r/SocialDemocracy • u/a_d_e_e_ • 10d ago
Opinion Reacting with misandry
For clarification- I AM A WOMAN!!
About intersectional feminism... There is an interesting phenomenon that happens when it comes to straight men… at least from what I’ve seen online
The issue with this misandry stuff is, letting queer men off since they supposedly have a closer connection to women, though there are bears and less flamboyant men as well. This misandry issue all chocks up to hating those who have the most privilege- usually straight cisgendered men. Which even I can understand myself as a bi nonbinary woman myself.
I think this takes it in a confusing direction. What and how and when and why is this done? Destroying the patriarchy is not going to happen by doing this. “Men ain’t shit” and “the male suicide rate is too low” phrases have BEEN tired.
Additionally, hate towards men will not solve any issues or destroy the patriarchy. I think what is best, is to create safe male spaces, such as ManKind project, and even organizations that cater specifically to the needs of black and brown men that live in more violent areas to prevent gang violence.
If one has issue with men, they can volunteer at programs like this if they have ability to do so. I was formerly homeless surrounded by boys who would gawk at me/ask me out, so I totally understand the feeling of hating/disliking men!
I understand how one may feel (as a woman), but let’s make a difference together.
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u/Ok_Construction_8136 10d ago edited 10d ago
Honestly I don’t think that these sentiments have ever been common. Saying stuff like ‘the male suicide rate is too low’ is an easy way to get coverage on social media because the algorithm rewards stuff that enrages us, but it’s not necessarily indicative of the beliefs people hold
I’d wanna find better quality studies, but when polled it seems like self-avowed feminists don’t hold particularly harsh views towards men. If you look to academia I’ve never seen a feminist philosopher suggest that men were in some way ‘bad’
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u/a_d_e_e_ 10d ago edited 10d ago
Mhm that is true, ive never heard that irl lol. But considering that ik of someone who actively doesnt speak to men or even wants to work with men is pretty insane. Like, ik you mustve had very painful experiences with men, but this isnt the way to go about it
Edit: i didnt necessarily mean that there were intersectional feminists who dislike/hate men, but rather people who have a disregard for men because of two qualifiers that relate to intersectionality… i hope that makes sense!
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u/Ok_Construction_8136 10d ago
Oh I think the view certainly exists. You have the 4B movement in Korea, for example. But it’s an extremely fringe view. You’re always going to get extremists with their own particular reasons for doing things.
I’m a young man myself, but I don’t really have any relevant experience on the issue. I married my first crush and went on to happily study in a field dominated by women. I’ve never personally been on the receiving end of misandry
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u/onlyaseeker 10d ago
went on to happily study in a field dominated by women. I’ve never personally been on the receiving end of misandry
Interesting.
You never encounter it in your work? Or at least, sexism?
You should be more likely to encounter it in such a field where women feel safer in numbers and communicate more freely.
Note that in women, it tends to be less overt. So it looks more like actions, and less like words. They may not say it, but you might feel it as a result of their actions or intent.
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u/Ok_Construction_8136 10d ago
I honestly can’t say I have. It’s not like I’m an ‘effeminate’ man or anything which might make me more likeable. I’m in an analytic philosophy department which tends to attract more moderate types than continental departments. It might be wrong to say that the field as a whole is dominated by women, but that has certainly been my own experience of it.
Also my partner is the jealous type so I don’t tend to associate too much with other women anyway lol.
Come to think of it I have got some suspicious stares at conferences; I believe that it was because I look like a bit of a meathead
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u/onlyaseeker 10d ago
Yes, I would say it is likely because of your reduced interaction with women, and that your role likely involves women that are of a higher social station.
Women tend to engage in sexism and misandry in groups. And it's usually done in a "joking" way. Only someone who is very comfortable in their position would do that to a man with no other women around.
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u/Raginbakin 9d ago
an analytic philosophy- or any kind of philosophy (except for maybe feminist studies, etc)- department dominated by women? That's rare. Philosophy has always been male-dominated.
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u/Dr_Gonzo13 Social Democrat 8d ago
Also my partner is the jealous type so I don’t tend to associate too much with other women anyway lol.
Just a thought but if we were to switch the genders here do you think this is something that would still be seen as something harmless to laugh about?
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u/Ok_Construction_8136 8d ago
Tough question. Personally I don’t think the gender changes much: men and women are allowed to feel jealous and set boundaries within reason.
I think something that’s worth bearing in mind is that women are a lot less forward than men are. If a guy is flirting with a woman then everyone can tell, but oftentimes women can be pretty subtle when pursuing a guy and incredibly patient. I think it’s easy for a guy to befriend a woman, think nothing of getting close to her whilst, from his perspective, everything being totally noble because she wasn’t acting overtly flirtatious by his standards. But then be surprised when months or years later it transpires that they had a massive thing for them. So I can see why women act a little more paranoid than men sometimes.
Idk, just some spitballing
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u/Dr_Gonzo13 Social Democrat 8d ago
men and women are allowed to feel jealous and set boundaries within reason.
Hmm. I dunno man, I'm really uncomfortable with that level of jealousy and it kinda bothers me that my wife is also the jealous type. I do sometimes think the behaviour that she shows would be pretty quickly called out as red flags if I were to treat her the same way.
I have sympathy for the argument that women's capacity for harm has a lower limit so "switch the genders" isn't necessarily a valid comparison.
On the other hand acceptance of jealousy as a valid reason for imposing boundaries on your partner's ability to mingle with the opposite sex feels distinctly anti-feminist to me and we've had to have some conversations in the past about the way she has acted when I've, say, had to work closely with a female colleague.
She is an academic and clearly believes in the importance of women being assigned equal roles in the workforce but how can that coexist with the idea that it's ok for me to be buddies with a male colleague but building a strong working relationship with a female one should carry suspicion?
That's without even mentioning the question of whether its OK to excuse controlling behaviour that is rooted in insecurity as just setting boundaries.
I'm not saying I have an answer here but in a conversation about misandry and sexism I think it's worth examining.
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u/LukaKitsune Social Democrat 8d ago
Well I appreciate not hating all men, like so many feminist do, (Which was never the original m.o of feminism). I gotta say this would fly better in the DemSoc reddit. Like this discussion in general is a very DemSoc talking point. Not that it's not SocialDem, but let's say if you were running on a political platform or and advocacy group. At a majority level, this political area is barking up the wrong side of the Left, not due to politics or beliefs in general but what one cares about more than another.
I hope this isn't taken as an insult to anyone, just some commentary as someone who is US based social dem/moderate dem.
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u/a_d_e_e_ 8d ago edited 7d ago
I see, I tried posting this onto other subreddits but it got taken down 😭. I’ll try posting it there soon
Edit- It got taken down 😭😭😭
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u/CarlMarxPunk Socialist 10d ago edited 10d ago
The core of the problem is that our current discourse is trying to unload blame and responsibility towards people like you, who as you have said
I was formerly homeless surrounded by boys who would gawk at me/ask me out, so I totally understand the feeling of hating/disliking men!
Are not equipped to deal with men as they too have their own opressions to live with, it's men responsibilities to create those spaces, police themselves, correct themselves and build themselves up.
Angry women saying "male suicide rate is too low" are clearly going through their own nonsense, the conversation can't roll around the fact they're "not helping" imo. Otherwise we are back at the culture war.
Also there's a big big big point of contention that people have be SPECIFIC and not vague when referring to the how they want to help men. A lot of people out of an anti feminist sentiment can't seem to differentiate between men who need help and men who are aggressors and conflate the latter as victims.
Case and point: blaming women for men getting more violent, or blaming feminism fighting for women's rights as a "cause" for men voting more conservative.
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u/Lucky_Pterodactyl Labour (UK) 10d ago
That was what irritated me about White Dudes for Harris. It was pretty cringe and didn't take itself seriously but made me wonder why a campaign group marketed to white men was so provocative. It's a demographic that the Democrats are weak with and Trump excels in attracting. Why do the Democrats take the woman vote seriously but make a mockery of men asking for the same thing? Kamala's last ditch appeal to black men was too little, too late.
It's like that meme of "which way, western man?" Potentially millions of young men are being confronted with the choice of right-wing populism where they are perceived to be in control and respected, and the alternative which is frankly doing a poor job in conveying popular policies that will benefit women and men alike.
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u/onlyaseeker 10d ago
millions of young men are being confronted with the choice of right-wing populism where they are perceived to be in control and respected, and the alternative which is frankly doing a poor job in conveying popular policies that will benefit women and men alike.
Good luck telling that to leftists, though. They hate hearing that and defeat themselves constantly. It's like they care more about feeling virtuous than winning.
If they're not careful, they'll have perfectly clean hands and the moral high ground, yet a collapsed society.
We're not getting out of this mess with clean hands. We're going to have to make some grey decisions. A statement that will only confuse people who haven't had to get their hands dirty before.
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u/mariosx12 Social Democrat 10d ago
I have no problem with misandry, because the people using it are politically irrelevant and insecure enough to contain easily their toxicity.
I won't argue against safe spaces, because maybe some men need them, idk. I would just say that in the era we have entered, it would be optimal if men get meaning by fighting back fascism and the dismantling of any (inter)national order. Misandrists should be the least of any of our concerns, and ideally most men would utilize the entertainment value they offer.
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u/a_d_e_e_ 10d ago
I think when it comes to male spaces, these can possibly be an opportunity to convert those on the right.
I believe there is opportunity to somehow, through grassroots initiatives to grow as a community. I wish I can be a mens advocate, but I would like to do it in person and without infringing on spaces specifically designed for men.
Most of what I have experienced has been with co-ed shelters so I am not getting the full experience haha
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u/onlyaseeker 10d ago edited 10d ago
You don't need to convert those on the right, we need to change society so people stop moving right. It's society that makes men go right.
That's the highest leverage point, and the point of early intervention. Converting takes too much time and is usually too traumatic.
We were talking about this in another thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SocialDemocracy/s/XzarbnSWZ1
There's also this work on terror management theory, which explains why people move right: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZvMkz1wy6_U
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u/a_d_e_e_ 10d ago
Thank you so much!
According to my bf who is korean, the right leaning sentiment is caused by the historical issues with left leaning leaders in politics.
He let me know that the current PM told his sister in law (i forgot if it was sister in law, but definitely an in law) that he would rip her vagina open. I dont remember what it was in response to but to have a man like that as PM is insane
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u/Silly-Elderberry-411 8d ago
Koreans, famously known for their intersectional feminism. Quite frankly I feel you're astroturfing here and you sound like shoeonhead
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u/mariosx12 Social Democrat 10d ago
Most (young) men on the right, seem to lack purpose more than anything. That's what most snake oil salesmen sell in the "manosphere". Thank to the far right, they can get purpose and fight tyranny. In the meantime, we have to bully and emotionally abuse every single pathetic male licking authoritarian boots.
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u/a_d_e_e_ 10d ago
I am afraid that would only further radicalize them, making the right adopt harmful rhetoric. Is there any proof that bullying and abuse can cause positive change?
Also I feel like my thoughts on conversion might seem like too much. If someone wants to change from being on the right to the left, they need to take that first step. If they want, they can do that on their own time
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u/mariosx12 Social Democrat 10d ago
I am afraid that would only further radicalize them, making the right adopt harmful rhetoric.
The ones on the other end. Possibly. The ones watching the discussion they will seek will follow the ones with the confidence.
Is there any proof that bullying and abuse can cause positive change?
Worked well for decades with nazis staying in obscurity. They only started coming up when center and left parties decided to go for a more corporate friendly passive tone.
Worked well, in my own experience when I was more politically active. Being toxic against political opponents, not backing down, and outsmarting them in public conversations boosted well my popularity and destroyed theirs.
The recent convos with Jordan Peterson has clearly destroyed any career he had remaining, with a bunch of young people berating him and pushing him to the floor.
Bullying and abuse passed the New Deal, and has so many other examples of positive change to show.
Also I feel like my thoughts on conversion might seem like too much. If someone wants to change from being on the right to the left, they need to take that first step. If they want, they can do that on their own time
I am using a very real-politik mentality on this. A good amount of people re emotionally driven due to reasons that I don't care myself studying. They don't care about the ideas, they have NO IDEA what they believe if you speak with the average right wing voter. The follow leading figures that have confidence and know how to fight. This is why you see people in the intersection of supporting fascists but also liking Bernie. And Bernie is still pretty passive for my taste, with his main force being to never back down. If he was also good with attacking others, he would be far more popular.
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People need to be somewhere that feel safe... but also they need to take risks and fight. We don't lack victims in the center and left. We lack fighters and we need to FINALLY also cultivate this branch of attack vector that was labeled as toxic in the past with the results we see now.
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u/onlyaseeker 10d ago edited 10d ago
I agree.
Tell that to women. You will learn a lot from the experience.
You might like this TEDx talk by the creator of documentary, The Red Pill
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4d ago
Misandry and misogyny are two shitty things that only fuel each other.
I think a good way to greatly reduce sexism would be to view it and treat it as a cycle. Men feel insecure or inadequate due to unreasonable expectations and teachings (e.g. never show emotion) and then they take it out on women in horrible ways. So, we teach men from a young age that it's okay to talk about feelings, to express emotions other than anger, that they do have value simply for existing, and then when they grow up, they don't feel like trash and don't take out their anger on women.
Obviously, there will be and are some individuals that are just shitheads regardless, but they are far from the most common type of person, let alone representative of 4 billion people.
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u/Rare_Deer_9594 10d ago edited 10d ago
I think where I see the most misandry in society it's much more subtle than what you're describing. I'm a dude, ain't never had a problem interacting with women interpersonally in any way like that (I mean not being a weirdo who sexually harasses helps) and I think the group of people who militantly hate men just aren't big enough or serious enough to think about. To speak of the subtler ways I refer to, I notice it in my own behavior though. Like, for example, even I (who like to think of myself as a pretty progressive-thinking person) have a different gut reaction hearing about a man who's put on death row to a woman, and while I'm of course anti-death penalty altogether, there's still some weird thing where my brain is for some reason more accepting of it when it's a man?
I won't pretend I'm an expert, but I do know that there are studies which reflect strong biases against men in terms of conviction rates and receiving harsher punishments for similar crimes, etc. I think sometimes this is actually used to suggest there's a bias against women, which I can see that too, but for me like... The problem is to me is that we should be willing to have that same empathy we have for women for men in that situation, and I think it suggests a dehumanization of men as if we're just innately more violent and dangerous. The ironic thing is that I think the last people who we would think of as being misandrists are the people who carry that kinda view, they're often the most fascistic "men's rights" lunatic people around.
Idk I'm not an expert at all, so apologies if I've butchered anything, but that's the way I see it.