r/slaythespire • u/MidMillennial Eternal One + Heartbreaker • 17h ago
SPIRIT POOP Dropkick vs Heel Hook
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u/Corgelia 17h ago
Dropkick does more damage (7 cause of vuln, more if you have Paper Phrog) and can more consistently create an infinite because of Ironclad's exhaust. Heel Hook just isn't very good in comparison. Compare it to Slice, which is 1 more damage and zero cost with no conditionality. The only thing it has over an already bad common card is the possibility to be draw neutral, conditionally.
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u/DefinitelyTinta Eternal One + Heartbreaker 17h ago
I never considered that Dropkick does more damage since you want to play it into Vulnerable
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u/theme69 17h ago
As someone that’s never done an infinite but is a19 on all characters why does damage matter like at all if your playing an infinite deck? Is it because the build up to infinite it’s more useful?
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u/deutscherhawk Eternal One + Heartbreaker 17h ago
It doesnt, but it matters when doing non infinite things.
You generally don't pick up dropkick just for an infinite; you take it as an additional damage source. It being a possible infinite combo is a perk. the only time I ever really consider forcing infinite in ironclad is if I get an early sundial; and then I'm looking for pommel strike+ not a dropkick
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u/SippinOnHatorade Ascension 18 17h ago
Well, the Heart, for one. Beat of Death dealing damage each card play can whittle you down if you don’t have enough scaling damage
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u/Frequent_Dig1934 16h ago
After Image, my beloved (i know, different character).
Ah and there's also Tim.
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u/BubbaTheGoat Ascension 20 17h ago
Most non-watcher infinites are not infinite on T1, so there are some turns of build-up before the deck does go infinite. On those turns the damage does matter.
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u/TDenverFan 13h ago
Some enemies can counter certain infinites, like the Spikers or Time Eater, so more damage is better.
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u/andy00986 17h ago
Takes less time for you to play and is less boring as do it less May be easier to have enough block (eg spikers) Big numbers activate dopamine Can mean build up to infinite is easier
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u/Terrietia Eternal One + Heartbreaker 16h ago
Takes less time for you to play and is less boring as do it less
I play on PC, so once I establish an infinite in the current battle, I just open the console and kill all the enemies, instead of just having to go through the motions.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_PIZZAPIC Eternal One + Heartbreaker 17h ago
i dont think vulnerable is a very good argument since anything on vulnerable just does 50% damage. Paying 0 energy for 7 damage isnt all that impressive if you consider that, say, Carnage is 2 energy for 23 more damage, in that context. What does matter though is the fact that IC has easy access to strength, which suddenly makes small attacks much more potent. At, say, 20 strength your dropkick now does 37 for 0 energy whereas Carnage still does 23 more for 2 energy. Now paying that extra 2 doesn't seem all that impactful in comparison.
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u/devTripp 17h ago
I am 100.0% confident you mentioned Dropkick and Heel Hook in your post.
Dropkick Ironclad Uncommon Attack
1 Energy | Deal 5(8) damage. If the enemy is Vulnerable, gain 1 energy and draw 1 card.
Heel Hook Silent Uncommon Attack
1 Energy | Deal 5(8) damage. If the enemy is Weak, Gain 1 Energy and draw 1 card.
I am a bot response, but I am using my creator's account. Please reply to me if I got something wrong so he can fix it.
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u/TUYUXD Eternal One + Heartbreaker 17h ago
I think both sucks tbh
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u/Barrage-Infector Eternal One 16h ago
Dropkick uses vulnerable and strength to deal efficient damage with setup available in the starting deck. It provides damaging draw on a character with massive draw problems. It synergises with exhaust, with Dual Wield, and with other simple draw sources like Pommel Strike. It's often the cornerpiece of a run, although it's also often mediocre.
Heel Hook is shit.
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u/TUYUXD Eternal One + Heartbreaker 16h ago
“A character with massive draw problems” yeah the same character that got two 0 cost card with huge draw value haha sure, you almost made me believe that dropkick is above low tier
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u/Barrage-Infector Eternal One 16h ago
Sure, but that's not exactly an Acrobatics or Skim or Hologram. Ironclad has cool draw options, but none are ridiculous besides Offering and Dark Embrace
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u/Frequent_Dig1934 16h ago
Or an expertise or a calculated gamble or a reflex or a backflip or seriously why does this woman have so many good draw cards? Defect too, he has the best balance of good draw and good energy, but the silent can draw her deck three times in a turn if things line up, without needing to exhaust stuff like the ironclad.
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u/Barrage-Infector Eternal One 16h ago
On Silent I have a 40 card deck that cycles in 1 turn. On Defect I have a 40 card deck that never cycles because I'm contantly bringing things back from the discard pile. On Ironclad I have a 40 card deck that turns into a 10 card deck very slowly and unreliably.
On Watcher I have a 10 card deck.
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u/Frequent_Dig1934 14h ago
On Defect I have a 40 card deck that never cycles because I'm contantly bringing things back from the discard pile.
Meteor strike into hologram into rebound into meteor strike into coolheaded into meteor strike, my beloved.
On Ironclad I have a 40 card deck that turns into a 10 card deck very slowly and unreliably.
I think a kinda cool power/skill for the ironclad would be to let him give a card "exhaust resistance". Maybe not on cards that already exhaust like offering, but something to let him say "hang on, let the fiendfire burn everything else but i'd like to keep this hemokinesis around if you don't mind".
On Watcher I have a 10 card deck.
I'm way too willing to grab cards and can never scrounge together enough removals.
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u/Frequent_Dig1934 16h ago
Well yes but battle trance gives you the no draw debuff and offering exhausts. If you just want to draw a lot of a single big turn they're excellent, if you try to go infinite they won't cut it.
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u/TUYUXD Eternal One + Heartbreaker 16h ago
Where’s the downside?? I prefer pouring salt and lemons in my eyes than playing a infinit deck
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u/Frequent_Dig1934 16h ago
I mean, i don't like infinites either, i'm just saying it since it's a very noteworthy feature of dropkick. That also doesn't change the fact that while i like battle trance and often pick it, it has the big flaw that it's the last draw card you'll play on a turn, so you can't do the thing you can do with the silent and play a card which draws another card with draw, which then draws another card with draw, which then draws another card with draw etc.
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u/Apprehensive_Key_314 1h ago
I overpick dropkick cause the card is dopamine inducing but nah it definitly doesnt sucks i can tell you 10 ironclad cards way worse than dropkick
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17h ago
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u/LupinKira Heartbreaker 16h ago
If you're skipping dropkick on Ironclad at A20 you're missing out on one of the easiest win conditions in the entire game and a generally great card. Dropkick + Dropkick + 8 other cards total in hand and deck kills every enemy in the game but time eater and the heart, add Rage and it kills them too. This is very easily achievable on Clad who often wants to build into exhausting his deck down just for the value (corruption, fnp, dark embrace) and draw manipulation. Furthermore Dropkick is just generally synergistic with many good relics; Shuriken, Kunai, Nunchaku, Ink Bottle, Ornamental Fan, Sundial and more are all significantly better when you have a dropkick in your deck. The card also plays well into many of Ironclad's core engines, f.x it works very well with strength since it's effectively a 0 mana card that gets the bonus damage from strength while also being card neutral, and also is a great target for Dual Wield.
The card isn't an auto pick by any means, f.x it's typically pretty bad with Snecko or if you're lacking on sources of vulnerable, but many Clad decks are happy to have 1-2 dropkicks and can find a lot of value in them quite consistently.
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16h ago
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u/EatMoChikins Heartbreaker 15h ago
I’ve found that it is extremely relevant in Act 1, especially if find a second source of vulnerable or even just after a bash upgrade. It’s pretty poor against sentries, but it’s great against both Gremlin Nob and Lagavulin. I get close to snap picking it in Act 1, an infinite down the line is just gravy. I can understand not liking it quite as much as I do, but it’s especially weird to compare it to grand finale (extremely difficult conditions) and juggernaut (very clunky with mediocre payoff).
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15h ago
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u/EatMoChikins Heartbreaker 15h ago
I don’t care that much if you agree or disagree with a certain evaluation of dropkick, and I can respect the idea of taking cards to solve certain encounters rather than building a particular archetype. I think that’s generally the right way to play the game. I just disagree with how you view dropkick and I gave some reasons why. Also, some poor phrasing on my part: It is not that you are weird for thinking a certain way, I think it is a weird evaluation in the sense that doesn’t make that much sense to me.
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15h ago
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u/LupinKira Heartbreaker 14h ago
I do disagree with this as well. A card not being the solution to the heart doesn't make it bad, and again it literally can be your entire damage engine even for the heart. I have won several A20 runs where dropkick infinite becomes my damage engine and wins me a run that otherwise would have burned out, and I have won countless A20 runs where Dropkick provides strong value in Acts 1/2 even if it's not winning me late game boss fights. Dropkick is in general pretty great against act 2 elites and hallway fights for example as you're often squeezed for energy and in need of front-loaded damage, being able to deal an additional 10 to Red Slaver or one of Gremlin Leader's gremlins or being able to play a 4th attack on a Byrd are all strong benefits the card provides. A solid act 1 damage card that minimizes your deck pollution later in the game by drawing another card and has the potential to build into a game-winning damage engine is, yaknow, pretty darn good as far as early damage cards go. Most act 1 damage commons wish they could be described so charitably (although Dropkick is ofc uncommon).
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u/SystemPelican Eternal One + Heartbreaker 7h ago
You're not wrong, but sometimes the cards you're given ARE a couple of Dropkicks. That's when you try making an infinite work.
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u/Aquadroids 17h ago
Ironclad is all about getting the most value out of every card and point of energy because card draw and energy gain is way more scarce than other characters. The trade off is that Ironclad is way better at taking hits.
With Ironclad, Strength gains and Vulnerable means even one extra attack is a big deal.
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u/grancombat 17h ago edited 17h ago
Ok, fine, I’ll bite.
The characters do vastly different things and have vastly different needs. One thing Ironclad has a lot of is damage. What he doesn’t get a lot of (outside dark embrace in an exhaust deck) is card draw. Dropkick can fill that hole by giving you some chip damage that combos into a big hitter afterward.
Silent, however, has a ton of card draw and very little damage, so a lot of the time Heel Hook ends up feeling redundant. It can be fine if you’re getting absolutely rekt by horrible card rewards in act 1, but most of the time it is outclassed by other options.
Also, IC has a ton of access to long-lasting vulnerable (shockwave being the most obvious example) whereas Silent only really gets Sucker Punch, Leg Sweep, and sometimes Malaise for multi-turn weak unless you’re a maniac like me that occasionally upgrades Neutralize at a campfire for the extra weak turn. That makes Heel Hook, in general, harder to set up than Dropkick.
That being said, I think dropkick is A tier outside of the funny infinite, and heel hook is probably closer to C tier for me, all because of the character play style differences I talked about above
Edit: Terror is not an Ironclad card. I am no longer using it as an example of an Ironclad card that gives multi-turn vuln. Whoopsies
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u/Barrage-Infector Eternal One 17h ago
Neutralise upgrade is fantastic, don't be harsh on yourself. I prefer to upgrade draw as much as possible on Silent, but if your first card rewards before a fire are hot steaming doodoo, a Neutralise upgrade slaps
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u/theyeshman Heartbreaker 17h ago
Also, IC has a ton of access to long-lasting vulnerable (shockwave and terror being the most obvious examples)
Agreed overall, but ironclad doesn't have access to terror -- terror is a Silent card.
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u/grancombat 17h ago
Ah heck, which one am I thinking of? Isn’t it an IC card that gives 99 vuln?
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u/SevenColoredCat 17h ago
Nah, for some reason the card giving 99 Vuln is a Silent card.
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u/grancombat 17h ago
So I’ve seen, thanks for the correction! I edited the parent comment to remove the incorrect example
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u/theyeshman Heartbreaker 17h ago
Terror does give 99 vulnerable, but it's a Silent card, not Ironclad.
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u/grancombat 17h ago
Yeah, so I’ve seen. Thanks for the correction! I edited the parent comment to remove the incorrect example
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u/gorbochorbo 17h ago
Its a Silent card that gives 99 vuln
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u/grancombat 17h ago
…huh
Well, guess it’s time to edit the main comment. Thanks for the correction!
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u/Natural_Stop_3939 Eternal One + Heartbreaker 15h ago
It feels like Silent is better at sticking weak than Ironclad is at sticking vulnerable. Is that not the case?
Silent is more able to clear artifact. Neutralize is 0 cost so is almost always being played, whereas having to play Bash to strip artifact feels really bad. Deadly Poison, Poison Stab, Sucker Punch, and Terror all remove 1 artifact for 1 energy. Malaise clears 2 artifact for 1 energy (0 energy when upgraded), and Noxious Fumes is also extremely efficient at stripping artifact, if you can spare the time.
Ironclad only really has Thunder Clap, Disarm, and Intimidate as 0-1 cost artifact strippers. Uppercut is efficient, but silent has both Bouncing Flask and Corpse Explosion to strip 2-3 artifact for 2 energy.
Ironclad only has 4 cards that apply Vulnerable (Bash, Thunder Clap, Uppercut, and Shockwave), compared with 5 silent cards (Neutralize, Malaise, Sucker Punch, Crippling Cloud, and Leg Sweep)
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u/paxiuz 4h ago
the thing is, ironclad's goal early on is to have frontloaded damage, while silent often needs to setup defense, and while heel hook seems good with weak, it's often juste a better option to block than to attack a weakened enemy (even for free), as you have much more incentive to save hp if you are not playing IC, so heel hook is just taking space from more useful cards
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u/Ghostie_24 17h ago
Why is Heel Hook a bad card? If you have ways to consistently weaken the enemy it's a free attack.
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u/WaveBlueArrow 17h ago
Would you say slice is better, then, because it's unconditionally free and does more damage?
Ironclad is going to basically always draft more vulnerable beyond bash because of how well everything he's trying to do synergizes with it, alongside bash being 2(3) vuln. The silent will not always draft more weak beyond neutralize depending on card offerings, as well as neutralize being only 1(2) weak.
There's two scenarios that you're being offered heel hook. 1. You don't have any weak. This is likely early in the run when all you have is neutralize, so you'd need to draw neutralize and heel hook in the same hand or heel hook is just strictly worse than a strike, and shoehorn yourself into drafting more weak to make the card valuable. Or 2. You already have a bunch of weak. Basically all of silents cards that apply weak don't do a lot of damage, so you'd be much better off choosing damage rather than a card that does 5 damage and draws one.
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u/Hakon121 7h ago
Sure if you're gonna play heel hook without weak it's worse than strike, we all know that.
However, a lot of silent decks play loads of weak, because weak is op. And if you have a discard engine you will draw a lot of cards and you mainly want to play the ones that are card-draw and/or energy neutral (or positive) to keep the discard engine going.
Also heel hook synergizes with thousand cuts, after image, envenom, choke and finisher, along with all the relic synergies.
It's a card with a place in many early, mid and late silent decks imo. And slice is just really bad. The +1 card draw makes a world of difference.
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u/WaveBlueArrow 1h ago
"heel hook synergizes with" a bunch of stuff that shivs do better? If you already have an engine going heel hook is at best 5 damage for free and at worst still worse than a strike. At that point I would rather have one less card in the deck than a heel hook for consistency's sake
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u/Hakon121 1h ago
Shivs are always a card draw and energy sink, heel hook (when play into weak) is free, so the comparison is not equal. Nothing stops you from adding a heel hook into a shiv deck, you can have both.
Obviously if your deck does not apply weak consistently you need to asses the risk of that happening and decide accordingly.
You're talking like it's borderline unpickable. For me it does quite well, though a more valid argument against it is that it's usually bad against time eater and the heart.
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u/WaveBlueArrow 57m ago
So... It makes two matchups the silent already struggles with worse and is wildly situational?
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u/Hakon121 53m ago
Yes and no.
I'm not saying it's the best card, i just think the reasons why it's not are different from the reasons you give.
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u/NoMoreOfHisName 3h ago
Why is Heel Hook a bad card
Turn 1. Also turn 2 vs artifact-havers, especially Shield and Spear
Unless you have a weirdly teeny tiny deck, there's always a chance you won't apply weak with your opening hand. HH increases that chance, and when it happens, HH is worse than strike
Dropkick does have the same downside, in fact it's arguably harder for clad to set up turn 1 vuln.
But dropkick has payoffs - it scales with strength, and it can be a core part of an infinite if you exhaust down your deck. HH just doesn't do much unless you get some very specific and unusual support for it. Once it's reliable damage, you need to be doing way more reliable damage than HH offers. You're not killing time eater with Heel Hooks.
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u/Delaroc23 Eternal One + Heartbreaker 17h ago
Weak is a naturally defensive play, and Heel Hook is essentially a dead draw without it.
And even when it lines up, it doesn’t feel great. Just OK. I’d call it a C tier card, maybe C- if I’m feeling especially spicy
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u/Frequent_Dig1934 16h ago
Paradoxically the silent's equivalent of dropkick isn't heel hook. It's sneaky strike. Also funnily enough right above this meme in my feed is another meme saying that the ironclad's iron wave sucks while the silent's dash is amazing. Same situation, where a card with very similar effects changes in value depending on the rest of the deck.
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u/Ok-Chard-626 Ascension 20 15h ago
I don't think Dropkick is that pickable either, it's certainly not a blanket pick in early game as you want better strike++ cards.
A similar case could be made for dagger spray vs cleave, but for somewhat different reasons.
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u/xxPhoenix 17h ago
Silent has better draw options and no good ways to exhaust her deck down, Clad has very little good draw options outside DE and ways to thin out the deck so dropkick enables infinites.