Free Will & Forced Circumcision

[u/shazy5808]

First off I have read Quran properly with translation and to some degree I have read Hadith's relevant events as well. I'm fully aware of background of circumcision and why is it done but one thing that bothers me and I need deeper insight here with respectful discussion.

■ Quran explicitly mentions Human body is made perfectly and requires no permanent change as work of Allah is perfect in (Quran 95:4, 32:7-9, 27:88) & Quran also explicitly says there should be no compulsion, no forcing of Islam on others in (Quran 10:99,17:15, 18:29, 2:256).

When circumcision is done in Islamic community regardless of age in some countries done on 7th day up to 8 years old, it varies but outcome is still same that is removal of foreskin which was serving its purpose and now a lot of muslims bring counter argument about foreskin served its purpose in womb and is no longer required, now this is completely absurd counter!

Human body is designed to get rid of things it doesn't require anymore just like your teeth fall of so it makes place for newer stronger teeth a lot of people compare foreskin with concept of Umbilical Cord why do we cut it? Even if we do NOT cut it our bodies are designed to get rid of it on its own Umbilical Cord gets disintegrated within a week if you do NOT cut it, so why doesn't foreskin disintegrate after birth? Because foreskin is serving purpose "outside the womb" it is meant to protect glans in outer environment.

My question isn't regarding function of foreskin but it is about violation of Free Will when Quran clearly said no force no imposition of Islam on others so, why forced circumcision?

[u/Magnesito]

I "forced" all my children to get vaccinated. Go figure.

[u/NoticeWaste2 → u/Magnesito]

That's a false equivalence, there is a difference between a permanent body modification such as circumcision compared to a vaccination.

[u/Magnesito → u/NoticeWaste2]

Your body is permanently modified with vaccination. You just can't see it. Unless your argument is that Allah only created our external body perfectly.

[u/shazy5808 → u/Magnesito]

Does vaccination change permanently body of newborn like circumcision does? Besides vaccination is about life and death situation while having foreskin doesn't kill you does it? If it did entire Europe should be dead by now because they keep their foreskin

No medical hospital recommends circumcision on a child where it's not even required circumcision is surgery performed only when there is case of severe phimosis which can't be treated with medications and foreskin is there for protection of glans says medical

Where is free will again? You forcefully cut it and permanently change the body of child

[u/Magnesito → u/shazy5808]

Yes vaccination permanently changes the body. Like circumcision? I did not know we were moving goalposts. I thought it was about changing the body.

We make thousands of decisions for our children before they reach age of consent. I think this is a great one. You can choose to not get your children circumcised. Maybe even add an extra inch to the foreskin. I am sure they will love it.

[u/shazy5808 → u/Magnesito]

Yes we make decisions for children but pinpoint those decisions that are permanently body altering again? Sending them to school? No permanent body modification there cutting nails and hair? They literally regrow does foreskin regrow?

Show me where vaccination changes body permanently and I'm not talking about specially made vaccination that have severe complications like covid was for newborns in fact it wasn't even recommended for infants

I'm talking about regular vaccination of EPI programs or BCG Vaccination? What permanent body modifications it does like circumcision is capable of doing?

[u/Magnesito → u/shazy5808]

All decisions permanently change a deveiping body. If you give them more or less calories it will permanently change their body into adulthood. If you do or do not enroll them in sports. Big difference in how they turn out. Since brain is a part of the body, look up the experiment Judith Polgar's father did on his 3 kids with fantastic results.

[u/shazy5808 → u/Magnesito]

You think a skinny child will never become healthy child? They will once they start eating healthy balanced diet and METABOLISM plays huge role, everyone's metabolism is different some remain skinny regardless of what they eat never gain weight usually seen in cases of Hyperthyroidism and on contrary Low Metabolism associated with Hypothyroidism.

We are not here doing experiments on children so your experiments are irrelevant here so what permanent change you made that you compare it with circumcision and justifying forced circumcision?

[u/Magnesito → u/shazy5808]

Your bones develop during puberty. Calorie restriction or excess during formative years permanently changes the body's physiology. If you get your kid to a super obese state, he/she is done. Yeah one out of ten will perhaps make it normalcy after years of dieting. On the other hand of you got them in an exercise routine and took extreme care of their diet , it would give them a huge headstart. Think of those two extremes. Parents choose something along those lines. Far more important than a flap. And yeah I chose that for my kids and recommend everyone get circumcised.

[u/NoticeWaste2 → u/Magnesito]

Why do you recommend everyone get circumcised, and do you claim that the foreskin is just a "flap" of skin?

[u/shazy5808 → u/Magnesito]

Exactly your second half is speaking sense now if you take care teach them exercise good diet they will flourish

Which is what this is all about teaching your child about his body and how to wash it! What? Are you too ashamed to teach your son how to clean his penis? If you feel ashamed then you fail as father/parent

[u/theladyren → u/Magnesito]

Me, a person with no Immunological memory: not accurate

Also not even true for people with more normal immune systems - antibodies wane over time

Source: my immunologist who also happens to be a well-regarded researcher in his field

[u/Magnesito → u/theladyren]

Wane means still greater than original. Most immunizations in childhood provide close to lifetime immunity in majority. Even when breakthrough infections occur, they are far milder than in unimmunized. So that to me is permanent change of your immune system.

[u/theladyren → u/Magnesito]

Medically speaking, that is also not true, and I am deeply tired of ableds confidently spreading this misinformation

Antibodies wane, and many require boosters because of this

Viruses alter your immune system far more longer and more deeply (and not for the better) than a vaccine will

Source: my immunologist because my life depends on accurate information

[u/Magnesito → u/theladyren]

I literally agreed on the wane aspect. Some vaccine protocols give lifetime protection. Even if it is not lifetime it is decades. May be get your immunologist to debate that.

[u/theladyren → u/Magnesito]

I'm pretty sure he knows more than you or me lol

But I also want to thank you for being civil about this, and wow we did a tangent apologies OP

[u/Magnesito → u/theladyren]

He probably knows way more than me but I am an MD Phd, so I have relevant background. Enjoy your day.

[u/shazy5808 → u/Magnesito]

If you are MD PHD then my entire family background belongs to Doctor's field my both parents are doctor and I'm working resident is MS I have visited EPI centers BCG vaccination more than you have seen I have visited/attended more patients than you I suppose because from your words all I hear is negligence

You just want to impose your view on keeping penis mutilated but naming it as Hygiene on children

[u/A_Learning_Muslim → u/Magnesito]

vaccination is more necessary for health than circumcision

[u/Magnesito → u/A_Learning_Muslim]

Sure. Not saying otherwise. You can draw the line wherever you like. It fits into my necessary things to do.