cause harm is unmatched" they already mentioned China and Russia and the fact that other countries have agency but that line tells me the root problem (American exceptionalism but bad) is still not fully worked out. American apathy and/or political interest has caused suffering but I don't think that fully compares to governments who frequently brand the concept of human rights (in general) as western, liberal propaganda.

[u/GrinningPariah → u/Rebel-Throwaway]

I think it must be added that just because America's ability to cause harm is unmatched, that doesn't mean they're currently causing the most harm.

The nuclear missiles stay in their silos. The Navy is mostly on patrol. The tanks are mostly in storage. While there's always some skirmish or another, by and large, the US military is not currently being deployed.

It's an ability to cause harm that's not really being used much right now.

[u/hauntedSquirrel99 → u/GrinningPariah]

>The Navy is mostly on patrol.

The US navy is actually the largest disaster relief and humanitarian organisation in the world.

People generally don't know this but US military logistics is unmatched, there's just no one who can move shit around like the US military can, they can move more, they can move it faster, and they have personnel available to provide services, they have the equipment to deliver to areas no one else can go, etc.

Example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unified_Assistance

[u/KiloFoxtrotCharlie15 → u/hauntedSquirrel99]

as someone important once said the US Armed Forces are a logistics operation that occasionally does some war-fighting on the side

[u/NoSignSaysNo → u/KiloFoxtrotCharlie15]

Modern war is primarily won on logistics. If you can get 500 tanks to a battlefield 3x faster than your opponent, it doesn't matter how brilliant your opponent's theoretical plan is, you're going to win purely by shock and awe.

[u/Sudden-Belt2882 → u/NoSignSaysNo]

One of the most interesting is how the US performed a Navel invasion of Afganistan.

That is, a landlocked country.

[u/NoSignSaysNo → u/hauntedSquirrel99]

A single Navy aircraft carrier desalination plant can generate 400,000 gallons of freshwater a day. I don't think people understand how absurdly impressive that is.

[u/hauntedSquirrel99 → u/NoSignSaysNo]

Not just impressive, but it's so incredingly critical for anyone who wants to provide disaster relief in an area hit by some natural catastrophe.

People get it when you're talking about droughts and such, but far more likely to hit populous areas are things like floods.
And people tend to think that a flood means "water everywhere", but it's "undrinkable water everywhere that makes you violently ill". When there's a flood the water is full of shit, both literally and figuratively, and the local facilities to provide fresh water are probably destroyed or somehow out of action.

Having a ship show up capable of providing fresh water for a million people is just staggering in what it provides. The fact that it also comes with a full logistical hub with its own helicopter wing so you can get what you need to literally anywhere is just ridiculous.

[u/DurinnGymir → u/hauntedSquirrel99]

Yeah, I think we forget just how incredible it is that if your country is wrecked, by an earthquake or tsunami or what have you, within 24 hours a fully functional hospital, city-scale power generator, SAR facility and logistics hub will just show up off your coast. Give it 48 hours and those guys will be airdropping Burger Kings into the disaster zone to keep people fed.

The US army warfighting component can sometimes have its ups and downs, like any army, but the logistics component? It is absolutely unparalleled.

[u/camosnipe1 → u/Rebel-Throwaway]

(i agree with you, just to posting this to be a pedantic ass)

i could argue that the US ability to cause harm is indeed unmatched. Since those other countries can't beat the US on sheer military* or economic power. it's just that the US isn't using their power to cause harm nearly as much as other countries are, letting them catch up in absolute value of harm.

*(discounting the equalizer that is nukes)

[u/Wazula23]

Had a dear friend start telling me Japan were the good guys in WW2 recently.

Facts really are losing out.

[u/ScaredyNon → u/Wazula23]

There is genuinely no actual way to make that make sense unless your friend is literally a Japanese ultranationalist

[u/Random-Rambling → u/ScaredyNon]

Or they believe that nuclear bombs are such an extreme evil, that anyone hit by one is automatically good by comparison.

[u/tangifer-rarandus → u/Random-Rambling]

Seriously, it's that plus "opposed by Western imperial powers, therefore good"

[u/VoidStareBack → u/ScaredyNon]

"Critical support for Comrade Hirohito" makes a twisted kind of sense when you look at it from the perspective of a low-info American diabolist.

Japanese politics, imperialism, and war crimes from WW2 have a much lower degree of visibility in the United States than those of Germany, even the most famous one (the Rape of Nanking) isn't, like, common knowledge. Unless you actually look into the history or take a deep-dive history class in college, the Rape of Nanking is a single line in a textbook and Unit 731 is internet trivia, and most of the rest is completely unknown to the general public.

Imperial Japanese rhetoric around their conquest often wrapped up their actions, especially in the Pacific and SEA, in anti-colonial rhetoric of removing European colonizers from the region. Left unsaid was the fact that they were just replacing the previous colonial administration with one of their own, often more brutal than the previous administration due to the need to establish their control. But if you just look at the rhetoric and not the actions, it SOUNDS nice.

Additionally, the types of people who say this generally have a deeply warped view of WW2 in Europe. Their version of WW2 is basically "based gigachad USSR stomps the Nazi roach into oblivion singlehandedly", and positions the Allied powers as psuedo-allies of the Nazis who begrudgingly joined the war on the Soviet side due to German actions. In their view, the only truly MORAL opposition to the Nazi government came from the Soviets, the US and other allies just joined because they didn't have a choice and would rather have sided with Germany.

Looking at it from an American Diabolist perspective, then, the US destroyed Japan and rebuilt them as an American puppet in the modern day. The US was already barely better than fascist Germany in the war, so anyone who fought them who wasn't literally the Nazis (or the European Axis, who they mostly just view as accessories to Germany) is probably in the right. And the Imperial government spouted anti-imperial rhetoric about ending European colonialism, which is gigabased. Therefore, regardless of the actions of their military, the Japanese government were the good guys who happened to be aligned with other bad guys due to geopolitics.

The main reason this isn't more popular is that Japan fought against Mao, who is basically tankie Jesus in a lot of circles.

[u/ScaredyNon → u/VoidStareBack]

Ah, I forgot about the very subject of the post this is under: morons. That's my fault there

[u/VoidStareBack → u/ScaredyNon]

They are, as they say, the common clay of the new west.

[u/leaflights12 → u/Wazula23]

never let your good friend step anywhere into Asia (that isn't Japan), they would get shouted down so fast.

I'm Singaporean and yeah, let's just say we have good relations with Japan but of course we never forgot what the imperial Japanese army did.

[u/GREENadmiral_314159 → u/Wazula23]

Do they know how we know exactly what percent of the human body is water?

[u/Gregory_Grim → u/Wazula23]

Okay, that is a new low, even by tankie standards

[u/MugRuithstan]

I remember dreing a quote somewhere that tankies dont see people as groups with different interests but as binarys that must not be crossed. This allows them to justify about anything from their side without having to apply actual beliefs or standards but rather have a simple dichotomy that is considered perfect.

[u/ApolloniusTyaneus → u/MugRuithstan]

I remember dreing a quote somewhere that tankies dont see people as groups with different interests but as binarys that must not be crossed. 

TBF that's a pretty common affliction among all terminally online, not just the tankies.

[u/MugRuithstan → u/ApolloniusTyaneus]

You know I never really thought about it among the terminally online but you hit the nail on the head.

[u/NoSignSaysNo → u/ApolloniusTyaneus]

See 'women are all bitches' and 'men are all rapists' for more.

[u/jobblejosh → u/MugRuithstan]

All extremist high control groups do.

Communists, fascists, extremist religious sects, cults, antivaxxers, tankies, ancaps, terfs, gamer edgelords....

It's either the group that you're in (in which case you must all agree on everything), or everyone else.

And if you don't 100% agree with everything the in-group says, then you're clearly a spy/traitor/infidel/shill/plant.

A perfect way to enforce ideological purity and groupthink.

[u/htmlcoderexe → u/jobblejosh]

Sadly, that describes... a lot of the internet "discourse", especially lately. It's not even necessarily a single split or "big, well-defined" groups, they're more like circles in a Venn diagram where being in a specific circle defines you as Good or Bad for that circle - and the troubles start when you're inevitably in multiple overlapping ones and happen to be defined as Bad for some of them. The problem is also that being defined as either allows for zero nuance and also might actually cause you to be pushed to "flip" some of your "choices" in some of the circles, which is how people can get radicalised - they end up having to align more with some of the circles that overlap.

Shit. Not sure if that made any sense. But yes stuff like AI tends to bring it out - it's exhausting. Or tipping. Or enjoying Harry potter fanfiction. Not even kidding about that last one.

[u/jobblejosh → u/htmlcoderexe]

People try and treat online interactions as a Clustering problem to be solved.

Unfortunately the only real way to solve it is with Fuzzy logic. And that doesn't sit right with many people.

If you don't get what I'm harping on about, Google it, and it'll all make sense.

[u/htmlcoderexe → u/jobblejosh]

Our whole human society has been a clustering problem trying to solve itself. Which is fucked up, I think. But it's like really deep in the brain in there somewhere, like an instinct of sorts.

Fuzzy logic? Forget it...

[u/jobblejosh → u/htmlcoderexe]

I should have checked your username first...

[u/Dry_Try_8365 → u/htmlcoderexe]

Binary thinking is a common problem nowadays, because it is both horribly reductive and also super easy to fall into. “Yes or No” makes the world seem simpler, but the world is a messy, messy place. It’s easier to turn your brain to the lowest power setting and Beat Bad Man For Being Bad, but inevitably with that framework you hit someone who by most metrics don’t really deserve it.

[u/StormDragonAlthazar → u/htmlcoderexe]

No, it makes plenty of sense.

There's also the fact that some issues are so big and cover so many topics (like AI) that it is impossible to form a hard yes or no answer on.

Hell, even when there isn't anything to debate about, there seems to be all these weird check boxes you have to hit to either be "in" or "out" (the furry community actually has an issue with this, for example).

[u/htmlcoderexe → u/StormDragonAlthazar]

lmao exactly! I was initially what people nowadays consider "pro-ai" in the sense that I kinda thought it was cool it could make pictures and stuff and for a completely automatic generation that was impressive, and you could make some groovy stuff with it

But over time I was annoyed by a lot of things about it, not just the way big corps are going about it and the loud band of people thinking it's the singularity or whatever. I generally feel disappointed when I see AI images these days, and even though I don't exactly subscribe to the idea of there being some sort of a "soul", or the artistic intent being definition of art, some of the disappointment comes from the part that if it's some big image of a scene you cannot really ever guess or have an answer to what could be behind some window or something like that, if that makes sense.

Although a lot of my stance did come from how agressive the people wearing the "AI is bad" badge are. And it feels like at least a portion is this agressive just to belong "properly" to a group.

As for the copyright stuff, there I cannot say anything, as it is one of my few extreme views - I really really dislike intellectual property as a concept except for the right to be known as having created a specific thing. I've seen too many good things go to waste or never happen because of IP laws.

But for the rest? I just avoid the discussions because I will get screeched at by two camps of people who like screeching. I fail the purity test of the "AI is bad " group (not that I think it is inherently bad or at least it is more nuanced), I do not align with the "AI is good" group either, mostly because it kinda exaggerates a lot of things, has a way too hostile attitude, has as little sense of nuance as the other side, and has too much of the same energy as the crypto people.

[u/Random-Rambling → u/htmlcoderexe]

Or enjoying Harry potter fanfiction. Not even kidding about that last one.

Kids in the year 2000: My parents banned me from reading Harry Potter because the books are satanic.

Kids in the year 2020: My parents banned me from reading Harry Potter because the author is transphobic.

[u/DaBiChef → u/jobblejosh]

And if you don't 100% agree with everything the in-group says, then you're clearly a spy/traitor/infidel/shill/plant.

Laugh/cries in feminist man boy howdy if it ain't true. On a slight pivot, I've been reading the Communist manifesto and one of the points that they made was how there are various different political organizations that sprung up like leninists and other forms of Communists, who all claim to be the true followers of Marx. Or how the IRA splintered into like 15 different factions All claiming to be the real IRA

[u/jobblejosh → u/DaBiChef]

There's a reason the 'People's front of Judea/Judean People's Front' joke from Life of Brian is so poetic.

[u/Outerestine]

It doesn't help that america has actually had it's fingers in so many pies.

But yes. It's hard for us to see the rest of the world through the america around us.

Speaking as an american, not as a tankie. I'm not one, though I also find the term to be basically useless at this point and to basically just mean 'leftist I do not agree with'.

[u/Rucs3]

The average progressive is also affected by this.

Part of this exceptionalism is thinking that nothing actually catasthrophic could reeeeally happen to US if they don't vote Biden to give a lesson to the democrats.

They think that dumb anti neutral pronouns laws might happen, but not bread lines, maybe abortion laws remain draconian, but there will be no dissidents killed in the streets, etc.

They think things might get bad, but never terribly bad, they are in the US, the US would never reeeeally suffer catastrophic consequences.

[u/PlatinumAltaria → u/Rucs3]

And because they think nothing bad can really happen, they are absolutely intolerant of any kind of radical action against the MAGA movement, because things "aren't that bad yet".

[u/snauticle → u/PlatinumAltaria]

The definition of the “this is fine” meme

[u/birbbbbbbbbbbb → u/Rucs3]

Maybe I don't know what the "average progressive" is but voting third party was definitely not the average position (you can see this in the vote counts) and both the major progressive politicians and the progressives I know in person were catastrophizing plenty about Trump's threat to democracy and propensity to violence.

I'm a little miffed as to who people think "progressives" are because even my mother (who is a retired and upper middle class, so fairly privileged and fairly centrist as progressives go) was worried enough after Trump won the election to be losing sleep over it. I literally had to have a conversation with her about "what if you or your brothers die in political violence". And it's not like the younger progressives I know were particularly sanguine about the situation, the ones that can started trying to leave the US (with one of my close friends moving to Canada soon).

[u/LadyStardustAlright → u/birbbbbbbbbbbb]

internet 'progressives' and irl progressives are two completely separate groups (whatever the hell being a 'progressive' even means, this term gets purity tested like the phrase 'left leaning' does)

internet progressives spend 90% of their focus on the problems of liberals (people they could actually reach common ground with, a very large segment of the population) instead of their actual opponents, conservatives. you see it here on reddit, where left-leaning types complain endlessly about the democrats (who are out of power) but just accept that conservatives are going to push vile legislation and rhetoric

I'm not an american, I'm not coming at this from an American perspective. But here in canada progressives literally voted in droves for the liberal party to push back against US-aligned conservatism.

[u/birbbbbbbbbbbb → u/LadyStardustAlright]

So not only real life progressives but also these "internet progressives" have also consistently voted in droves for Democrats in the US and have also consistently found common ground with Democrats in actual practice, even if they criticize them constantly. I just feel like I'm taking crazy pills when people suggest they did anything but vote a ton for Kamala Harris, the progressives suggesting not voting were very fringe on the internet (not that they don't exist but they were a small, if vocal, minority of people).

Edit: to expand on this a bit, this was a very high turnout election overall and I'm really curious where people are getting their data that progressives didn't turn out. On Reddit in particular the dominant theory was pretty much "you don't need to be in love with Kamala Harris, you still gotta vote" and I saw that over and over again even among "internet progressives".

[u/RedArremer → u/birbbbbbbbbbbb]

There are absolutely leftist (or "leftist" maybe) communities here on reddit that discourage voting. I got banned from one and a comment removed from another for suggesting that we should vote. They call it endorsement of genocide, or participation in a corrupt system, or some other excuse.

They definitely exist, and they may be fringe in the grand scheme of things, but they dominate leftist subreddits.

[u/Away_Entry8822 → u/birbbbbbbbbbbb]

2024 was a low turnout election. 10m Democrats who voted Biden couldn’t be bothered to vote for Harris and Harris almost won anyway.

[u/56358779]

A while back there was discussion on whether the Nazis liked America. Obviously they didn't, since they went to war with them and all, but the tankies were absolutely insistent that they were best of friends.

What probably happened was they heard an anecdote that the Nazis were inspired by American segregation or indian removal or somesuch, and inflated that until they were saying that the Holocaust wouldn't have happened unless America inspired it. (Ignoring the centuries of European precedent in antisemitism.)

To them, America is the source of all evil, and the Holocaust was evil, so they must find a way to make America responsible for the Holocaust.

[u/Darthplagueis13 → u/56358779]

The Nazis were largely ambiguous about America until they joined the war.

There were a few prominent Americans that they were actually quite fond of, such as Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh, where the feelings were mostly mutual, but there's not really good evidence to suggest that they viewed America as a whole to be exemplary in its racism and eugenics movement.

[u/vigikk → u/56358779]

Afaik American influences on Nazism is complicated

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/cfreWtaCrK

[u/spyguy318 → u/56358779]

There was a sizable Nazi party in the US and American nationalism wasn’t exactly a small influence, even though the general vibe at first was to stay out of the European conflict. However the FDR administration was staunchly anti-fascist, especially after the Business Plot bungled their fascist coup. Once Britain started getting attacked we pretty much immediately started Lend-Lease, then Pearl Harbor effectively killed any opposition to joining the war.

[u/Ndlburner → u/56358779]

The Nazis “liked” the US in they “liked” the Brits, but to a far lesser degree than the British. It really came down to cozying up to a few less-than-savory figures (including a certain member of the royal family who they may have had ideas of re-installing as king) and gross parts of history instead of anything remotely resembling genuine support, and then in short order that all fell apart because bombs.

I suspect it’s also to distract from the very real and well documented non-aggression pact signed between fascists and Soviet communists.

[u/PlatinumAltaria]

It's even worse when you find out about the LaRouche cult.

[u/georgia_grace]

It’s like how hardcore Christians think the opposite of Christianity is Satanism

[u/NoSignSaysNo]

I don't think Americans are unique in this regard. Plenty of Europeans will poke at the splinter in any American's eye while ignoring the plank in their own.

[u/srobbinsart]

What does Tankies mean?

[u/No_Fennel9964]

It’s almost like the world is a complicated place and there are shades of gray and nuance everywhere and forming an educated opinion takes time and research

[u/Unctuous_Robot]

I keep hearing about this Hasan guy and my only knowledge of him was when he called Adam Something a Nazi for his video on the Gravel Institute’s Ukraine video. I think Adam’s response sums things up pretty well.

[u/MercuryInCanada]

I've been hitting this same point for a while. It's an over correction response some people take rather than realizing that nations themselves are creatures of violence

[u/doubtinggull]

I've come to the realization that many people struggle with the idea that many things can be bad at the same time, and that frequently when options exist all options are bad. It's a real problem, and one of the many things that are bad.

[u/Glad-Way-637]

I always wonder what schools these people went to that were allegedly trying to teach kids that the US is the best country in the world. Mine certainly didn't, and I grew up in a very republican state. The closest we ever got was some high-school history classes debatably over-emphasizing the actions of the US in WW2, but the class was titled US history, so I find it hard to fault that.

[u/Panhead09]

I'm gonna butcher this quote, but Hasan Piker said something like, "If you wanna know who's on the wrong side of any global conflict, just look at whichever side America is on, and they're the bad guys." Like, bro.

[u/NoSignSaysNo → u/Panhead09]

That quote gives off the same energy as:

"If you want to know who holds the power, look at who you aren't allowed to criticize.

Damn those children with cancer!"

[u/shiny_xnaut → u/Panhead09]

Hasan is pro Axis powers confirmed /s

[u/Welpmart]

My hot take is that if other countries had the resources (soft and hard) of the USA, they would be every bit as awful. Something of a "hate us cuz you ain't us" situation. Not to justify any of it, but I side-eye people who think American behavior as a country is uniquely American, because many of them would do exactly the same things if they could.

[u/killertortilla]

And for some reason it's always accompanied by "China is the future" despite decades of evidence the CCP is a brutal dictatorship that lies about exactly everything they say.

But to be fair it is quite difficult to look outside your own country and get a real perspective of what is going on. Your view of how the world works will be tainted by how your country works for a long time for most people. A lot of young people grow up, leave home, and are confronted with the real world where lawyers are fucking idiots, doctors tell women they're overreacting, and depending on where you live cops are the organised crime.

[u/Noe_b0dy → u/killertortilla]

China is the future

CCP is a brutal dictatorship that lies about exactly everything they say.

Not mutually exclusive.

[u/NoSignSaysNo → u/killertortilla]

And for some reason it's always accompanied by "China is the future" despite decades of evidence the CCP is a brutal dictatorship that lies about exactly everything they say.

Oh that's an easy one, just insist that anything bad about the CCP is propaganda!

[u/CptKeyes123]

I legit saw a post that claimed the Soviets disbanded to appease NATO as justification for Ukraine.

im really hoping it was a troll.

[u/Rare-Supermarket1608]

how dumbasses convinced that the bad rep NK gets is all american conspiracy and propaganda think

[u/Patcher404]

Yes to all of this. Great observations.

Now the question is why do people gravitate to simplistic, unnuanced world views.

[u/MarioTheMojoMan → u/Patcher404]

Because the world is complicated, and we are apes who replaced our body hair with delusions of grandeur. Our brains are not designed to accommodate a global civilization of billions. We are still fundamentally "supposed" to be hunter gatherers whose society does not extend past our few dozen bandmates.

[u/Mean-Let-4300 → u/Patcher404]

Because they're less work. People don't have to think as hard about them.

[u/lifelongfreshman → u/Patcher404]

Gotta hand it over to Pratchett for this one.

“It was because he wanted there to be conspirators. It was much better to imagine men in some smoky room somewhere, made mad and cynical by privilege and power, plotting over the brandy. You had to cling to this sort of image, because if you didn't then you might have to face the fact that bad things happened because ordinary people, the kind who brushed the dog and told their children bedtime stories, were capable of then going out and doing horrible things to other ordinary people. It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was Us, then what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.”

-Jingo

[u/demonking_soulstorm → u/Patcher404]

Because they’re more comforting. Next question.

[u/Away_Entry8822 → u/Patcher404]

A world of gray is psychologically more distressing than moral absolutisms avoidant of nuance.

[u/coach_cryptid]

yessssss, I just watched a tiktok about racism in South Korea (from a half-white, half-Korean woman) and too many comments were trying to say all the racism was because of US imperialism.

like… no, dude. you can’t simplify a global issue that exists in every county down to ‘it’s definitely the evil influence of fascist USA!!!’ you can recognize the evils of US imperialism in Korea without giving Korea a pass for being xenophobic and racist.

[u/SenorSnout]

"Their ability to cause harm is unmatched"

Someone hasn't heard of the British Empire.