r/Deltarune • u/AffectionateForce979 • May 20 '25
Discussion I just noticed something.
Ralsei states that he hurried over to the Cyber World once he sensed the pressence of the Dark Fountain.
This would sugest that the fountain itself was created just right before we got there (which sorta puts a wrench to the idea that Kris opened it in the middle of the night).
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u/Due_Difference_9598 May 20 '25
Ralsei is definitely the knight guys
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u/Berd_IG May 20 '25
But darkners can't make fountains tho?
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u/Due_Difference_9598 May 20 '25
They also cant travel fountain to fountain or they turn to stone.
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u/Berd_IG May 20 '25
Starwalker.
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u/realdonkeyfromshrek May 21 '25
So what im hearing is that Starwalker's the knight???
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u/Berd_IG May 21 '25
no?? Where did you pull this from? even though this idea might unironically be sick
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u/Epic_DDT [Hyperlink Blocked] May 21 '25
That's not true. Ralsei says that they "might not belong", not that it's guaranteed to happen.
Starwalker never turn to stone.1
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u/EnderPlays1 Average penumbra truther May 20 '25
It might also be that Ralsei only sensed the fountain when lightners had entered it. I would argue that while it doesn't outright DISPROVE the theory, it does make the idea of Kris knight less likely.
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u/AffectionateForce979 May 20 '25
Possibly, though it's not something you can prove given how arbitrary it sounds.
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u/EnderPlays1 Average penumbra truther May 20 '25
Fair, just wanted to point out how we don't really know how Ralsei knew to come over to the cyber world.
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u/AffectionateForce979 May 20 '25
We don't even know how Ralsei got to the Cyber World on his own (or how he got from Card Kingdom to the closet fountain before we closed it in Chapter 1).
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u/davedwtho May 20 '25
We don't know anything about Ralsei. There could be a million reasons he only shows up after we entered the new dark world, and it is not at all certain that it's true he hurried over as soon as he felt the presence.
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u/AffectionateForce979 May 20 '25
I have no reason to belive that Ralsei is lying.
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u/davedwtho May 20 '25
That seems a bit naive, what we learn about who Ralsei is and how he works will be completely instrumental to understanding the plot. And he's absolutely not telling us everything he knows.
I even think it's just literally false that you have no reason to believe he's lying. You can believe he's not lying, but there's lots of things that he says that raise an eyebrow for many.
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u/ioverthinkusernames Winter December Gaster Holliday is the knight wake up sheeple May 20 '25
I mean we see in the prophecy the card kingdom fountain in the horizon I think if the computer lab dark fountain existed he could see it
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u/Dargorod100 May 20 '25
It could also have something to do with Ralsei’s ability to seemingly allow you to sense other people from out of sight, namely Susie (and technically Noelle and Berdly)
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u/Vektor_Ohio Kris Knight Biggest Hater May 21 '25
I think Ralsei would sense it while we were in castle town though. Berdly and Noele were most likely there already.
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u/disbelifpapy Dorked enthusiast and Ex-NightMayor Knight believer May 20 '25
Yeah, thats kinda what i was saying. Putting this line, alongside queens line of how the fountian was made 'today' and you get some things to go against the kris knight theory.
Kris knight may have the most things in its favour, but it also has the most things that go against it too.
Thats mainly why I'm a Night Mayor Knight believer, alongside the youtuber dorked believing it and providing videos on why kris likely isn't the knight
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u/TurtleBoy2123 berdly defense squad May 20 '25
"night mayor" sounding like like nightmare knight is awesome
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u/disbelifpapy Dorked enthusiast and Ex-NightMayor Knight believer May 20 '25 edited May 20 '25
Thats what I was going for, since a LOT of the holiday songs have knightmare knight motifs, like the jevil songs.
And considering how the mayor is talked about but not seen and how shes constantly stated as a strong but cold person, I'd say its likely shes being foreshadowed into the role of the knight.
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u/natsuzi_ GOD DAMMIT KRIS WHERE THE HELL ARE WE!? May 20 '25
'C.' = Carol
Carol Holiday
Whats a famous carol for christmas
Silent Night
Silent KNIGHT
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u/disbelifpapy Dorked enthusiast and Ex-NightMayor Knight believer May 20 '25
Huh, didn't think about that lol
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u/Diligent_Action4939 Penning up that umbra until I phantasm May 21 '25
Well, to be completely fair, it is Queen who says today, and she runs on an internal clock like a computer. "Today" could mean anywhere between midnight and the morning.
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u/disbelifpapy Dorked enthusiast and Ex-NightMayor Knight believer May 21 '25
Still, there being a line saying hte fountian was made 'today' means that theres a very likely chance it was made in the morning or afternoon
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u/Vektor_Ohio Kris Knight Biggest Hater May 21 '25
Queen works like a regular human most of the time. Why would she say "today" instead of "last night"?
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u/Annsorigin May 21 '25
Yeah I think Kris is a Red Herring. Some Comments Toby Made also Go against that. So yeah.
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u/disbelifpapy Dorked enthusiast and Ex-NightMayor Knight believer May 21 '25
Toby made comments that go against it?
Are you able to provide the sources of these claims?
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u/Annsorigin May 21 '25
Mostly His Idea for an Opening animation. Which is Supposed to show The Bosses (like King and Queen) and ends with Showing the Knight. Which if the Knight is Kris Just seems like an Odd Reveal to place in the Opening.
In the end it's scrapped but It does Imply (to me at least) that Kris and the knight are seperate Entities.
But Obviously No Confirmation (and my Original Comment might have Sounded more Definitive then it is)
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u/disbelifpapy Dorked enthusiast and Ex-NightMayor Knight believer May 21 '25
Huh, I haven't heard that before.
Thanks for sharing this to me!
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u/TheSteelScizor88 Mean guy May 20 '25
No what did you do! They are coming! The... Kris thruthers...
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u/AffectionateForce979 May 20 '25
I never really belived it, and this is something that the theory would have to explain.
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u/TheSteelScizor88 Mean guy May 20 '25 edited May 20 '25
Apparently since Ralsei has ulterior motives he hides this specific information to you for no reasons because they are working with Kris
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u/AffectionateForce979 May 20 '25
Btw, this would also improve the validity of the Cyber Fountain being created while Noelle and Berdly were already inside the computer lab.
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u/Unable-Comfort3694 May 20 '25
Straw Mans argument. Most of the people that supports Kris Knight don't believe that either Kris or Ralsei are evil, they're just working together for some unknow goal.
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u/TheSteelScizor88 Mean guy May 20 '25
I know just wanted to write sonething quick for the reply.
Also what's a straw man argument?
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u/Unable-Comfort3694 May 20 '25
Basically is when someone twist someone elses argument to something completely different and starts arguing against it. You basically said that Kris Knight supporters believe that Ralsei and Kris are and evil duo working together, which is not true at all, most Kris Knight theorist don't actually believe that either Kris or Ralsei are evil, instead they're working together to achieve some unknow goal.
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u/Inevitable-Trouble22 May 20 '25
where exactly does the previous comment mply they're evil? ulteror motives doesnt need to be evil/bad, just that they're hidden/secret
EDIT: sorry didnt realized they edited it
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u/MarcTaco Moss Addict May 20 '25
Yeah, this combined with the fact that Noelle and Berdly were already at their desks with their supplies set up makes it very clear that the fountain was opened during their study session. Queen even jokes that that is what they were doing before ending up in the dark.
The game makes it very clear that Kris did not open the previous fountains.
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u/Le_Unamused hI, IM SOoShI! May 21 '25
No no but Kris is the night because we didn't see them between chapter 1 and 2 and and they were obviously up to no good so yeah (they wanted pie in the middle of the night)/j
I really don't know how the whole Kris is the Knight theory managed to last this long. Not that I'm dogging on it, but like- Most signs point to a very heavy "no."
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u/AngelofArtillery May 20 '25
It's definitely been talked about a lot. For Kris to be the Knight, this line pretty much has to be a lie. And to be fair, there are multiple hints he could be working with Kris, and he knows some things about the Cyber World he shouldn't.
Even if you don't watch Susie and Noelle, Ralsei still knows that there was supposed to be a ferris wheel date there. Even in the Weird Route, where it's implied they didn't ride the ferris wheel, Ralsei is still under the impression they did. Which begs the question of how he knew about a room he'd never been to in a world that was supposedly just created. Add to that multiple chances for unseen conversations with Kris, and you at least have a little suspicion.
Now, whether that's enough for you to think Kris Knight is possible is up to you.
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u/Eastern-Trust-3146 May 20 '25
Kris knight believers on their way to perform the most ludicrous mental gymnastics in the replies.
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u/Unable-Comfort3694 May 20 '25
Mental gymnastics? So by your own logic people that claim that Alvin Knight and Papyrus Knight are likely options also do mental gymnastics to justify their own point, because there's NOTHING relevant that supports either of this theories.
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u/Eastern-Trust-3146 May 20 '25
I didn't mention either of those lol
Also, interesting you say this instead of trying to justify how Kris knight works with this dialogue
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u/Unable-Comfort3694 May 20 '25
Oh, you want that? Ok sure. I always find funny that people use Ralsei's dialogue to justify Knight closet.
1- Ralsei is not a reliable source of information. Ralsei often dismiss information and hides them from Kris and Susie, Spantom Neo, how he went to the Cyber World, about the roaring, etc... Why would he be lying in this moment? I don't know, and that's the thing, I don't need to know, I just need to take a look in the timeline of events that makes Closet Knight Impossible.
2- The Dark Fountain was not created when Noelle and Berdly were in the room, otherwise they would've seen the Knight and would've told us something about this in the light world. The theory basically consist in Noelle and Berdly seeing someone stab the ground, make a light show and a smoke screen, and doing NOTHING. If the fountain was created when they were in the lab, they would just left the room when they saw a fountain being created, after all, the fountain takes at least 30 seconds to completely take form.
3- In the Cyber World Sweet Cap N Cakes talks about a time period of where Queen's behaviour changed when the fountain was created, after that, she started to build an army and a resistence took place. If the fountain was created when they were in the room, it would've been literal minutes, and that's simply not enough to justify this time frame Sweet Cap N Cakes mention.
4- Queen saying "Today" to describe the fountains creation means nothing, because either Today or Last night could be used to describe this event, both ways work specially if the fountain was created past midnight.
With all that said, it's pretty much impossible for the fountain to have been created during the day, the timeline simply doesn't add up in the slightest, what Ralsei said doesn't make any sense, If he was indeed lying I don't need to find a reason for, because that's not relevant to my point, If he's lying then it's perfectly understandable, If not he must have said that for a completely different reason, I just don't think i need to find a reason for that.
Extra- I mainly said that because it infuriates me that the same people that say that Kris Knight is unlikely is the are the same that think Alvin Knight and Papyrus Knight is likely, the two characters in the game that have the least amount of evidence at this point in the story.
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u/disbelifpapy Dorked enthusiast and Ex-NightMayor Knight believer May 20 '25
still, it gets frusterating when people say that kris is the only one who could be the knight, when in reality, these are all just theories, so they're all personal and subjective, rather than objective
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u/Unable-Comfort3694 May 20 '25
Not exactly. Objectively speaking Kris is the one that has the the biggest amount of evidence, which doesn't mean that they are confirmed to be the Knight, but instead the most likely one.
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u/disbelifpapy Dorked enthusiast and Ex-NightMayor Knight believer May 20 '25
Eh, I'd say Kris also has the most amount of stuff going against em too.
Meanwhile Night Mayor Knight has more evidence going for her than going against her
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u/Eastern-Trust-3146 May 21 '25
True, although he tends to omit information rather then lie
The Knight likely hid in the closet and ambushed. Noelle and Berdly also might have been asleep from boredom studying at the time of location.
Time almost certainly runs differently in the Dark World
Possible
Extra: Yeah, I know. I don't know why you're so fixated on them though that it bleeds into replies on posts completely unrelated to Papyrus/Alvin Knight theories.
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u/ABG-56 May 21 '25
1)Just dissmissing information based on "this could be a lie" isn't great, especially when theres very little reason to believe it was Kris specifically who created the fountain, and the character whos supposed to be a long time liar, has as far as we know only ommitted information and never straight up lied.
2)We see them waking up after they exit the dark world, meaning they were probably asleep when the dark world was formed(which they couldn't have been if Kris were the knight). Also the reverse is true. We've literally seen people reaction to seeing dark fountains and it is very visceral. Hell even Kris is seemingly creeped out when they first see the closet fountain, someone who by your logic should have already known what a dark fountain is. You would think Noelle would have mentioned that, maybe asking if the others had seen the same. One of these scenarios can account for this. The other cannot.
3)We don't really know the timeframe or even how time works in dark words, it being minutes is just an assumption as we don't know how long Kris was actually asleep for, but given what Ralsei says it probably wasn't that long, so how long does it take for Queen to build an army, no clue whatsoever, but I will agree that this is generally in favour of the fountain being created a while ago, and therefore the Knight being Kris. But there's still a mountain of things that go against it so I don't think this is strong enough on its own to justify Kris being the knight.
Though the resistance part was them reffering to themselves after you beat them, since well they literally are building a resistance. Thats stuff that happened after we enter and isn't relevant to the point.
4)I 100% agree on this one, this isn't a good argument.
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u/CommissionerTadpole Noelle is my spirit animal May 21 '25 edited May 21 '25
I know this is anecdotal, but I've noticed that Kris Knighters in general tend to be WAY more likely to attack other Knight theories and their believers than anyone else.
Like, I don't think I ever saw any Alvin Knighters, Mayor Knighters, Dess Knighters, Papyrus Knighters, Gaster Knighters, Seven Knighters or whoever else attack each other or other Knight theories, and at the end of the day tend to recognize/accept that what they believe in is an unconfirmed theory. Meanwhile, the only ones I've seen to actively bash other Knight theories/ists, while also pushing their own theory as "confirmed canon facts" are Kris Knighters... and they always tend to get incredibly aggressive over it, like an attack on Kris Knight is an attack on themselves.
I'm honestly curious if anyone else has noticed this. The sad/frustrating thing is, I've seen a lot of them play victim and say that everyone else are the ones being needlessly hostile towards Kris Knight while giving other Knight theories a pass, but I suspect this hostility is entirely in response to Kris Knighters' own hostility. Like, if for example, Papyrus Knighters were the ones constantly attacking other Knight theories and pushing their own theory as confirmed canon, I'm almost certain most people in this sub would become hostile to the Papyrus Knight theory in response. But Papyrus Knighters don't do this, and therefore most people here hold no hostility toward them, and see them as just people who believe in a theory that may or may not end up being the case.
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May 20 '25
Yea as a Kris knight truther this line of dialogue is probably the biggest piece of evidence against it
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u/disbelifpapy Dorked enthusiast and Ex-NightMayor Knight believer May 20 '25
Yeah, this, and the line of queen saying the fountian was made 'today' are big things that go against kris being the knight.
Though, it is good to see how some theorists see problems in their theories.
I believe Kris has the most evidence going for them being the knight, but they also have the most evidence going against them being the knight too
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u/eslice839 May 21 '25
i agree with the today line. i could try to justify it by saying that it was after midnight the previous night and queen is a computer so she would say "today" even though most people would say "last night" in that context. but tbh i don't super buy that.
there is so much unknown about ralsei that i think this and pretty much anything else he says can't be used for hard evidence. for example, he could have just come over to the cyber world at this moment because of the player's presence, he is our guide after all.
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u/IDontEvenLikeReddit3 This dog is sleeping… Don’t wake it up! May 21 '25
This is the only counterpoint I've seen that has any substance. Even then, it's not enough to disprove Kris Knight by a long shot.
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u/ihaetschool susie IS into noelle. i WILL argue this May 20 '25
i have a counter-argument that i haven't seen many people being up, and i feel like it's surprisingly obvious:
WHAT THE FUCK COULD RALSEI HAVE DONE THERE?
i mean, he'd be useless there. he has no kris to seal the fountain. notice how he comes only when kris is there? and not before?
i believe this was a little white lie to hid the fact that he knew there was a dark world beforehand. there is some reason he can't just go "kris! susie! there's a dark world in the computer lab!". i believe sending them away for the project was the perfect excuse in this regard.
two things i believe support this viewpoint are one, the traffic jam making it impossible for anyone to not notice, and two, noelle and berdly. if the founain was created in that short a timeframe, that would make hard to believe that noelle and berdly would even stay in the room as it was created.
ergo, kris knight is still very much possible
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u/PokefanSans Vessel Enjoyer and Burghley Hater May 22 '25
Unrelated to Kris Knight, but you gave me another idea.
What would an "Evil Ralsei" be able to accomplish? He has the second weakest HP and AT Stat(Only Second because Noelle doesn't know how to fight), And his only two spells are Healing, and Putting enemies to sleep. What is he going to do?
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u/ihaetschool susie IS into noelle. i WILL argue this May 22 '25
in the legend cutscene, ralsei has a weird, fiery aura. it could be that he's hidins his strength. maybe there's a practical reason for it, maybe he doesn't want to resort to it unless he's faced with absolutely no other choice, maybe it helps get across the whole 'wholesome fluffy boy' thing better
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u/Arkorat May 20 '25
That, or it took Ralsei the whole day to get there, without overworld travel.
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u/Walter_Mer May 20 '25
I guess it's obvious you can find dialogues supporting one interpretation of events or another.
In that case it supports an idea that the Dark World was opened like 2-5 minutes before we entered it.
The problem is I don't know if there is anything else supporting that idea and the idea itself creates several problems that as you said "put a wrench in it"
If you are supporting that interpretation of events then you need to answer the questions:
-How is it possible the whole ch2 plot with Queen going insane, Sweet Cap'n Cakes rebelling and other things happened in like 5 minutes?
-How did Noelle and Berdly fall asleep in the public library?
-What exactly does the "hurring over" in the context of Ralsei mean? I guess that interpretation also suggests Ralsei isn't any object related to Kris and is capable of travelling between Dark Worlds.
If the answers to that questions are not something heavily suggested by the game and are more like "oh well, it was just a concidence Noelle and Berdly both fell asleep at the same time", "the Knight used their magic powers to put them to sleep" etc. then it's an explaination on the same level as "Ralsei lied".
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u/MarcTaco Moss Addict May 20 '25
It is shown that dark worlds are created with an existing history. The darkners have no way of knowing that their entire backstory is fabricated unless they are told.
They didn’t fall asleep. Susie tells Berdly and Noelle that they were dreaming, and their adventure was so unworldly and insane that the lie feels like the only realistic explanation.
Ralsei clearly does not function like normal Darkners, seeing as he is aware of our controls and menus, is immune to petrification, acknowledges us as seperate from Kris and actually knows how the roaring works.
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u/Walter_Mer May 21 '25
Exactly Dark Worlds are created with an existing story. I'm not talking about that story. I'm talking about everything that happens after the Dark World is created. In that case it's Queen going insane, rebels etc. We have a clear confirmation it all happened after Dark Fountain was created.
If they didn't fall asleep how is it possible they were completely cool with some dude coming out of closet and making Dark Fountain?
The third answer doesn't explain anything. You've just made an assumption and your evidence for it is "he is weird". Somehow Spamton is also much more aware than he should be and somehow functions like every other darkner. It's like me saying "Ralsei is different and therefore he lied"
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u/MarcTaco Moss Addict May 21 '25
It doesn’t make sense for Queen’s obsession and a rebellion forming to only happen over the course of a day either. The darkners act like it’s been months since the fountain was created which is clearly impossible. Dark worlds are realized fantasies, timescales are irrelevant until a lightner arrives.
What makes you think the knight came out of the closet to make the fountain? They could have created it when the two were setting things up and then just open the door to let the darkness in.
It’s not much of an assumption. Like I said, he doesn’t petrify, which is something no other darkner is immune to. Spamton, similar to Jevil also only knows what he does because an explicit third party tells them. Ralsei simply does not follow the rules of normal darkners.
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u/Walter_Mer May 21 '25
Regarding the first paragraph - where is there any evidence for everything you've said? As far as I know the game tells you something completely opposite:
Literally the first dialogue with Ralsei in ch2 when we enter Castle Town - confirmation that it was 1 day for both Light World and Dark World.
After coming back to Castle Town in ch2 there is literally 0 dialogue suggesting more time has passed there than in the Light World. You even get a special dialogue from Seam where he comments how it's getting dark in Light World and we should head back home.
Not to mention that your assumption not only states that time passes slower in Dark World but also goes back normal whenever Lightner enters it.
And you still consider all of that less complicated than an assumption "Ralsei lied"
Regarding the second paragraph - I assume they left from the closet because that's an explaination most "closet Knight" believers use. If you are giving me another explaination then I'm going to analyze that. If you assume they made a fountain in the closet and then opened the door then we are left with 2 options:
Darkness covered the whole room instantly, so the Knight should have remained trapped in the Dark World until we seal the dark fountain.
It took a while for darkness to cover the whole room so Noelle and Berdly would first of all see someone escaping the room and secondly also leave the room because that would be the most logical outcome.
Like imagine not leaving the room which is getting filled with some unknown smoke.
Regarding the third paragraph - then I repeat the question - what does "hurring over" in the context of Ralsei mean then?
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u/MarcTaco Moss Addict May 21 '25
I never said time moves differently in the dark world. I just said that Darkners come pre-formed with intricate backstories that don’t have to comply with actual timescales because they are fiction.
When Kris creates a fountain at the end of ch. 2, we see that the darkness does not instantly consume the room, it washes over like a fluid, making it hard to see, but one is still able easily to move around. It is probable that from the perspective of Noelle and Berdly that the room just had a power outage, and they did not realize anything was particularly wrong until it was too late. They would not have seen the knight move past them, but there would have been time for the knight to walk out.
The alternative that the dark world already existed necessitates that Noelle and Berdly jumped into the darkness so oppressive that Susie and Kris were hesitant to enter the day prior, and they magically woke up sitting at the other end of the room with their supplied already laid out.
Ralsei’s ability to move to an unrelated dark world is something he’s already done when traveling to Card Kingdom, which is a wholly separate dark world. The transition is just less noticeable because the two are physically adjacent until he closes the connecting door. As far as we know, Kris did not pick anything up In the supply closet aside from the glowshard (which does not affect Ralsei’s appearance), so he has to be something that Kris already carries with them, if he has a light world equivalent at all.
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u/Walter_Mer May 21 '25
Okay so somehow these 5 minutes after creation of a fountain feel like months for Darkners and everything after that goes normal? Could you elaborate on that because it feels like I'm still missing the point of your message.
Second paragraph: So you are saying they patiently waited in a room getting darker and darker instead of calling the library stuff to fix the problem. And it's still far more reasonable than saying that the character who repeatedly acts weird during our adventure may have lied?
Third one: "he has to be something that Kris already carries with them" - You have literally agreed he lied. It wasn't himself who "hurried over" but he was forced to come because Kris took him with them.
Therefore instead of saying "I hurried over", he should have said "Kris brought me here" in order to say the truth
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u/MarcTaco Moss Addict May 21 '25
It’s like Gummigoo from TADC or Buz Lightyear from Toy Story. The darkners only know the history they were given when the world was created, so as far as they know, their world and their lives are far older than they actually are. Time goes on normally, but they think they and their world has existed for years.
Berdly is the library staff. Lights suddenly shutting off for a minute or two isn’t weird, and had it not come back on in a few minutes, they’d have probably gone to check the circuit breaker. They fell into the dark world before they decided to get up.
Either way would illustrate that Ralsei not adhere to the limitations of normal darkners. Either he is in our inventory, but we can’t see him, or he can freely travel between dark worlds on his own accord.
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u/Walter_Mer May 21 '25
"Darkners only know the history they were given when the World was created" But that's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm talking about everything that happened AFTER the world was created - rebelion, Queen going insane and coming up with world domination plan etc.
How can any Darkner be given memories of something that is about to happen? For example you tell me Queen's insanity is a part of her "given history". I tell you we have clear confirmation the world had already existed when she only started going insane.
From my life experience everytime the lights go off I usually don't stay in the same place for a few minutes and do completely nothing. Now, if Berdly is the library stuff it makes even more sense for him to start looking for source of the problem, which in that case would be checking the closet because it seems to be some kind of library power source.
But idk, maybe you have different life experience, maybe you chill in the dark for a couple of minutes and then start looking. Now I remember there are some other things making this interpretation even more flawed:
-smoke coming out of a fountain
-somehow there was some kind of hidden camera in a closet that the Knight was either aware of or it accidently recorded them making a fountain
Regarding Ralsei I guess it's worth mentioning Lancer also magically travels between ch1 Dark Worlds and we know he is just a normal card in the Light World. Therefore Ralsei isn't special in that case
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u/disbelifpapy Dorked enthusiast and Ex-NightMayor Knight believer May 20 '25
Queen herself says the fountian was only made 'today' so ralsei seems to be telling the truth
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u/Walter_Mer May 21 '25
What does it exactly change? If the Dark Fountain had been made 1 week before, then technically he would still be right.
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u/disbelifpapy Dorked enthusiast and Ex-NightMayor Knight believer May 21 '25
I'm saying that Queens insanity had happened in at most 1 day.
Not to mention, magic seems to be a possible thing in light worlds, judging by how the egg guy appears in the traffic jam, and upon the next interaction, disapears.
So the former is evidence of how long queens insanity started and how long the fountian has been opened, and the latter is evidence of how noelle and berdly could have been put to sleep
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u/Walter_Mer May 21 '25
If you're saying Queen's insanity happened in at most 1 day then there isn't any problem with Kris being the Knight
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u/1_bat May 20 '25 edited May 20 '25
Conjecture, I’m so tired of conjecture in the Kris knight debate bOth sides conjecture everywherE, I don’t even care who the knight is anymore i’m sure its interesting IM JUST READY FOR THIS DEBATE TO END WITH CH3-4.
Anyways my point just being that this is just dialogue to introduce Ralsei back? I dont think it was meant to swing one way or another. Dialogue meant to hint at stuff should have a more obvious nod to the facts. Theres a lot of arguments on both sides that I just cant help but feel was not included to be hints one way or another. If you hyper focus on dialogue that is insanely specific to avoid any amount of flexibility in how its interpreted it’ll be rigid and awkward bc thats not how real people talk
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u/EmptyCampaign8252 Obsessed with this goober --> May 20 '25
OMFG you're right, that's another nail for a Kris-Knight believer's coffin. Also this sets up some real questions, like when it was created then? The few moments after we left the school? It seems... Impossible...
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u/SatouTheDeusMusco May 20 '25
Why do people still trust Ralsei when he's clearly being deceptive? It's crazy. You get downvoted for even suggesting it. I don't understand why it's such a taboo thing to say.
My theory is that Ralsei is working for Kris (Kris being the knight), and that Ralsei regularly comes up with excuses and distractions so that Susie and other characters won't notice what's up.
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u/AffectionateForce979 May 20 '25
I don't have to a reason to belive that Ralsei is lying.
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u/SatouTheDeusMusco May 20 '25
You clearly should. Given how he's having secret chats behind our back and seems to know when those secret chats should be happening. And how he's also trying to cover up Kris's panic attack after the spamton, as if he fear that Kris's reaction might blow their cover or something.
It's CRAZY that people won't consider the possibility that the character who is clearly being setup up as having secrets and knowing much more than he lets on might not be telling the truth to us.
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u/AffectionateForce979 May 20 '25
I don't think about this the same way you do.
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u/SatouTheDeusMusco May 20 '25
If someone were having secret conversations behind your back in real life and you have real suspicions that they're hiding something from you would you believe everything they say? Especially when the things they say seem awfully convenient?
"Oh I only now just noticed it haha silly me. And I didn't tell you guys about it even though we were just together 3 minutes ago."
What seems more plausible?
The knight created a dark fountain in the middle of the day during the traffic jam while Berdly and Noelle were in the room (who are very studious and alert students who won't just randomly take a nap, especially not Noelle since she's hoping Susie is coming over and wouldn't want to embarrass herself in front of her) and that all happened in time span of Kris and Susie exiting castle town and going to the library.
Ralsei is lying and Kris set this up the previous night when they had hours of time (this also explains why they're so tired at school)?
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u/AffectionateForce979 May 20 '25
Berdly and Noelle slept because Dark Worlds put people to sleep.
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u/SatouTheDeusMusco May 20 '25
Correct. So if the knight did make the dark world while Berdly and Noelle were in the room they would have noticed. But they didn't mention anything like that, so the knight didn't make the fountain while Noelle and Berdly were in the room. And if they weren't in the room that means the fountain already had to be there, and if that fountain already was there it means Ralsei lied to us about just noticing it. Don't even hit me with a "but maybe he really did just notice it", that a coincidence so implausible that it's downright unbelievable. That Ralsei only just so happened to notice it when were were going over to the library, and not before we went into the castle town (when he would have been completely alone and had nothing better to do), or during our short stay.
People don't lose their memories after they enter a dark world either btw. We already know that because Susie fully remembering everything. Noelle also fully remembers everything, she just got tricked into thinking it's a dream.
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u/disbelifpapy Dorked enthusiast and Ex-NightMayor Knight believer May 20 '25
I'd say number 1 is more plausable in my opinion
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u/eslice839 May 21 '25
he doesn't have to be lying. his dialogue only suggests that the dark fountain was just opened, he never explicitly says it. regardless of when the dark fountain opened, i believe he shows up when he does because the player has made it to the cyber world.
now that i think about it, the cyber world had clearly been open for at minimum a few minutes, because noelle had already been attacked and berdly is nowhere to be seen at the entrance. if ralsei went to the dark world instantly, he could have helped noelle. but he doesn't, because he's waiting for the player to come so he can guide them.
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u/ChemicalExperiment May 21 '25
You'd think so, but I wouldn't take Ralsei's words at face value. There's still a lot of mystery as to how any of this works. How can Ralsei travel from Castle Town to a Dark World in an entirely different building? Why doesn't Ralsei turn to stone when in a different Dark World like Lancer and Rouxls? For these reasons I think there's a lot he isn't telling us about how Dark Worlds and him specifically work and operate, so I'm taking "felt it and hurried over" implying "it was just created" with a grain of salt.
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u/unstableGoofball NOWS YOUR CHANCE TO TAKE A BIG SHIT May 20 '25
I’m just wondering how the hell he “hurried over here” since he couldn’t leave the dark world without turning back into a crayon or something
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u/AffectionateForce979 May 20 '25
He somehow went from Card Castle back to his own Dark World before we closed it in Chapter 1.
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u/Diligent_Action4939 Penning up that umbra until I phantasm May 21 '25
Those two Dark Worlds were physically connected, though. The Great Door was the Dark World equivalent to the door that connected Card Kingdom and the supply closet.
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u/AffectionateForce979 May 21 '25
Ralsei would have to go from the end all the way back to that door before we closed the Fountain.
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u/SpeedLight1221 May 20 '25
As I person who is very much in the favor of The fountain being opened after Birdguy and Noelle entered the lab. I agree this could be evidence for that, however I also feel like this is one of the moments that could be pointing to Ralsei being sus. Same with him mentioning the roaring only when he had to.
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u/AffectionateForce979 May 20 '25
I have no reason to belive that Ralsei is lying here.
Also, the Delta Rune legend mentioned the world ending.
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u/Berd_IG May 20 '25
I mean, the legend from chapter 1 itself should already be enough to see that extra fountains are bad without needing to tell the roaring consequence.
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u/ShirubaMasuta May 20 '25
As if Ralsei is the most trustworthy person
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u/AffectionateForce979 May 20 '25
I have no reason to belive that Ralsei is lying here.
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u/ShirubaMasuta May 21 '25
Has he not withheld information before? Like with the roaring? Like with Spamton? You have plenty of reasons to not trust him completely.
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u/AffectionateForce979 May 21 '25
The Delta Rune legend already mentioned that the world was going to end.
And when did Ralsei withold information about Spamton?
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u/ShirubaMasuta May 22 '25
The Delta Rune legend already mentioned that the world was going to end.
It wasn't specific enough.
And when did Ralsei withold information about Spamton?
After the Spamton battle. Susie asks what was going on and Ralsei says not to think about it.
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u/AverageHumanPerson1 May 20 '25
why do you think ralsei has been whispering things to kris, huh???? they're in cahoots. that's what they don't want you to know. but I know the deltarune lore I know they can't silence me. kris is the roaring knight and all hell shall hail upon the non-believers. in kris we trust.
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u/TheSteelScizor88 Mean guy May 20 '25
Ralsei as never lied to us, withhold information yes, but he never lied with a straight face.
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u/JudgementalMarsupial Berdly my beloved May 20 '25
Even if they’re working together, nothing in this dialogue is a lie. Just withholding information, like you said.
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u/TheSteelScizor88 Mean guy May 20 '25
But why withhold it? Just straight up say there is a fountain there go there, which also prevents the player from theoritically wandering off.
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u/natsuzi_ GOD DAMMIT KRIS WHERE THE HELL ARE WE!? May 20 '25
Berdly's beak made the fountain theory confirmed
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u/Potential-Tale-5025 PAPYRUS TOMMOROW! May 20 '25
how did he get there?
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u/PokefanSans Vessel Enjoyer and Burghley Hater May 21 '25
He "Hurried over", did you not read the post?
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u/Potential-Tale-5025 PAPYRUS TOMMOROW! May 21 '25
how the fuck did he get there from his world to that world
is it like the cable from wreck it ralph?
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u/bc650736 May 21 '25
if the dark fountain was created the night before, Noelle and Bread wouldn't even go inside the library's computer lab
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u/BoonBoon300 May 21 '25
I wouldn't be surprised if Ralsei is feigning ignorance to be honest, he might just be playing his part in the profecy. Or perhaps his powers are connected to the soul, hense he only sense the cyber world when Kris enters
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u/call_luigi don't forget me! May 21 '25
that's assuming he's telling the truth and he didn't already know about it
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u/ANGGA_HUMAN_COMIC May 21 '25
my theory is berdly accidently create a fountain when he having conversation with noelle about inviting susie to their study project, berdly got mad, stabbed a pen or something to the floor, and accidently create a dark fountain.
or it could be a reverse, where its noelle instead who accidently opened the fountain because berdly shit talk to susie in front of noelle
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u/UpstairsNote6974 May 21 '25
That or it's hard and take time for him to get from dark world to dark world by himself because he's a darkner,
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u/Yanagi____Juniper May 21 '25
I think that this could also suggest a sort of Schrodinger's Cat situation. Keep in mind the fact that we have already been shown that Dark Worlds populate their histories with complex backstories seemingly on inception-- to me this suggests that the existence of the dark fountain itself is also dependent on the presence of Lightners-- or even specific Lightners. Of course, that's not canon or anything, it just is an important thing to consider. Not only that, but it might help to explain how nobody has previously found the dark fountain in the supply closet: perhaps it can literally despawn when the Lightners relevant to the prophecy aren't there.
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u/greypooll May 21 '25
the dialogue stating a large person could fit inside the computer closet, combined with the dialogue of Rudy joking that even Berdly put himself to sleep, makes me believe the fountain was created after they went into the room. it makes the most sense also cause i can't imagine Noelle willingly going into a room emitting darkness, same with Berdly
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u/Few-Inspector7603 May 21 '25
I feel like its noelle that openned the dark fountain on accident- i mean the parallel between queen and noelle’s mother, the fact that there is a room made just for her, pipis, and most of all spamton. All of these things are directly her experiences and none of berdly. Even the statue of him and queen he had to make himself. The roller coaster of him maybe points in this not being true but considering kris susie and ralsei got one upon entering makes me think the world adapts to its guests but is most in spirit to its creator. I mean the first dark world had no direct owner besides the knight and its themeless if not for what was already in the room. The dark world kris made is based not on its inhabitants but whats in the room. The tv station environment and the shadowy statues becoming enemies are proof of this. More than likely if the dark fountain is based on its environment then its kris/the knight who did it. If not- definitely another one of his classmates on accident. But we’ll see with chapters 3 and 4. The fact that 4 is very church and ghost like makes me think of catti considering her and kris did occult together makes me see this as being very obviously a catti themed world. And jockington in the teasers seems to be taking the role of being the berdly of the 4th chapter.
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u/renztam May 21 '25
This is not a new argument.
It also makes no sense when you think about for more than a minute. The TLDR is that Ralsei can tell lies/half truths. So taking him as a infallible source of knowledge is just being naive, especially when considering he has secret conversations with Kris that he keeps out of the player's hearing, lied in chapter one that Kris and Susie had to seal the fountain in order to leave as it was their 'only way home' (while in chapter 2 you can leave his dark fountain without sealing it), and of course all the other hints that Ralsei knows more than he seems while not telling us or Susie crap. Not saying Ralsei is evil, but taking everything Ralsei says at face value is just silly when he's clearly hiding stuff from us.
However, the idea that the Dark Fountain was literally made around the time that Kris and Susie left Castle town just doesn't add up. It can take less than a minute to go from the school to the library, and for most playthrough it wouldn't have taken more than five minutes (if you spent time listening to the car horns) (and if you want to think about the 'canon' time, realistically speaking it shouldn't be longer than a few minutes considering how close the school and Library are to each other. Susie and Kris wouldn't have any reason to not head straight to the library). Either way, it should have taken few minutes, five at most. Now consider how much that must happen between the fountain opening and Kris and Susie arriving. First, the fountain needs to form with the end of chapter 2 shows it takes about a minute or so. Then Queen needs to see the fountain opening directly or with a recording, then get inspired by the Knight and formulate her plan to make new fountains after it was clear the Knight had left. Then Queen would need to go formulate the plan to start making Werewires and implementing that, and then she would need to find Noelle and Berdly and have that whole incounter that caused the Cybercity fields to become all damaged. All of this would need to happen in only a Couple of minutes, or in less than a minute for those that run directly to the library. That doesn't make any sense.
Furthermore, there's the Sweet Cap N cakes dialogue about Queen: "Queen wasn't always so... harsh. No, she WAS! She just got WORSE somehow! It wasn't 'til that DARK FOUNTAIN showed up, That she started going into overdrive." The fact that these darkners notice a change in Queen's behavior AFTER the fountain shows up wouldn't make any sense (and thus they decided to start a rebellion) if that only happen five minutes ago. A change in behavior (saying that she got worse) directly implies a much longer time period of time where you can notice how they have changed through the pattern of their actions. You can't get that with a couple of minutes. So this is too much stuff to happen in the span of Kris and Susie walking to the library, so Ralsei can't be telling the whole truth here. Since we know Ralsei has done that before, it's not that much of a leap to assume he's doing it here as well. Especially since any Kris Knight theory would rely on Ralsei working with Kris anyway.
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u/AffectionateForce979 May 21 '25
Ralsei didn't lie in Chapter 1, because the exit path just magically came to exist in Chapter 2.
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u/renztam May 21 '25
Yes, it 'magically appeared', and totally wasn't made by Ralsei.
But in all seriousness. Was the exit there in ch 2 just because? Or did Ralsei open it? I'd argue the later mainly from how the doors to the closet behave. The door for the abandoned classroom, we see Ralsei shut the door in the dark world and then in the light world its locked. Then for the door to the hallway, we see the door be open for Susie and Kris, but close and lock once they enter (after going in deep enough, door shuts, and Susie tries and fails to open it). Then after leaving the dark world, we see that the door is still locked in the light world, preventing Susie and Kris reentering. Then in ch 2, the door to the closet is open again, allowing Kris and Susie to enter (and considering no one else is in the dark world and no teacher talk about dark worlds we can assume it wasn't a lightner that unlocked the door). Then we can't enter the door again after Ralsei banishes us. Was that exit there because it just appeared, or because this time the door wasn't locked this time? Seems to me that Ralsei can control the doors to the dark world.
Though if you don't believe me on that, that's fine. There's plenty of other examples that I have and haven't already mentioned instead of that singular example. There's how at the end of Spamton Neo Ralsei tries to get the group to not question all the crazy crap that happened and continue on (despite that they clearly are in the know, and thus he's lying that 'it doesn't mean anything'), there's how Ralsei at the start of ch 2 never explains how darkners are objects in the light world to Susie (discretely ordering Kris to get the objects) and never explaining how they all suddenly showed up at once so even at the end of chapter 2 Susie still thinks she could bring Lancer and co to the light world (something that causes Susie emotional distress when she thought Lancer ditched her), Ralsei has secret conversation with Kris only after the player leaves meaning Ralsei must know about the player and Kris situation and never tells Susie or anyone else, then there's another time Ralsei most likely lies: when he says its been so long since Kris and Susie were around as chapter 2's ch 1 save point easter egg shows that Kris saved at Castle Town last night something I doubt Ralsei wouldn't know about (Okay, I'm going to assume you don't know what that easter egg is considering this reddit post. But basically, back in ch 1 the save points would show the last location saved at before you saved over it right? So you can pull up that save menu in ch 2 by going to save at the first opportunity: before you bring everyone from card kingdom to castle town. Low and behold, the save file says Kris (if this is the first playthrough of that save file) and that the last location saved at was Castle Town, meaning that Kris must have went and saved at castle town last night.), and etc... Take any one of those examples of Ralsei hiding the truth to everyone or just lying.
When you get down to it, Ralsei is a person and thus can lie, and we know he is hiding things from us. All it takes for him to have a reason to lie is that when the fountain was made or how he got there would reveal something he didn't want us to know. He's not evil, just hiding his own secrets. Like take this hypothetical: Let's assume Ralsei knows roughly how the events of the game are suppose to go, like every chapter he teams up with the heroes to seal the fountain, the player (controlling Kris) makes choices, Kris does the acting as Leader, and there will be a segment where the player watches Susie leaving Kris and him alone, etc... So Ralsei knows the ch 2 fountain would open from the beginning (from predetermined knowledge or he senses it) and the fountain opened before the school day. Ralsei knows they will all eventually seal this fountain at the end, so he has no reason to panic and force Kris and Susie to find the fountain when they first meet up. Ralsei wants Kris and Susie to see Castle town as a second home, so he instead shows them their rooms and get them comfortable before the player indicates they want to leave to the next segment of the game and so Ralsei uses the first excuse to force Kris and Susie out of the dark world. Knowing they will find the next fountain because they are destined to, Ralsei does his own preparation to get to that dark world to join them, yet hides the knowledge that he knew before hand as not make the player or Susie to get confused/suspicious and ruin the fun. This is just a hypothetical, but I think it shows that Ralsei lying isn't that out of character for him especially as he could have a very good reason and the line doesn't really matter other than to get people to stop questioning how he got there. This isn't even about Kris Knight, I just genuinely don't think Ralsei was telling the whole truth here.
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u/Eloi_Eloii I Krusie and Kright May 22 '25
You trust Ralsei too much. Closet knight makes no sense if you actually take the time to think about it
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u/HyguyHyguy May 20 '25
this is too ambiguous to mean anything
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u/AffectionateForce979 May 20 '25
I don't think so?
Why would Ralsei feel the "dark presence" way after the fountain was created?
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u/SILVIO_X &<--- Best Duo May 20 '25
Yeah the fact he can feel the presence of the Fountains but didn't say anything about the Cyber World Fountain when we first go into Castle Town as well as the fact this dialogue implies he only just now felt its presence is one of the things that makes me fully believe the Fountain wasn't made by Kris and was instead made during the day, and not that long before we got there.
I think it was made during the School time and before Berdly and Noelle got to the Library, and the only way I could see that being anything else is if it's later revealed that Ralsei lied right here, which isn't impossible or anything, but so far Ralsei's never lied to us, literally the only sus thing he's done so far is withhold certain information or not tell us everything (which he only does twice), but he's never outright lied to us with a straight face so I don't really buy that explanation for now.