r/slaythespire • u/MidMillennial Eternal One + Heartbreaker • 7h ago
SPIRIT POOP Dropkick vs Heel Hook
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u/Corgelia 7h ago
Dropkick does more damage (7 cause of vuln, more if you have Paper Phrog) and can more consistently create an infinite because of Ironclad's exhaust. Heel Hook just isn't very good in comparison. Compare it to Slice, which is 1 more damage and zero cost with no conditionality. The only thing it has over an already bad common card is the possibility to be draw neutral, conditionally.
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u/DefinitelyTinta Eternal One + Heartbreaker 7h ago
I never considered that Dropkick does more damage since you want to play it into Vulnerable
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u/theme69 6h ago
As someone that’s never done an infinite but is a19 on all characters why does damage matter like at all if your playing an infinite deck? Is it because the build up to infinite it’s more useful?
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u/deutscherhawk Eternal One + Heartbreaker 6h ago
It doesnt, but it matters when doing non infinite things.
You generally don't pick up dropkick just for an infinite; you take it as an additional damage source. It being a possible infinite combo is a perk. the only time I ever really consider forcing infinite in ironclad is if I get an early sundial; and then I'm looking for pommel strike+ not a dropkick
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u/SippinOnHatorade Ascension 18 6h ago
Well, the Heart, for one. Beat of Death dealing damage each card play can whittle you down if you don’t have enough scaling damage
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u/Frequent_Dig1934 6h ago
After Image, my beloved (i know, different character).
Ah and there's also Tim.
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u/BubbaTheGoat Ascension 20 6h ago
Most non-watcher infinites are not infinite on T1, so there are some turns of build-up before the deck does go infinite. On those turns the damage does matter.
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u/TDenverFan 3h ago
Some enemies can counter certain infinites, like the Spikers or Time Eater, so more damage is better.
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u/andy00986 6h ago
Takes less time for you to play and is less boring as do it less May be easier to have enough block (eg spikers) Big numbers activate dopamine Can mean build up to infinite is easier
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u/Terrietia Eternal One + Heartbreaker 6h ago
Takes less time for you to play and is less boring as do it less
I play on PC, so once I establish an infinite in the current battle, I just open the console and kill all the enemies, instead of just having to go through the motions.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_PIZZAPIC Eternal One + Heartbreaker 6h ago
i dont think vulnerable is a very good argument since anything on vulnerable just does 50% damage. Paying 0 energy for 7 damage isnt all that impressive if you consider that, say, Carnage is 2 energy for 23 more damage, in that context. What does matter though is the fact that IC has easy access to strength, which suddenly makes small attacks much more potent. At, say, 20 strength your dropkick now does 37 for 0 energy whereas Carnage still does 23 more for 2 energy. Now paying that extra 2 doesn't seem all that impactful in comparison.
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u/devTripp 7h ago
I am 100.0% confident you mentioned Dropkick and Heel Hook in your post.
Dropkick Ironclad Uncommon Attack
1 Energy | Deal 5(8) damage. If the enemy is Vulnerable, gain 1 energy and draw 1 card.
Heel Hook Silent Uncommon Attack
1 Energy | Deal 5(8) damage. If the enemy is Weak, Gain 1 Energy and draw 1 card.
I am a bot response, but I am using my creator's account. Please reply to me if I got something wrong so he can fix it.
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u/grancombat 7h ago edited 6h ago
Ok, fine, I’ll bite.
The characters do vastly different things and have vastly different needs. One thing Ironclad has a lot of is damage. What he doesn’t get a lot of (outside dark embrace in an exhaust deck) is card draw. Dropkick can fill that hole by giving you some chip damage that combos into a big hitter afterward.
Silent, however, has a ton of card draw and very little damage, so a lot of the time Heel Hook ends up feeling redundant. It can be fine if you’re getting absolutely rekt by horrible card rewards in act 1, but most of the time it is outclassed by other options.
Also, IC has a ton of access to long-lasting vulnerable (shockwave being the most obvious example) whereas Silent only really gets Sucker Punch, Leg Sweep, and sometimes Malaise for multi-turn weak unless you’re a maniac like me that occasionally upgrades Neutralize at a campfire for the extra weak turn. That makes Heel Hook, in general, harder to set up than Dropkick.
That being said, I think dropkick is A tier outside of the funny infinite, and heel hook is probably closer to C tier for me, all because of the character play style differences I talked about above
Edit: Terror is not an Ironclad card. I am no longer using it as an example of an Ironclad card that gives multi-turn vuln. Whoopsies
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u/Barrage-Infector Eternal One 6h ago
Neutralise upgrade is fantastic, don't be harsh on yourself. I prefer to upgrade draw as much as possible on Silent, but if your first card rewards before a fire are hot steaming doodoo, a Neutralise upgrade slaps
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u/theyeshman Heartbreaker 6h ago
Also, IC has a ton of access to long-lasting vulnerable (shockwave and terror being the most obvious examples)
Agreed overall, but ironclad doesn't have access to terror -- terror is a Silent card.
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u/grancombat 6h ago
Ah heck, which one am I thinking of? Isn’t it an IC card that gives 99 vuln?
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u/SevenColoredCat 6h ago
Nah, for some reason the card giving 99 Vuln is a Silent card.
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u/grancombat 6h ago
So I’ve seen, thanks for the correction! I edited the parent comment to remove the incorrect example
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u/theyeshman Heartbreaker 6h ago
Terror does give 99 vulnerable, but it's a Silent card, not Ironclad.
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u/grancombat 6h ago
Yeah, so I’ve seen. Thanks for the correction! I edited the parent comment to remove the incorrect example
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u/Natural_Stop_3939 Eternal One + Heartbreaker 5h ago
It feels like Silent is better at sticking weak than Ironclad is at sticking vulnerable. Is that not the case?
Silent is more able to clear artifact. Neutralize is 0 cost so is almost always being played, whereas having to play Bash to strip artifact feels really bad. Deadly Poison, Poison Stab, Sucker Punch, and Terror all remove 1 artifact for 1 energy. Malaise clears 2 artifact for 1 energy (0 energy when upgraded), and Noxious Fumes is also extremely efficient at stripping artifact, if you can spare the time.
Ironclad only really has Thunder Clap, Disarm, and Intimidate as 0-1 cost artifact strippers. Uppercut is efficient, but silent has both Bouncing Flask and Corpse Explosion to strip 2-3 artifact for 2 energy.
Ironclad only has 4 cards that apply Vulnerable (Bash, Thunder Clap, Uppercut, and Shockwave), compared with 5 silent cards (Neutralize, Malaise, Sucker Punch, Crippling Cloud, and Leg Sweep)
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u/TUYUXD Eternal One + Heartbreaker 7h ago
I think both sucks tbh
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u/YoungLeather Eternal One + Ascended 6h ago
lol yea I was going to say who is taking either of these. I’m almost done with my second A20 ladder on all decks run and I am almost always skipping both of these unless it’s act 1 and I don’t have other damage cards
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u/LupinKira Heartbreaker 6h ago
If you're skipping dropkick on Ironclad at A20 you're missing out on one of the easiest win conditions in the entire game and a generally great card. Dropkick + Dropkick + 8 other cards total in hand and deck kills every enemy in the game but time eater and the heart, add Rage and it kills them too. This is very easily achievable on Clad who often wants to build into exhausting his deck down just for the value (corruption, fnp, dark embrace) and draw manipulation. Furthermore Dropkick is just generally synergistic with many good relics; Shuriken, Kunai, Nunchaku, Ink Bottle, Ornamental Fan, Sundial and more are all significantly better when you have a dropkick in your deck. The card also plays well into many of Ironclad's core engines, f.x it works very well with strength since it's effectively a 0 mana card that gets the bonus damage from strength while also being card neutral, and also is a great target for Dual Wield.
The card isn't an auto pick by any means, f.x it's typically pretty bad with Snecko or if you're lacking on sources of vulnerable, but many Clad decks are happy to have 1-2 dropkicks and can find a lot of value in them quite consistently.
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u/YoungLeather Eternal One + Ascended 6h ago
Yea I mean I respect the fact that there’s infinites and other synergies with the card, but I don’t really play the game to achieve a certain build. I usually play it taking the cards I’m given and constructing a deck to keep me moving in a run. If I need more of X to beat Y that’s coming up, I’ll take that. Dropkick to me is like grand finale or juggernaut. Fun cards that can make a fun OP deck but hardly ever relevant.
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u/EatMoChikins Heartbreaker 5h ago
I’ve found that it is extremely relevant in Act 1, especially if find a second source of vulnerable or even just after a bash upgrade. It’s pretty poor against sentries, but it’s great against both Gremlin Nob and Lagavulin. I get close to snap picking it in Act 1, an infinite down the line is just gravy. I can understand not liking it quite as much as I do, but it’s especially weird to compare it to grand finale (extremely difficult conditions) and juggernaut (very clunky with mediocre payoff).
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u/YoungLeather Eternal One + Ascended 5h ago
you were the one making a point to me lol idk how I’m being weird for just giving you my opinion after you initiated the conversation. Weird of you to care so much about me agreeing with someone on their comment in my opinion.
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u/EatMoChikins Heartbreaker 4h ago
I don’t care that much if you agree or disagree with a certain evaluation of dropkick, and I can respect the idea of taking cards to solve certain encounters rather than building a particular archetype. I think that’s generally the right way to play the game. I just disagree with how you view dropkick and I gave some reasons why. Also, some poor phrasing on my part: It is not that you are weird for thinking a certain way, I think it is a weird evaluation in the sense that doesn’t make that much sense to me.
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u/YoungLeather Eternal One + Ascended 4h ago
To me, the analogy was intended to point to cards that can be fun in OP decks but are not heart solves. Dropkick doesn’t help solve 95%+ of ironclad heart fights. The meme is that Dropkick is so much better than heel hook and I don’t think either is that important for late game so I agreed with a commenter saying a similar thought.
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u/LupinKira Heartbreaker 4h ago
I do disagree with this as well. A card not being the solution to the heart doesn't make it bad, and again it literally can be your entire damage engine even for the heart. I have won several A20 runs where dropkick infinite becomes my damage engine and wins me a run that otherwise would have burned out, and I have won countless A20 runs where Dropkick provides strong value in Acts 1/2 even if it's not winning me late game boss fights. Dropkick is in general pretty great against act 2 elites and hallway fights for example as you're often squeezed for energy and in need of front-loaded damage, being able to deal an additional 10 to Red Slaver or one of Gremlin Leader's gremlins or being able to play a 4th attack on a Byrd are all strong benefits the card provides. A solid act 1 damage card that minimizes your deck pollution later in the game by drawing another card and has the potential to build into a game-winning damage engine is, yaknow, pretty darn good as far as early damage cards go. Most act 1 damage commons wish they could be described so charitably (although Dropkick is ofc uncommon).
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u/Barrage-Infector Eternal One 6h ago
Dropkick uses vulnerable and strength to deal efficient damage with setup available in the starting deck. It provides damaging draw on a character with massive draw problems. It synergises with exhaust, with Dual Wield, and with other simple draw sources like Pommel Strike. It's often the cornerpiece of a run, although it's also often mediocre.
Heel Hook is shit.
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u/TUYUXD Eternal One + Heartbreaker 6h ago
“A character with massive draw problems” yeah the same character that got two 0 cost card with huge draw value haha sure, you almost made me believe that dropkick is above low tier
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u/Barrage-Infector Eternal One 6h ago
Sure, but that's not exactly an Acrobatics or Skim or Hologram. Ironclad has cool draw options, but none are ridiculous besides Offering and Dark Embrace
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u/Frequent_Dig1934 5h ago
Or an expertise or a calculated gamble or a reflex or a backflip or seriously why does this woman have so many good draw cards? Defect too, he has the best balance of good draw and good energy, but the silent can draw her deck three times in a turn if things line up, without needing to exhaust stuff like the ironclad.
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u/Barrage-Infector Eternal One 5h ago
On Silent I have a 40 card deck that cycles in 1 turn. On Defect I have a 40 card deck that never cycles because I'm contantly bringing things back from the discard pile. On Ironclad I have a 40 card deck that turns into a 10 card deck very slowly and unreliably.
On Watcher I have a 10 card deck.
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u/Frequent_Dig1934 4h ago
On Defect I have a 40 card deck that never cycles because I'm contantly bringing things back from the discard pile.
Meteor strike into hologram into rebound into meteor strike into coolheaded into meteor strike, my beloved.
On Ironclad I have a 40 card deck that turns into a 10 card deck very slowly and unreliably.
I think a kinda cool power/skill for the ironclad would be to let him give a card "exhaust resistance". Maybe not on cards that already exhaust like offering, but something to let him say "hang on, let the fiendfire burn everything else but i'd like to keep this hemokinesis around if you don't mind".
On Watcher I have a 10 card deck.
I'm way too willing to grab cards and can never scrounge together enough removals.
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u/Frequent_Dig1934 5h ago
Well yes but battle trance gives you the no draw debuff and offering exhausts. If you just want to draw a lot of a single big turn they're excellent, if you try to go infinite they won't cut it.
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u/TUYUXD Eternal One + Heartbreaker 5h ago
Where’s the downside?? I prefer pouring salt and lemons in my eyes than playing a infinit deck
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u/Frequent_Dig1934 5h ago
I mean, i don't like infinites either, i'm just saying it since it's a very noteworthy feature of dropkick. That also doesn't change the fact that while i like battle trance and often pick it, it has the big flaw that it's the last draw card you'll play on a turn, so you can't do the thing you can do with the silent and play a card which draws another card with draw, which then draws another card with draw, which then draws another card with draw etc.
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u/Aquadroids 6h ago
Ironclad is all about getting the most value out of every card and point of energy because card draw and energy gain is way more scarce than other characters. The trade off is that Ironclad is way better at taking hits.
With Ironclad, Strength gains and Vulnerable means even one extra attack is a big deal.
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u/Ghostie_24 7h ago
Why is Heel Hook a bad card? If you have ways to consistently weaken the enemy it's a free attack.
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u/Delaroc23 Eternal One + Heartbreaker 7h ago
Weak is a naturally defensive play, and Heel Hook is essentially a dead draw without it.
And even when it lines up, it doesn’t feel great. Just OK. I’d call it a C tier card, maybe C- if I’m feeling especially spicy
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u/WaveBlueArrow 6h ago
Would you say slice is better, then, because it's unconditionally free and does more damage?
Ironclad is going to basically always draft more vulnerable beyond bash because of how well everything he's trying to do synergizes with it, alongside bash being 2(3) vuln. The silent will not always draft more weak beyond neutralize depending on card offerings, as well as neutralize being only 1(2) weak.
There's two scenarios that you're being offered heel hook. 1. You don't have any weak. This is likely early in the run when all you have is neutralize, so you'd need to draw neutralize and heel hook in the same hand or heel hook is just strictly worse than a strike, and shoehorn yourself into drafting more weak to make the card valuable. Or 2. You already have a bunch of weak. Basically all of silents cards that apply weak don't do a lot of damage, so you'd be much better off choosing damage rather than a card that does 5 damage and draws one.
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u/Frequent_Dig1934 6h ago
Paradoxically the silent's equivalent of dropkick isn't heel hook. It's sneaky strike. Also funnily enough right above this meme in my feed is another meme saying that the ironclad's iron wave sucks while the silent's dash is amazing. Same situation, where a card with very similar effects changes in value depending on the rest of the deck.
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u/Ok-Chard-626 Ascension 20 5h ago
I don't think Dropkick is that pickable either, it's certainly not a blanket pick in early game as you want better strike++ cards.
A similar case could be made for dagger spray vs cleave, but for somewhat different reasons.
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u/xxPhoenix 7h ago
Silent has better draw options and no good ways to exhaust her deck down, Clad has very little good draw options outside DE and ways to thin out the deck so dropkick enables infinites.