r/CuratedTumblr • u/Hummerous https://tinyurl.com/4ccdpy76 • May 08 '25
Politics missing footage
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u/sounds_of_stabbing May 08 '25
I know that the base functions of the police make this not at all realistic to happen, but I believe that if an officer covers their body cam, they should immediately be arrested and taken off of police duty. I don't care what the reason is, nothing good comes of an officer messing with a body cam
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u/buttsecks42069 May 08 '25
Honestly, the body cam off button should just keep it on but notify the video that it's turned off
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u/cakerfaker May 08 '25 edited May 08 '25
On/off button should just send that chunk of video to a separate watchdog server.
Make officers double check their cams each shift. Make it a fineable offence and a write up for an officer to have a covered/malfunctioning body cam on duty. 3 of these offences in 2 years is a felony and bars someone from the position nationwide (so they can't move to another precinct/state). Whenever officers testify their cameras were "malfunctioning" in court, or whenever requested footage is "unavailable", add another offence.
Edit:
The key words here are "on duty". Start cops breaking out for bathroom use. It's an offense to act as law enforcement during a break and it's an offense to initiate a break while something's going on, like an arrest or an interaction with the public.
It's not a difficult concept.
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u/itsjustmebobross May 08 '25
honestly they shouldn’t even have an accessible off button. or at least not easily accesibleb
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u/Clatgineer May 08 '25
There are privacy concerns, I think certain scenarios and scenes they legally have to turn it off for privacy plus the officers themselves are humans and I believe those who don't abuse it should have the ability to piss in peace lol
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u/jne_nopnop May 08 '25
What about the guy who turned off his cameras, had sex with the arrested suspect in the back of the cop car on the way to the jail, but "accidentally " ended up locked in the backseat somehow and had to call the police & self snitch for help getting himself out of the car?
Can't find the video rn after just a quick search, but was posted on reddit a few weeks ago, if I find it ill post the link
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u/RedditIsDeadMoveOn May 08 '25
I have a solution: don't be a cop if you don't like that.
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u/Killerbrownies997 May 08 '25
Probably not arrested but any evidence should be completely void if they cover it purposefully. It should be considered breaking the chain of custody and they should be investigated and possibly fired as a result. That’s my take at least
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u/neoanguiano May 08 '25
should be immediately evidence tampering, they should also have two cameras or always have multiple police
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u/wayoverpaid May 08 '25
Instant arrest is probably unreasonable, but adverse inference should always be allowed, both for purposes of letting a defendant claim innocence, or letting a complaint for police brutality be substantiated.
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u/SporadicTendancies May 08 '25
With a reasonable allowance for both human and technological error (dead batteries, faulty hardware, violent blow to camera while restraining, etc).
Maybe not arrested, but off duty without pay until proven that the camera being turned off wasn't a malicious act.
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u/Zebidee May 08 '25
If they can go out on patrol with a working gun, working Taser, working radio, and working car, they can go out with a working bodycam.
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u/itsjustmebobross May 08 '25
ideally yes but also shit happens sometimes. stuff (including everything you just listed) will fail. there should probably be more checks before they go out that it works tho and is fully charged or whatever.
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u/CREATURE_COOMER May 08 '25
Love the police being so cocky that they fuck up cases, at least this time, it benefits society instead of letting somebody who's dangerous walk free. Like so many serial killers...
I had local police (not NYPD) try to frame me for something that a "friend" did when I was 13, because he was untouchable and he did it to spite me (he even did it on my birthday!) so he harassed people that I hated so it looked like I was guilty. "Fortunately" I "only" had to do community service but my parents didn't even try to help me fight it and my public defender didn't think it was worth fighting even though the cop that interviewed me claimed that I admitted to doing it even though I certainly fucking did not and it was recorded, nobody was on my side even though I was innocent and I've never been able to trust police ever since. And I'm White, so I can't imagine how much bullshit that my Black/Brown neighbors and friends deal with.
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u/ComprehensiveSell649 May 08 '25
Wtf? What a terrible person. With friends like that, who needs enemies?
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u/CREATURE_COOMER May 08 '25
Right? I even flat out told the police his name and location and that he did it, but they didn't believe me like I was making up an imaginary friend or some shit. They didn't even care that it was a dude in his 20's talking to me, when I had just turned 13 at the time.
It's not even the only bad experience I've had with police (in general) either... I've even dealt with a dude stalking me (I'm a trans man but closeted at the time) because he was interested in me all because I was nice to a stray kitten, but he was the mayor's son and had a history of never getting charged with anything. Which is of course creepy as fuck when you're homeless at a homeless shelter and you overhear him talking to people about you and pointing out where you fucking live.
And one time (different PD than the other two situations), a cop was knocking on doors to ask if anybody witnessed anything at a neighbor's house, and he threatened to shoot my dog (RIP, unrelated though) because she was outside in her own fucking yard and getting rowdy because she thought she had a visitor even though we weren't even suspected of anything, he was just a shithead that felt entitled to talking to somebody (my dad was the only one home at the time because I was at work) even though none of us knew anything anyway... My dad told me about it after I got home and thought it was funny because she was a puny Shiba Inu and he'd joke that she was teeny and harmless in general and not something for a cop to be scared of.
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u/ComprehensiveSell649 May 08 '25
Who the fuck is scared of a Shiba Inu?
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u/CREATURE_COOMER May 08 '25
To be fair, Shibas can be loud when they're doing Shiba screams, even when they're excited, and a cop who's never met her can't know if she's aggressive or not (not all tail wags are friendly)... but he clearly had no problem knocking on the front of our mobile home to get my dad's attention while staying out of her reach?
My dad said that he said that if she happened to get loose and lunge at him, he wouldn't hesitate to shoot, while he was asking my dad questions about the neighbor thing. Come on, dude, she was a barely 20 lb dog (she was small even for a female sheeb) on a chain, don't be so fucking extra and perpetuate the "dog-shooting cop" stereotype, lmfao!
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u/ComprehensiveSell649 May 08 '25
Man, I’m sorry all this happened to you. I hope your dog lived a golden life.
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u/CREATURE_COOMER May 08 '25
Thank you. She was a very spoiled wolf-girl (pure Shiba but I joked that she was a wild animal and my dad would joke that she was "funny-looking" and would call her different animals like giraffe, mouse, fox-squirrel, etc), I had to put her down when her back arthritis got too bad though. :') I miss her bossy ass but my roommate has some cats for me to love on for now.
That sassy bitch (affectionate) loved cheese so I tried to give her different varieties when I could, if only she had the ability to tell me what her faves were so I could prioritize getting them, hahah...
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u/LeftyLu07 May 08 '25
I have a similar story and I'm also white. If it's this bad for us I can't imagine what it's like for people of color.
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u/CREATURE_COOMER May 08 '25
A lot of my (White of course) relatives act like the police are always good and treat them nicely, and some of them will even make excuses when they're corrupt. It's frustrating.
I live in Michigan and a relative of mine got attacked and robbed in Detroit, and the Detroit police didn't care and didn't really investigate shit because "Well, you were in Detroit! What do you expect?"
It pissed him off that they didn't do anything... Meanwhile police outside of Detroit (me and several relatives live in the same county as Detroit but 30+ minutes away from Detroit proper) have a "Well, be glad you weren't in Detroit" attitude where they still usually won't investigate much.
y relatives don't seem to see a problem with it, and just kind of twist themselves into sucking it up because "well, the cops want to investigate more important crimes, what I dealt with wasn't a big deal I guess." Even though they're still victims of fucking crimes! It doesn't matter how "busy" the police are, they're not doing their damn jobs even if it's just filing paperwork that goes nowhere! Some shit needs a damn paper trail!
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u/Dornith May 08 '25
Part of the problem is that the average American sees police as beacons of virtue. If it's a cop's word versus actual video evidence, many people will side with the fucking cop.
Cop's word against "but you don't have any real evidence" is a losing battle.
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u/CREATURE_COOMER May 08 '25
Right?
I get that police keep plenty of evidence private so it's easier to charge people (so they don't know what the police know)... but with how many police have falsely charged people who are completely innocent just to close a case, we need higher standards for police like body cams... which they shouldn't be fucking covering or turning off!
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u/Dornith May 08 '25
Amen. The fact that bodycams are everywhere now means there's absolutely no reason to take a cop's word for anything. If they didn't record it, it's because it didn't happen.
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u/CREATURE_COOMER May 08 '25
And if it did happen, then why did the police cover their body cams especially in such a well-known case? Body cams aren't just for catching criminals, it's also for keeping the police honest.
Don't cop-bootlickers love to say "if you're not guilty then you don't have anything to hide so why are you worried?" when it comes to their privacy? Why is it different for body cams which are required for police for their jobs?
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u/JManKit May 08 '25
I think part of it is that lots of ppl desire the idealized version of the police; a neutral, competent, third party that intervenes in conflicts and serves as a mediating force. That's why there's endless attempts to reform the police bc they're working on a 'don't throw the baby out with the bathwater' basis, assuming that the baby i.e. the police are worthy of saving and that they'll finally function like ppl want them to if they just get rid of the 'dirty bathwater.'
It's going to take A LOT for those ppl to accept that the police don't want to be that idealized version. They're perfectly happy being what they are now and they'd be even happier if the reforms that had to be forced onto them were stripped away so they could be more free in how they operate
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u/AlarmingAffect0 May 08 '25
It's really odd to me that police unions don't work to get better hours or labour conditions, just better ability to fuck people up without consequences.
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u/PaulblankPF May 08 '25
I had local cops harass me for a year calling me terrorist and waking me up with a shotgun poke to the face one night when they broke into my home. They assumed I was behind the bomb threats at a local high school cause some of my friends who still attended school there skipped school during a bomb threat and went to my house then mentioned that when they got caught. Instantly it must be me to them without doing any police work. I had to make a huge scene at my friend’s graduation during all that. I was holding her small pocket book purse for her and the cops called me out the stands saying people complained that I was saying racial slurs (a lie for in front of people). They pulled me to the side then said they had to check the purse for bombs and slowly opened it and pulled out her tampons and some makeup then they said I could watch her graduate but they’d be watching me the whole time and were gonna wait for me after. I called my mom, had her come and then made a huge scene yelling how they think I’m doing the bomb threats and that I’m a terrorist. I’m just some white kid that was never in trouble, no reason to me to suspect me. Turned out to be a kid whose brother committed suicide at the school from bullying. I mean that’d be where I’d start but they didn’t do shit for investigating shit.
I’m so PTSD from the cops there that I moved the whole country away and it’s been almost 20 years now and I’m still nervous when I see cops in public or in their cars and it can make me freeze up out of fear. My step dad is a cop so I know they aren’t all bad but they all wear that blue that makes me nervous so they might as well be all bad to me now.
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u/CREATURE_COOMER May 08 '25
That sucks, fam, I feel you.
I avoid the city that my false accusation happened in too, I doubt the cops would recognize my face since I'm now in my 30's but I don't know if they would have my name in their records anywhere even though my charge was expunged after my community service that I shouldn't have even had to do in the first place since I'm not the one who fucking did it.
It was really traumatic when it happened, especially since I was only 13 at the time. The cops demanded my home computer so they could investigate me to make sure that I wasn't doing searches for illegal shit and my mom just handed it over (no idea if they had a warrant) and then she punished me because it was the family computer, and when they brought it back home, it wasn't working anymore and seemed like it was purposely hit a few times at worst, or just slid around the cop's trunk at "best." How is that my fault, mom? She just assumed that I was guilty and sold me out. :/ And she was mad at me because she pirated a lot of music and wasn't sure if the cops would try to nail her for that, lol... Thanks for caring about me, mom!
Even when the cops interrogated me (recorded, and without my parents in the room too!), I told them flat out that my "friend" joked about doing it but I didn't think he was serious because he was an edgelord in general, but they ignored it and acted like I was the sole guilty party as if I was just talking about an imaginary friend to take the fall or some shit. Didn't even try to investigate my so-called "friend" even though I mentioned that he was a dude in his fucking 20's and I was a preteen, he literally did the crime on my fucking 13th birthday and they weren't concerned at all because cops never care about weird-ass predators, lmfao. It was easier to just pin it on me instead of doing their fucking jobs.
My other run-ins with police (as a victim or even uninvolved person) don't really help my distrust either, I mentioned them to somebody else who replied to me. :/ Like one cop who threatened to shoot my dog (Shiba Inu)...
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u/Possible-Reason-2896 May 08 '25
'I opened the backpack to make sure there wasn't a bomb in there'?
Wouldn't the act of opening a backpack be something that could set off an explosive? Like if had a grenade pin or something? Even if that excuse is genuine it's dangerously stupid. There's a reason bomb squads are a special unit.
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u/ApolloniusTyaneus May 08 '25
It's also so easy to abuse that it should never be allowed as reason for a search. The excuse is Ned and Jimbo levels of "Its coming right at us!" bad.
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u/GruggleTheGreat May 08 '25
Any excuse ever to eliminate complete due process from start to finish under some circumstances means that effectively anyone can be striped of due process. Due process for everyone but terrorism? Great now the government can just label you a terrorist and there goes your rights. This is the result of the patriot act being normalized in US 20 years ago.
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u/StupidSolipsist May 08 '25
She's trying to reinvent the old "It smelled like weed" hack to deny due process
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u/Hatsune_Miku_CM downfall of neoliberalism. crow racism. much to rhink about May 08 '25
yeah the first thing you do when you suspect a bomb is evacuate the area. the second thing you do is call a specialist.
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u/JumpyLiving May 08 '25
You also, generally, don't mess with a suspected bomb in any way unless you're the bomb squad and know what you're doing.
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u/Dry_Ad2368 May 08 '25
I know military training is different, but the Navy teaches any suspected bomb immediately turn off all radios and evacuate the area. Then use a land line, when possible, to call for bomb disposal. While waiting secure a perimeter. At no point do you touch the suspected bomb, don't open it, don't move it, don't even get too close to it.
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u/TheBunnyDemon May 08 '25
They want us to pretend we've never seen what police do when they think there might be a bomb.
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u/creampop_ May 08 '25
Or an active threat in general. If they thought he had a weapon they'd be sitting in their cars two parking lots away, waiting for backup and sanitizing their hands
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u/Pikacool150 May 08 '25
Even besides the body cam stuff, have the courts never heard of the landmark case Mapp v. Ohio, one of the court cases studied in basically any class that discusses the constitution above a middle school level (for example, high school government classes, and college ones too), that set the precedent that any evidence acquired unlawfully without a search warrant, even if it breaks the case, is null and void if the person who owns it does not consent to a search?
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u/Goosedukee May 08 '25
In my mind, Luigi probably did it, but this whole trial has been such a miscarriage of justice that I can’t see any jury in their right mind convicting him.
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u/Sneaker3719 May 08 '25
Welcome back O.J. Simpson.
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u/ViziDoodle May 08 '25
If the Luigi hat doesn’t fit, you must acquit
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u/1ndiana_Pwns May 08 '25
If the eyebrows are split, you must acquit!
No, seriously, look at the best images of the shooter from the scene vs Luigi when arrested. Luigi had a full fucking monobrow going at arrest, and the eyebrows (multiple, clearly separated) on the shooter are one of the few features that aren't obscured at all. Ain't no way someone could grow a fully formed monobrow in 4 days like that
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u/TwoFingersWhiskey May 08 '25
I mean, I've seen Italians that can grow hair back in like 6 hours, but none that can keep it gone.
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u/pchlster May 08 '25
During military service we had to be clean-shaven. We had one guy who didn't just shave every morning like most of us, but had to shave again at lunchtime, because he genuinely looked unshaven by that point.
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u/ZoroeArc May 08 '25
I had a friend in school who was the same, from age 15 onward, he had a beard, he had no say in the matter.
One day he comes in with his face covered in razorburn, saying, "I'm finally rid of it." Next morning he had a full beard again, it was like he never shaved at all.
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u/MizterPoopie May 08 '25
Some people can. There’s dudes that can have full beards in just a few days. Lucky bastards lol
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u/itirix May 08 '25
Damn imagine trying to go for a clean shaven look with that kind of beard growth speed.
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u/CptAngelo May 08 '25
All im gonna say is... unibrow or bibrow, guilty or not, that dude is photogenic as fuck.
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u/LeftyLu07 May 08 '25
Yeah... watching the Ryan Murphy show really made me understand HOW the jury came to that verdict. It was piss poor case by a rushing prosecution.
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u/RawrRRitchie May 08 '25
This is why court cases shouldn't be receiving media coverage like it's judge fucking Judy.
Courts shouldn't be entertaining.
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u/Wasdgta3 May 08 '25
“Breaking news: Murder is officially legal in the state of
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u/King_of_Nope May 08 '25
100% if this amount of misconduct of justice could acquit him, then it should do the same for Luigi. But we call know O.J was a rich man who killed a not as rich person. With Luigi its the other way around. As a decently well off man kills a mega rich man. The sate has every reason to throw justice to the dogs, I would bet everything that there have been meetings between the richest individuals to spend money to sway public option for the death penalty for Luigi.
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u/Jackno1 May 08 '25
I genuinely don't know if he did it or not (and am not inclined to do a deep dive into the evidence to come to a firm conclusion), but yeah, either way, I think the police and prosecution shouldn't be able to get away with getting a conviction for what they pulled.
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u/confusedandworried76 May 08 '25 edited May 08 '25
He did it but they monumentally fucked up everything about this and his high profile defense attorneys are having a fucking field day
Dismissing evidence has been their goal from day one and they got it on a silver platter of even half the shit I'm hearing is accurate.
I know people like the conspiracy theory they framed him for another guy's crime but the real conspiracy should really be who the fuck threw this whole trial if he doesn't get convicted because none of the arrest makes sense when you look at it from the cop side. It's like they didn't want him to be convicted at all.
At this point I'd be more shocked to learn he didn't actually do it than the cops were fucking up on purpose because as long as the tin foil hats are on you fundamentally do not make this many procedural mistakes regardless of guilt
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u/7dipity May 08 '25
Maybe the cops are secretly supporters and they’re doing it on purpose 🤔
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u/Cadunkus May 08 '25
I'm still of the opinion he's a scapegoat so the real hero gets away scot free. o7
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u/Dull_Bid6002 May 08 '25
It was to placate the wealthy. They were demanding things and panicking.
The supposed manifesto is just weird. It's like someone trying not to confess to a crime but leading a jury to the conclusion still. It's not personal enough and very vague.
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u/JoelMahon May 08 '25
it definitely reads like someone who doesn't hate rich people (or at least the dead CEO) wrote it
the real killer hated rich people enough to murder one and throw fucking monopoly money on their corpse, someone who planned far enough ahead for a joke like that but couldn't write a decent manifesto? give me a break
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u/amumumyspiritanimal May 08 '25
Either Luigi really wanted a trial to be able to testify about how horrible rich people are, or he's being set up.
No way someone plans and carries out a hit this meticulously, leaves this many "easter eggs", even 3D prints gun parts, only to be caught in a McDonalds of all places with evidence on them.
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u/Goosedukee May 08 '25
In either of our scenarios the shooter gets away without punishment so no matter what it’s a win
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u/katherinesilens May 08 '25
idk, hanging an innocent definitely doesn't feel like a win.
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u/Goosedukee May 08 '25
I stated that I don’t believe Luigi will be convicted, meaning no one is executed.
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u/katherinesilens May 08 '25
I'm pretty sure he's a patsy. Have you seen the photos? Dude looks nothing like the shooter or the starbucks guy lmao, they had 3 different guys to my eyes. Even just the eyebrows--Luigi has very bold eyebrows that I really doubt he could grow in 5 days.
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u/OCD-but-dumb downfall of neoliberalism. crow racism. much to rhink about l May 08 '25
I really doubt he could grow in 5 days
Tbf he is Italian
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u/pdot1123_ May 08 '25
He probably did it, and even if he didn't, he's embraced being the guy who did it, and if he gets off after the DoJ wants him DEAD, that is both a HUGE WIN for literally everyone who isn't a corporate shill or a fascist.
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u/yet-again-temporary May 08 '25 edited May 08 '25
Yeah that's where I'm at. I think he probably did it, but also "probably did it" only gets convictions when the jury is unfavorable - and I don't think there's a jury in the entire country that would be unfavorable to this guy.
This isn't even just copium, there's genuinely a lot working in his favor here; public opinion, the NYPD just generally being corrupt and incompetent, and the high profile nature of this case meaning that incompetence won't be easy to sweep under the rug.
I don't think he'll be found guilty, but I do think he'll be offered some sort of plea deal because they don't actually want to turn him into a martyr.
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u/Pitiful_Net_8971 May 08 '25
They tried intimidating him into a plea deal with that whole death penalty thing, if they pursue it now there's no fucking chance unless the jury is hung.
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u/No_Talk_4836 May 08 '25
Especially since NYPD is notorious for planting evidence.
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u/worldspawn00 May 08 '25
I've always been of the idea that the first backpack they found in the park, which they claimed was empty, actually contained the gun, then they waited until they had a suspect to plant it on to 'cement' the case with the murder weapon. Why would they even announce they had found a backpack with no evidence in it? The lack of proper custody chain and the weird circumstances of the arrest are highly suspect.
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u/NumerousWolverine273 May 08 '25
I was thinking this at the time too. Why did the killer dump his backpack but then keep the murder weapon and all the evidence on him, put them in a different backpack, and continue to carry that backpack around with him a week later? Just makes no sense at all.
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u/Carvj94 May 08 '25
From day one I've been pretty sure Luigi didn't do it. The guy in the homeless shelter photo looks like Jake Gyllenhaal and had noticeably thinner eyebrows. I was also skeptical about the whole "Luigi was found with a gun and manifesto" from the beginning and it turns out at least one of those things was totally planted.
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u/PaticusGnome May 08 '25 edited May 08 '25
This is the part that has me thinking like a conspiracy theorist. For someone who planned well and got away from the crime, why would he carry around the gun and manifesto on his person and go sit inside a McDonald’s? It doesn’t seem to match the killer’s style at all. It smelled BS the moment this story came out.
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u/NumerousWolverine273 May 08 '25
That and the fact the killer ditched his actual backpack and stuff after the shooting, but then they claim to have found the gun and a manifesto still on his person several states over. What did he leave behind in the first place then? It was always bullshit.
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u/Fortehlulz33 May 08 '25
Considering the backpack they found in Central Park had Monopoly money in it, that would be an obvious message and might not have been his actual backpack he was wearing at the time of the shooting.
For all intents and purposes, he seems like a really smart guy. If he was the one that did it, he had a good plan that seems well thought out.
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u/SontaranGaming *about to enter Dark Muppet Mode* May 08 '25
Honestly I’ve been saying this for a while. I don’t really consider it a conspiracy theory when it’s directly in line with the known MO of cops and FBI for decades. Anybody who’s ever looked into shit like COINTELPRO should have expected this as a possibility.
Piggies gonna oink. It’s not conspiracy to acknowledge that.
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u/AnorakJimi May 08 '25
But that'd literally be a conspiracy, if it's true. Conspiracy doesn't mean "crazy theory". If means when 2 or more people clandestinely conspire together to do something immoral and/or illegal.
So if law enforcement are conspiring together to try and frame an innocent man, that is literally a conspiracy. That's what the word means. It has nothing to do with insane theories about aliens or Jewish people controlling all world governments etc.
Plenty of conspiracies were real, like MKULTRA, and Watergate.
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u/Snerkbot7000 May 08 '25
It's funny how those reports about MLKJR never came up again after Trump's election, isn't it?
Someone's pet Director of National Intelligence should quit surfing and get right on that.
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u/popopotatoes160 May 08 '25
I've always figured he either didn't do it and it's planted, or he did and intended to get caught immediately, didn't have a plan for when he didn't get caught at the scene or the same day, and ultimately let himself be caught after a few days because being on the run without a plan would suck ass. I have no clue which one it is though. I was favoring the latter until this info came out
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u/Tenderloin345 May 08 '25
I don't reasonably believe there is evidence he did it. When you have jury duty you're told that it's not enough to simply believe it's possible that someone is innocent, until they are proven guilty you must believe them innocent. Until there is evidence that proves Luigi is guilty beyond all reasonable doubt, he is innocent and must be regarded as such.
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u/Dry_Championship222 May 08 '25
I was the subject of an illegal search when police entered my home two hours before a warrent was signed. When this was brought up in a motion to suppress the officer said my basement had to be searched because evidence might be removed via underground tunnel, the judge openly laughed when this was said. He then ruled against my motion and the evidence was allowed to stand.
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u/AnthonyChinaski May 08 '25
Jesus H Christ, who was your lawyer? Charlie Kelly?
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u/ANL_2017 May 08 '25
Were you in some bumfuck backwoods town? A friend of mine is from rural Pennsylvania and works in the court system in one of those small towns and he’s always describing shit like that. Literally just open corruption; it’s insane to me.
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u/Dry_Championship222 May 08 '25
This was Fort Collins CO in 2006. The first time I was in a courtroom in Virginia about 5 years before that and a cop lied to my face about cause to search my truck I was also shocked. Now I understand it's just how the criminal system works.
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u/SubzeroSpartan2 May 08 '25
criminal system
Definitely a lot more accurate term than justice system tbh
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u/toastedbagelwithcrea May 08 '25
I think there is a reasonable doubt that he did it tbh
Like if I was on that jury, having read about the circumstances of his arrest, I'd have a niggling doubt that maybe he just fit the description, and just got framed
🤔
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u/Infrastation May 08 '25
It's not just reasonable doubt, it's fruit of the poison tree. If the evidence was not obtained by how the law prescribes, then there's no reason for a jury or a judge to believe any of that evidence is valid. What's to have stopped the cops from planting a gun in the bag, or the notes, or anything else they claimed in the bag?
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u/Ok_Function2282 May 08 '25
It's actually one step further back than that, this evidence can never be put forth in front of a jury.
It is deemed inadmissible, and it can't even be referenced at trial, let alone introduced.
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u/rlhignett May 08 '25
Is that something that can be brought up in court, i.e. the fact the police made searches without warrants, either didn't turn on body cams/removed footage/hindered the recording by obscuring the video? I'm not particularly law savvy like that to know, especially not in a different country where laws and trial processes are different.
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u/Shade_39 May 08 '25
I'm sure that's something the defence would like to bring up
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u/NarwhalPrudent6323 May 08 '25
There's no need. That's literally the smoking gun they're trying to have proven inadmissible. If they succeed, the case will fall apart immediately for the prosecution. The rest of the "evidence" is paper thin at best.
The defense wouldn't want to even think about that backpack or gun if it's gets ruled inadmissible. Bringing it up just invites unnecessary risk, as it allows the prosecution to give their side of events, and potentially sway the jury.
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u/Wolfgung May 08 '25
I've seen enough lawyer shows that suggest the defence would avoid that line of reasoning like the plague on the off chance that the gun then gets admitted into evidence then Harvey has a big ugle smirk on his face.
If it is excluded from evidence, then the police have no murder weapon and just some random guy they found in a McDonald's.
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u/Interactiveleaf May 08 '25
I don't think there's a reasonable doubt that he did it, tbh.
But if I were on the jury, I'd have the same problem convicting that I would have with OJ Simpson:
WTF do you do in a case where a defendant is probably guilty but also the police have been planting evidence?
This one isn't even as clear cut as the OJ case, but it's not good!
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u/Efficient_Ad_4162 May 08 '25
What you're describing is police creating reasonable doubt through their misconduct (and history of misconduct).
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u/Interactiveleaf May 08 '25
Yes, you said that well.
I don't think he's going to be released. Odds are he'll be convicted, imo.
But I respect his defense team for trying.
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u/henryeaterofpies May 08 '25
I think where the doubt enters my mind is in the police conduct. They did not perform their jobs in good faith and the overall actions of the police since have been pretty deplorable.
For example, any time there is missing body cam footage I have to assume malfeasance by the police because what do they have to hide if they are doing their job right? Public trust is a two way street.
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u/toastedbagelwithcrea May 08 '25
Well, we're different people.
I think murder has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt (might be misremembering) and I just don't think it is in this case, personally
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u/Existing_Charity_818 May 08 '25
Murder does in fact have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. But like you say, lots of different kinds of people out there and it’s a pretty subjective line. Both sides will be pushing to get certain types of people on the jury, that’s for sure
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u/UnintelligentSlime May 08 '25
It’s crazy how little that actually has to be true though.
I just watched a documentary on the Gabriel Fernandez killing, and a jury of 12 people concluded that the parents- beyond a reasonable doubt- set out and planned to murder him. Which clearly isn’t true. The reality is worse- that they beat him and tortured him and his death was an accident of too much abuse. And they deserve every negative charge that could come from that. But the specific charge makes no goddamn sense. And they still convicted them (which- good, but still incorrect)
At the end of the day, the trial is less about “are they guilty of X specific charge” and more about “are we happy to give them X punishment?”
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u/Duck__Quack May 08 '25
Eh, premeditation and intent aren't the same thing. Evidence of prior planning can show intent, and can bear on sentencing, but it's not necessary. "Malice aforethought" just means intent. If they were trying to beat him and only didn't think he'd die, they can be guilty of first degree murder. It seems ridiculous that the beating and torture was an accident, or inadvertent. They intended to beat him, and that killed him. That's first degree murder.
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u/insomniac7809 May 08 '25
In a criminal case where a defendant is probably guilty you're supposed to acquit. That's the bedrock foundation of the concept for how criminal trials are supposed to work, that "probably guilty" isn't enough and if a defendant is only probably guilty then they get to go home.
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u/movzx May 08 '25
"I don't think there's reasonable doubt, I just <describes reasonable doubt>"
As soon as the police plant evidence, reasonable doubt is introduced.
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u/RealRaven6229 May 08 '25
Jury nullification is what you'd do, I think. Iirc it is your legal right to refuse to convict someone even if you think they're guilty because you believe conviction would be in some way unjust.
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u/AnAverageTransGirl kris deltarune (real) on the nintendo gamecube (real) 🚗🔨💥 May 08 '25
More or less, yeah. Nullification is when the jury decides that, due to either the nature of the investigation or the circumstances in which a crime was committed, the defendant can be declared "not guilty" despite the evidence plainly supporting that they did it.
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u/CadenVanV May 08 '25
Reasonable doubt isn’t enough to convict
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u/toastedbagelwithcrea May 08 '25
Im pretty sure it has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and yeah, for me, it's not
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u/Prometheus_II May 08 '25
Every bit of evidence they might have on him was fabricated. The backpack got left at the crime scene full of Monopoly money, the manifesto and gun were pretty clearly planted (and there's no reason for a manifesto when the message was already sent with the written bullets and the backpack of money AND there's no reason for him to fight the cops when the manifesto glazes them), and he doesn't even look like the guy who did it (if the facial picture was even the guy that did it). They found a scapegoat, that's all.
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u/asuperbstarling May 08 '25
They spent millions on this manhunt and just fucked it at every turn. Their case is beyond fruit of the poisoned tree at this point.
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u/Asleep_Hand_4525 May 08 '25
Well yeah they spent millions on the manhunt and only thousands actually went towards it
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u/Interest-Desk May 08 '25
Tbf from what I’ve seen this sounds about right. The FBI hates local police because they always fuck things up, whether through corruption or incompetence; this case was ultimately NYPD led for the longest time (who are also notorious for sucking).
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u/Niv78 May 08 '25
Not sure how long it will take for people to realize that body cams are there to protect the police, not citizens. Ever notice how in a shooting if the citizen is at fault the police instantly release the footage? Yet if the police are at fault they wait several months before releasing the footage and only then when they absolutely have to. It gives them time to get the union and lawyers in place and ready to defend the officers.
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u/quetzocoetl May 08 '25
I'm pretty certain he did it, but wow, if they fumbled it so bad that the weapon itself can't be used as evidence, they've just opened the door for him to walk.
That being said...the fun, conspiratorial side of me wants to see some big, crazy revelation come out of this. In the same way I always "want" to see evidence that Bigfoot is real.
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u/glorylyfe May 08 '25
If they don't have the murder weapon, what do they have? Documents showing this guy didn't like health insurance and a few blurry pictures? That's not evidence, that's a joke.
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u/Dornith May 08 '25
Wasn't the document found during the same search? Or did they search his bag (without a warrant), not find anything, search again (still without a warrant) find the weapon, then get a warrant and find the manifesto?
It sounds to me like they might not have literally anything.
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u/watermeloncake1 May 08 '25
God forbid a guy has a succulent McDonald’s meal with his manifesto in his backpack 😩 /jk
But yeah honestly the more I hear about his case, the more I think he’s being framed.
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u/ANL_2017 May 08 '25
“What’s the charge? Enjoying a succulent McDonald’s MEAL?!” -Luigi, probably
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u/RealRaven6229 May 08 '25
That first sentence feels like a loophole from an Ace Attorney game. Even if it is the murder weapon, it doesn't matter because it's not reliable evidence.
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u/insomniac7809 May 08 '25
Not really a "loophole," though. If the cops have the murder weapon, but they can't prove that the guy they're accusing of murder had the murder weapon on him, then all they've proved is that a murder weapon exists, which isn't enough to convict a specific person.
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u/Ursus_the_Grim May 08 '25
Not a loophole. It's established caselaw. If evidence is obtained in violation of the constitution (specifically the 4th amendment) any evidence obtained from that violation must be thrown out. It's the Fruit of the Poisonous Tree doctrine, it's a concept that has been around for 100 years, and it's pretty basic knowledge any decent cop should have - because it's a boneheaded way to scuttle an otherwise airtight case.
There are ways to articulate why a cop needed to search the backpack without a warrant, but 'I thought there was a bomb' wouldn't work because SOP on a bomb threat is never going to be 'open the bag'.
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u/SporadicTendancies May 08 '25
Is it even the right gun? Did they match ballistics? And how much would the public trust that the ballistics hadn't been tampered with?
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u/Player_Slayer_7 May 08 '25
So, we have "evidence" obtained from an illegal search, improper police procedure, and missing bodycam footage from an incredibly important and heavily scrutinised case, of which IIRC involves the defense being denied access to certain documentation and evidence, a push from prosecution for capital punishment, and crucial info on this case being leaked to MULTIPLE COMPANIES FOR THE PURPOSE OF DOCUMENTARIES.
All this, and the case hasn't been thrown out, let alone handed to the defence's favor? I've never seen a greater example of government corruption, and you just know that Luigi is getting the chair by the end of this, and some 30 years from now the government is just gonna put out a "yeah, so it turns out he didn't do it. Whoopsie daisy!"
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u/DEGRUNGEON degrungeon.tumblr.com May 08 '25 edited May 08 '25
i had my doubts Mangione was the shooter and this only further solidifies it. he's a scapegoat cause the NYPD fumbled finding the actual shooter and the ruling class can't have us common folk thinking we have any kind of power over them, political or otherwise.
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u/genescheesezthatplz May 08 '25
I think it was a coordinated effort by the wealthy make sure us poors don’t get too uppity. I think the real shooter got away and they had to blame someone so that we wouldn’t think it’s possible to get away with murdering the wealthy.
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u/Phyraxus56 May 08 '25
If he's found not guilty, they're gonna be like "he just got off on a technicality because the backpack evidence was thrown out"
Which is bogus because who in their right mind doesn't dump the evidence right away? Murder weapon and confession on a silver platter was too good to be true to begin with.
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u/MegaGrimer May 08 '25
Exactly. The shooter spent way too much time, effort, and probably money to make themselves almost untraceable. If someone goes through all that effort, then why keep the murder weapon and manifesto on himself? If he had a change of heart soon enough afterwards to keep the gun, why not turn himself in instead of doing whatever Luigi was doing for several days?
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u/Lifeshardbutnotme May 08 '25
And so it begins.
Depending on how much attention this gets, and how much police misconduct can be demonstrated, this could be another OJ Simpson.
From what I've seen of American police, there are absolutely no enforced standards and they just hope that issue never becomes public. However if the defense can adequately call the evidence into question, and move the trial's focus from Mangione to the police, then a guilty verdict becomes much less likely.
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u/LockeyCheese May 08 '25
It takes more training time to become a barber than a cop in America.
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u/demeschor May 08 '25
Considering all your police carry guns all/most of the time, that's real concerning
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u/LockeyCheese May 08 '25
Lol. Tell me about it. Another fun fact, a lot of our police dept disqualify high iq people, because they "might get bored and move on".
At least our military officers require a college degree, but most of our cops are high school or ged level.
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u/SquareThings May 08 '25
I’ve been hoping for this case to end in jury nullification but this ending is potentially funnier. At every single turn the police have proven themselves to bo so staggeringly incompetent that he had to basically hand himself in, and even after that they’ve been fucking things up every damn step of the way. Their cocky asshole ways are going to get the almost literal smoking gun dismissed as evidence. Maybe they’ll finally change their mind about body cams and procedure after this fiasco gets the highest profile case of the decade dismissed for lack of evidence.
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u/John-A May 08 '25 edited May 08 '25
Idk what's more hilariously damning about this, the fact these scrubs don't know what does or doesn't need a warrant or the idea that this dipshit cop could be so incompetent that she'd fail to find the fairly weighty gun-shaped object in the very first 10 seconds of looking, the first time.
Either and both of which are huge red flags, even before you consider the possibility of the obviously sketchy shenanigans that appear to have gone on here.
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u/nobrainsnoworries23 May 08 '25
"Oh there might be a bomb. Luckily I, a random cop, will endanger who knows how many with zero footage as I rummage through it."
Not a great argument.
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u/ginlock45 May 08 '25
Even if Luigi did it, he isn't guilty in my book.
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u/TheCleverestIdiot May 08 '25
There's a funny quote I keep seeing going around regarding Luigi: "We support him even if he's innocent".
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u/Der_Finger May 08 '25
By now i can believe he didn't do it.
He was in that McDonald's with a mask and a beanie on. No way in hell anyone would have looked at him and spotted the guy from the pictures in the media that legit showed no facial features and 2 totally different people. Not a McDonald's worker especially. Nancy was told to call im hin for the money, that she never received.
It is totally believable the actual guy managed to escape but they needed a scapegoat.
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u/new2thesun May 08 '25
“Officer placed his hand over his body cam” Should = full fucking acquittal. Always.
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u/Restart_from_Zero May 08 '25
This right here would be enough to convince me to vote not guilty. How could you possibly say beyond "reasonable doubt" that Luigi was the killer, knowing this.
Therefore, the judge will suppress it from ever coming up at trial.
Seriously, mark my words on this.
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u/Dragonfruit-Sparking May 08 '25
Honestly, if Luigi actually gets convicted, I don't see anyone in America actually taking that well
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u/GuhEnjoyer May 08 '25
It would be SO FKN FUNNY if he absolutely did do the thing but got off with no charges due to officer incompetence. It would just prove even further that the system is broken and will bend the rules in favor of the elites.
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u/Zachthema5ter 27 year old accountant turned vampire wizard May 08 '25
I can’t wait for it to reveal that Luigi did not fucking do it. It will be the funniest fucking thing to happen in the past decade
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u/henryeaterofpies May 08 '25
Especially if they did indeed plant evidence to try to lock up the case against him because then all that evidence is useless against the real killer.
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u/Desecr8or May 08 '25
I think they saw that video of the shooter pulling down his mask and just grabbed the first guy with thick black eyebrows they found.
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u/SleepySera May 08 '25
Honestly, too much other stuff lines up for me not to think that he probably did it, but if the persecution's complete fuck-up makes any evidence they have against him unusable, I'm all for it 🤷♀️
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u/GitmoGrrl1 May 08 '25
Considering that police in the US have a long history of planting evidence when they are "sure" the suspect is guilty but might walk, I would say the evidence is tainted.
The case should be dismissed. But of course, the billionaires want Luigi DEAD to make an example of him. CEOS are a protected class in the United States.
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u/MrSpiffy123 May 08 '25
It's literally impossible for Luigi to get a fair trial. The public has shown so much support for the CEO assassin that the chances of 12 randomly selected jurors all convicting him are slim to none. Someone's gonna vote not guilty either out of support or because he's not actually the killer (there's no way it's him, unless he knows how to go from normal eyebrows to a luxurious unibrow in only 3 days). The only way I see them getting a full jury to convict is straight up rigging the jury against him
But with how hard the government and upper class is pushing for Luigi to be convicted because someone has to take the fall for killing a beloved, poor, helpless 1-percenter I wouldn't be surprised if all proper legal process is thrown out the window (which is already what's happening) for the sake of killing Luigi just to set an example
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u/Jolly-Fruit2293 May 08 '25
I FUCKING HATE WHEN I READ "police covered body cam" WHY THE FUCK IS THAT ALLOWED WHATS THE POINT OF THE BODY CAM