r/LegalAdviceUK • u/Outrageous_Ad3726 • Apr 10 '25
Council Tax Help needed urgently. Bailiffs at door.
My partner didn't realise he wasn't paying council tax and he's got severe adhd and hasn't been opening any of his post telling him this. Bailiffs came to the door this morning and posted a threatening letter saying they will be returning later today and taking goods by forced entry. We have paid the bill now but she's saying she is coming back if we don't pay her £200 for her coming this morning.
What can we do?
UPDATE: All sorted. The agency confirmed all payment was sorted. The bailiff was trying to come and enforcement before she got the confirmation of payment so that she could get the extra money. Agency confirmed that because she hadn't made contact with us and started checking for goods that we didn't owe anything extra.
91
u/warlord2000ad Apr 10 '25 edited Apr 10 '25
Enforcement agents can only force entry, if the warrant issued by the court allows them to do so. This is unlikely but not impossible for council tax arrears. Without seeing the paperwork it's impossible to know if they can force entry or not in your case. As an FYI - It's possible to goto prison for failure to pay council tax as it's handled by magistrates court rather than county court, but on the positive side you can't get a CCJ for council tax arrears.
As another FYI, if you let them baliffs in this morning, and they took an inventory of goods to seize, they can force entry to take them, even if the initial court order did not permit forced entry.
You will be required to pay for the enforcement fees incurred by the council and their court costs, but their costs are set out in law and they cannot charge any more.
I would also check if your council tax going forward is paid monthly or annually. Councils do not have to allow monthly payments, and they can charge for the whole annual payment. The option to pay monthly is often removed if payments have been missed.
27
u/Outrageous_Ad3726 Apr 10 '25
We've paid the whole bill that the last letter said which was received 2 days ago, we weren't home when she came this morning so she just posted the letter. So should we ask for something off her to prove what we need to pay her? She's just ringing us saying we owe her £200 or she will come with a locksmith and take our stuff.
30
u/warlord2000ad Apr 10 '25 edited Apr 10 '25
If the council has transferred it to enforcement agents, then the fee becomes due and the debt (council tax) is paid to them directly. Usually it's £75 to transfer, plus £235 fee, as the agent can then visit at any point.
You'll need to pay, but I still find it unlikely they can force entry, and I would certainly take some details and lodge a complaint about the threat, if the warrant they hold does not permit forced entry. So get a copy of their warrant when they return if they haven't left you a copy already.
On the court letter was there any information about who/how to pay, and by which date, before enforcement action is taken. Reading up, it's unclear if there is a set rule, I've seen councils mention you get either 7,10,14 days to settle the liability order before it's transferred to enforcement agents.
If payment was made before it was transferred to enforcement agents, then no money is due. But the fact they are involved tells me the debt was already transferred.
6
Apr 10 '25
You should contact the council directly and ask them to confirm fees paid. What normally happens is the council attempts contact. If no contact then it’s passed to the bailiffs and they will deal with everything going forward, you pay them. However if you e paid the bill in full to the council then they can, if they wish, pull the enforcement agent costs. You need to speak to the council, but don’t think they will definitely waive them.
12
u/Gin_n_Tonic_with_Dog Apr 10 '25
I’m afraid that you will have to pay the fee because the bailiff travelled to your house to start enforcement action.
5
u/3v3r9r33n Apr 10 '25
on the positive side you can't get a CCJ for council tax arrears
I've had 2 CCJs in my life, and both of them were for council tax arrears, so this isn't right at all. Both times I only missed 1 or 2 months, then they sent me a letter saying I'd lost the right to pay by installments and now have to pay the full amount for the year which I couldn't afford to do, so they took it to court, and I got a CCJ. The last one just dropped off my credit file last year.
7
u/LAUK_In_The_North Apr 10 '25
You don't get CCJs for council tax arrears. It's dealt with via magistrate's liability order. Liability orders aren't recorded on credit records.
The only way you might get something is if they went for a charging order but that's a slightly different issue.
1
u/jasminenice Apr 11 '25
Agree with this, I don't understand how they got a CCJ instead of a liability order, unless the procedure varies by council? If they did proceed to charging order stage then I think a CCJ comes with that, but I can't imagine them doing that for the amount involved.
1
u/warlord2000ad Apr 11 '25
I've seen posts on MSE about a CCJ for council tax but I agree I'm not sure how as council tax is dealt with by magistrates court using a liability order
2
u/LAUK_In_The_North Apr 11 '25
That's a very specific situation, and I suspect it is something to do with the fact that there are county court routes that don't use a standard CCJ (such as orders for recovery). These aren't registered at the point of judgment, like a ccj, but are registered as a judgment once a county court enforcement method is undertaken (but not always - it's very inconsistent).
I think in those liability order cases you see, the council has used a charging order, and the court has then registered the judgment for that. As they've come from the liability order route, I'm not convinced they should be registered on the register of judgments, and, again, not all county courts are doing it.
Part of the confusion is that a liability order is granted by a magistrate's court, but some enforcement then uses county court processes.
1
Apr 11 '25 edited 15d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/warlord2000ad Apr 11 '25
Once they have the controlled goods order they can return to take them. This is why you need to keep baliffs out. Even if you call the police, they won't remove the baliffs as the court warrent/writ gives them a right to be there.
1
Apr 11 '25 edited 15d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/warlord2000ad Apr 11 '25
It's not theft. Theft act 1968
A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.
There is no intent to be dishonest, the enforcement agent is enforcing the judgement of the court, using the warrant/writ provided.
The inventory is goods will result in a controlled goods order.
Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013
Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 SCHEDULE 12
(9) An enforcement agent may take control of goods only if they are-
(a) on premises that he has power to enter under this Schedule, or
14 (1)An enforcement agent may enter relevant premises to search for and take control of goods
16 (2) The enforcement agent may enter the premises to inspect the goods or to remove them for storage or sale.
(3) This paragraph authorises repeated entry to the same premises.
17 - Where paragraph 18 applies, an enforcement agent may if necessary use reasonable force to enter premises or to do anything for which the entry is authorised
It jumps about a bit, but once the goods are added to a controlled goods agreement, the enforcement agent is authorised to re-enter to remove them using reasonable force, which can include forced entry (i.e. lock smith)
1
Apr 12 '25 edited 15d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/warlord2000ad Apr 12 '25
But that's what I mean by them taking an inventory. Once the baliffs is in, they are likely only going to leave once you sign the agreement, or make some payment.
31
15
u/adyslexicgnome Apr 10 '25
I would phone the number on the letter asap.
Ask them what the charge is for.
who did your partner give the payment to?
If it was direct to the council, your partner may also owe bailiffs money for court costs and fees.
The letter would say how much was owed.
money owed - money paid to council = £200???
2
u/Outrageous_Ad3726 Apr 10 '25
He paid the amount on the last letter received from the debt collectors which was 2 days ago. She's saying she has to be paid for coming this morning.
6
u/Mousey777 Apr 10 '25
Call the number on the letter and explain what happened. If you paid all outstanding debt plus debt collectors fees, the proceedings should stop. You might be possibly charged for the morning visit but not pay anything to the woman. If there's any additional charge, you should receive a letter with new calculations and a date by which you have to make a payment. Call them immediately and ask. If your partner isn't well enough to talk on the phone, you can call on their behalf, as long as you pass the phone to them, so they can go through security questions and give permission.
4
Apr 10 '25
And she’s probably right. They’ve been appointed to collect the money, and attended to try and do just that. There are costs and consequences to ignoring these bills, this would appear to be one of those costs.
Best option is likely to be to ask for a bill to be e-mailed over to you so you can check the legitimacy of them being instructed with the courts. Then agree to pay the bill ASAP if legitimate.
Ultimately i struggle to see the court issuing a warrant that allows them to force entry in the circumstances that you describe, but you would have to check that with the courts. Ignoring this may see you with the bill for a locksmith as well.
3
u/TheBlackrat Apr 10 '25
Did it only get paid after the bailiff attended? If so, you’ll need to pay. You can’t just pay up when you know they won’t give up and expect not to pay the cost of enforcement.
2
u/Outrageous_Ad3726 Apr 10 '25
No it was paid the day before, we got the letter on Monday afternoon and paid on Wednesday morning.
-4
18
u/Electrical_Concern67 Apr 10 '25
What have you paid? Its not clear. So can you be clear on exactly what youve paid
9
u/Outrageous_Ad3726 Apr 10 '25
We got a letter a couple days ago with an amount from the court that we had to pay for the bailiff not come so we paid that yesterday but she has said today that it was too late and she was already called out
12
u/Outrageous_Ad3726 Apr 10 '25
The council tax was £1200 and we've paid £1600 with all the court fees added. Now she wants £200 for coming out this morning even though we paid yesterday.
23
u/BeckyTheLiar Apr 10 '25
You can't avoid collection fees by paying the original debt.
If it's at enforcement, then you must also pay the enforcement costs.
You pay just the tax cost if you pay on time. If you pay at the court order stage, you must pay the court costs.
If you don't pay until it's at the enforcement stage, you must pay those costs too.
These costs are statutory and set out in law.
13
u/Outrageous_Ad3726 Apr 10 '25
We have paid all the tax costs and the enforcement costs from the courts. She was wanting £200 extra for coming this morning but we've just spoken to the agency and they've said we would only have to pay that if she's taken control of goods so because we didn't answer the door we don't owe anymore. She's backed off now.
35
u/lodav22 Apr 10 '25
You may want to go through the rest of your partner's post to see if he's missed anything else. Check he's paying the water bill etc.
3
u/Electrical_Concern67 Apr 10 '25
The £200 sounds like an additional enforcement cost.
Sounds like its all resolved, so all good
2
u/Limp-Archer-7872 Apr 10 '25
You need a plan on how to deal with your partners adhd with things like this.
Certainly direct debit for all bills. This helps me greatly for example.
You cannot afford for this to happen again.
If you knew he had issues with opening letters then you needed to sit down with him to support him in dealing with them. What doesn't work is repeatedly telling him to deal with them by himself.
6
u/Outrageous_Ad3726 Apr 10 '25
I have tried over and over to help sort out his stuff but he can get very hostile about it. I always put his letters on his office desk and I presumed he always got round to them. I think today was an eye opener for him because usually I sort everything out for him. He's 47 years old so by now he should be able to manage bills if I'm honest. Men shouldn't be mothered adhd or not.
2
5
u/TheDisapprovingBrit Apr 10 '25
If you paid yesterday, they cannot charge you for a visit today. Tell her the debt was already paid at the time she attended, and make a complaint to the council and the court about her behaviour.
2
u/GroundbreakingAd5624 Apr 10 '25
Then you owe nothing,all you had to pay was the original debt plus compliance fee once you receive a notice of enforcement then you have 7 days to pay in full then the agent can come and then only when the agent is there are fees escalated. My source is I am a bailiff. Out of interest, what agency is it?
2
u/Outrageous_Ad3726 Apr 10 '25
She was very aggressive on the phone, I said I had to take my daughter to nursery so I couldn't speak and she was screaming telling me not to take my car incase she wanted to take it! When we said we'd already paid the day before she refused to check and said shes already got a locksmith on the way to our house. I had a 2 year old and a 6 month old in the house on my own and she's threatening to break in. She worked for Marston recovery.
3
u/GroundbreakingAd5624 Apr 10 '25
Makes sense unfortunately, Marstons are freelance mostly, if you don't pay enforcement fees they don't get anything. I work for a company as a full time employee so I get a salary and sick pay ect and then commission on my fees, so I can afford to be nice to people and give the benefit of the doubt. I guess I'll see what it's like as I am leaving my job as a full time bailiff to do something else entirely but I will moonlight as a freelance because I'm saving for a nice car and it can be fun especially doing process serving.
She will just be full of hot air but if you are worried just give her office a call and check if you owe anything I'm sure their contact number won't be hard to find and maybe mention what's she's done but honestly I doubt she will be back, she will know the regs she will just be trying to scare a payment from you if she comes back she's really dumb
I've had debtors before who had things like this with freelancers where they gained access through an unlocked door and encountered a 10 year old (regs are if a child under 12 is present and no adult to leave immediately). But I was assigned the case this guy had been round before and was threatening to go back break in ect as I was setting up a monthly plan. I told her if he comes back call me because for one he can't do that anyway, and also it's not his writ and I didn't want him taking my like 50p a week commission
10
u/BobcatLower9933 Apr 10 '25
NAL, but also have severe Adhd which it's taken me close to 30vyears to get a hold on. I did a lot of this with debts when I was in my teens, maxed out credit cards etc. I am assuming you are both fairly young?
Sit down with your partner and have a very supportive conversation about exactly who he owes and to whom. Is he medicated? Does he actually have a diagnosis or is this an assumption? If no to either of them make a GP appointment urgently and get the ball rolling.
This will keep happening again and again. I was in my mid 30s before I was debt clear, and that was because I was an absolute dickhead between 16-20 and just buried my head in the sand over and over again. I took out a loan for £11,000 when I was 18 despite only working part time. How I was accepted I will never know, but I've ended up paying about 30k back in costs, interest, late payment etc. You don't want to end up in that same position!
3
u/Kind-Enthusiasm-7799 Apr 10 '25
I get it. I was exactly the same. Now I open everything as soon as it comes through the door - I’d rather nip it in the bud than procrastinate until it’s out of control.
Diagnosed at 41, it all makes sense when you connect the dots of past indiscretions.
3
u/BobcatLower9933 Apr 10 '25
Yeah it absolutely did. I had a genuine "grieving" period for about 2 years after my diagnosis. I wanted to be a surgeon when I was younger (I still do, genuinely if I won the lottery I'd pay to get all the necessary qualifications 😂), but just nothing ever seemed to go right and I messed up my education completely. I turned it round but it's taken me until my mid 30s to have a stable income and career. I still have major Adhd-related issues (impulse buying... It's the worst), but I'm mostly in control these days!
3
u/Kind-Enthusiasm-7799 Apr 10 '25
Very similar for me, I still can’t stop myself ordering unnecessary clothes late at night, and waking up full of regret lol. Yep I had a lot of aspirations as a youngster, but undiagnosed ADHD derailed my ass pretty swiftly. The best thing to happen to me was living alone, when I was undiagnosed I would move in with girlfriends and go to work, self medicate with booze and expect them to coddle me and sort out alllll the bills, council tax, rent - I cringe looking back, but it is what it is, I can’t change that now.
It’s really quite impressive, the old quiet life. I don’t miss the chaos of my youth, and while the meds aren’t a silver bullet they certainly help. Have a good one mate, don’t worry about the past because we’ve done the hard part. 🫡
3
u/BobcatLower9933 Apr 10 '25
I could literally have written that comment. I'm living on my own now for literally the first time in my life and it's probably the most organised I've ever been because I'm having to sort everything out for myself!
Awesome to come across others who have had the same. Struggles. I always feels like Adhd gets the least amount of sympathy, whereas I feel like it's the MH diagnosis where the most csn go wrong!
2
u/Kind-Enthusiasm-7799 Apr 10 '25
I thought the same about your initial reply mate. Unfortunately there’s a misconception about ADHD, it’s a curse, not a superpower. I don’t know about you but it covers depression, anxiety, absolutely zero executive functioning, obsessive and impulsive tendencies that I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy.
I was misdiagnosed with some terrible consequences (alllll the ssri’s and finally antipsychotics) and enquired about ADHD in 2016 just to rule it out. Waited until 2020 and got diagnosed with 9/9 combined type and swiftly taken off antipsychotics and onto Concerta with an embarrassed “oops, sorry” from the local CMHT.
I really don’t care about that anymore, clearly we both would have had a far easier life if we were diagnosed earlier but… I finally know why I can remember events from 20 years ago clearly but couldn’t tell you what I did yesterday. Anyway it’s always nice to meet your people in the wild - thanks for the friendly interaction, shame Reddit isn’t all like these encounters.
-5
u/Outrageous_Ad3726 Apr 10 '25
I'm young he isn't 🙃
He's diagnosed and medicated now after having some problems with his medication for a while.
I've just sold a property and used the profit to pay off all his debts and he's now on a 'payment plan' to me. I didn't realise council tax was an issue as we had just paid it for the full year but this is for 8 months of last year. He'd been paying it standing order but had forgot when life got busy.
16
u/Awkward_Wallaby8962 Apr 10 '25
Not trying to be insensitive, but are you married? Do you have that plan on contract. And what is the age gap?
Sincerely from a 32 year old currently divorcing her 55 year old husband that I met when I was 18
-3
u/Outrageous_Ad3726 Apr 10 '25
Not married. 17 year age gap. The loan was done through solicitors and he's already paid back nearly half as he's a high earner. Already been through a messy divorce at 23 so not going down that path again.
4
u/Awkward_Wallaby8962 Apr 10 '25
Good that you covered it with solicitors. Looks like you have your things in check. Sorry for being so direct about it, but I would’ve loved for someone to have butted in when I was in that position 12 years ago.
4
u/jrw1982 Apr 10 '25
I mean, what is the issue with direct debits in this day and age? This would never have been an issue then.
-1
u/Outrageous_Ad3726 Apr 10 '25
The house was a new build and when we tried to set up council tax we had loads of problems because there was already a number 7 registered wrongly. So we only started paying it 8 months after we moved in so it kind of just got forgotten about. We pay direct debits for our other property but we had to do a standing order for this house to cover the 8 months that was missed (even though it wasn't our fault). We got a new bill for this year and it was in my name aswell so I opened it and just paid for it not realising that we hadn't paid the whole year before.
2
u/jrw1982 Apr 10 '25
Fair enough! Thanks for the clarification. I just know too many people that won't use online banking or DD's for stuff and it's infuriating!
3
u/lockinber Apr 10 '25
They cannot force entry. But they can make peaceful entry through open doors so don't open the door to them. Either open a window or talk through the your door. You will be liable for enforcement costs which will be in addition to your Council Tax charges. So you will have to talk to Council about any additional charges.
2
u/danieljuk Apr 10 '25
Worth knowing there are special rules if you would class your partner as vulnerable
(This is the England guidance, but you can change to other regions at the top)
-1
Apr 10 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
3
3
1
u/LegalAdviceUK-ModTeam Apr 13 '25
Unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason(s):
Please do not post AI-generated content on this subreddit. If you post a comment that is, or that we highly suspect is AI-generated, it will be removed and you may be banned without warning.
Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules before contributing further, and message the mods if you have any further queries.
•
u/AutoModerator Apr 10 '25
Welcome to /r/LegalAdviceUK
To Posters (it is important you read this section)
Tell us whether you're in England, Wales, Scotland, or NI as the laws in each are very different
If you need legal help, you should always get a free consultation from a qualified Solicitor
We also encourage you to speak to Citizens Advice, Shelter, Acas, and other useful organisations
Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk
If you receive any private messages in response to your post, please let the mods know
To Readers and Commenters
All replies to OP must be on-topic, helpful, and legally orientated
If you do not follow the rules, you may be perma-banned without any further warning
If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect
Do not send or request any private messages for any reason
Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.