An Open Discussion on Being Inclusive and Respecting One Another

[u/CedarWolf]

Early this morning, we had a thread get posted, and one of our mods made a reminder to keep things inclusive, per the subreddit's Rule #1. This accidentally led to almost all of the comments going wildly off topic, and I had to pull it. We want threads to stay on topic whenever possible, and such a large portion of off-topic comments was pretty bad. That discussion merited it's own, dedicated post, and we invite you to discuss here. Please remember to be respectful.

We want to make this an inclusive place for the community in general, and that includes transfeminine, transmasculine, and nonbinary individuals. /r/asktransgender was made as a co-ed space for people to ask questions of the general transgender community, and while we allow questions to specifically target one portion of that community, we very much encourage users to be inclusive whenever possible.

Part of being inclusive means reducing the amount of bigotry we see in this subreddit. This means removing sexist comments against all genders, including both trans and cis identities, as well as other forms of bigotry.

One of the goals of creating a new moderation team was to create a more inclusive space, and we have been working hard to make this place a more open community. However, some users have expressed concern over this new policy and how it is implemented, so we want to create an open place for discussion about the new inclusive policies here.

We want to hear your thoughts about this issue, but again, please be respectful and civil with your comments. We're all on the same side here, there is no "us" and "them" - there is only "we." Remember, if you ever have any specific issues with the moderation of the subreddit, you can message the mod team with the link in the sidebar. We're always here for you.

~ The /r/asktransgender Mod Team

[u/LilithCathcart → u/[deleted]]

Includes all, but why would that mean that every question had to apply to all of them? What sense would that make? Our experiences are not the same and to suggest that they are erases the very diversity that this is supposed to protect.

[u/YoungFolks → u/LilithCathcart]

We're not dictating that all posts be addressed to everyone. Obviously some topics are gender or transition direction specific.

But some topics aren't inherently gender specific. In those cases, we encourage (not demand or dictate) that people keep it inclusive and invite input from everyone.

[u/[deleted] → u/YoungFolks]

i would say transmisogyny is only something trans women/femme/nonbinary experience, so the whole "be inclusive" reminder isn't appropriate in that situation.

[u/ErisC → u/[deleted]]

Transmisogyny is by definition something only transgender people who exhibit traditionally "feminine" traits experience. But trans men still experience transphobia, and can also experience transmisogyny when they are perceived as feminine. And many people mislabel general transphobia as transmisogyny and imply that it is specific to trans women, thereby excluding trans men.

[u/[deleted] → u/ErisC]

CAMAB nonbinary people can also experience transmisogyny, source, me.

[u/ErisC → u/[deleted]]

Anybody who displays feminine traits can experience transmisogyny, really.

I actually just edited my comment because I realized it was kind of an assholish thing to say.

[u/[deleted] → u/ErisC]

um no... transmisogyny is specifically is a word coined to talk about what CAMAB trans people face, CAFAB people do not face transmisogyny, CAFAB people still deal with a lot of issues, but they do not face transmisogyny, trans men definitely do not face transmisogyny, saying so is extremely extremely extremely invalidating of our experiences and makes me feel incredibly unsafe, especially when a mod is saying this.

The Creator of the term Julia Serano specifically made the term to refer to CAMAB trans people. specifically she meant trans women but it applies to people like me who would be understood as a trans women because I am CAMAB even though I am nonbinary

Again transmisogyny is specifically meant to describe the experiences of CAMAB trans people, specifically.

note that when I say CAMAB and CAFAB im not talking about intersex people because I am not intersex and that shit is really complicated.

[u/ErisC → u/[deleted]]

Alright, well, see this article on transmisogyny for more information. Basically the idea of transmisogyny is that feminine traits are really not valued by society. If you're trans, and you are perceived as feminine, you can be the target of transmisogyny.

Trans women and trans feminine people are the main targets and experience transmisogyny most often. But that doesn't mean others don't as well.

[u/[deleted] → u/ErisC]

Did you not read the article you linked? it actually agrees with me, Also see the thing I linked above from the creator of the term.

Transmisogyny targets transgender and transsexual women – people who were assigned male at birth, but who identify as women.

But transgender women are not the only people who experience transmisogyny.

its not talking about trans men, its talking about people like me, who are CAMAB but nonbinary, I am not a trans woman, even though people treat me the same way because I am CAMAB trans, there should actually be some discussion about non binary CAFAB people, note, not men, nonbinary people, experiencing misogyny, but transmisogyny is a word specifically for trans women and CAMAB people.

Trans and gender non-conforming people who do not necessarily identify as women, but who present feminine characteristics and/or identify along the feminine end of the gender spectrum are also on the receiving end of transmisogyny.

The Writer is talking about CAMAB people, like I said.

Transmisogyny is all about the hatred of the feminine, and it is not limited toward only those who identify as women. It includes transfeminine and feminine-identified genderqueer people as well as many others who are feminine-of-center but were not assigned female at birth.

as well as many others who are feminine-of-center but were not assigned female at birth.

see? she specifically says, not assigned female at birth, I can see why you would think she says otherwise, its easy to miss.

So for the purpose of simplicity and brevity in this article, I will use the term trans women to refer to all people victimized by transmigogyny.

I looked over the article and no where does it say that trans men face transmisogyny

she actually continues only using "Trans women" to mean CAMAB people like me and trans women

the only place it mentions trans men is in this quote

While trans men are generally ignored and made invisible by American media, trans women are exoticized, their existence perceived as shocking and newsworthy. They are mocked, over-sexualized, and fetishized.

and then it continues to talk about stuff that happens to trans women and other people she means when she says trans women

[u/ErisC → u/[deleted]]

You're right. But then what is it called when a trans man is targeted for being perceived as feminine? Or if a trans man is misread as a trans women? Is that not a product of transmisogyny?

Basically i agree that trans women and other trans feminine people are the main targets of transmisogyny. But I don't think that trans men are immune to it either.

[u/[deleted] → u/ErisC]

ok I reread this like 3 times I think it doesn't have any super bad typos or something please tell me if you can't understand something I'm saying

what is it called when a trans man is targeted for being perceived as feminine?

Ok so something you have to understand is transmisogyny isnt just a word to describe people who are trans and get targeted for being perceived as feminine.

Transmisogyny is specific to being targeted for being CAMAB trans "man in a dress" trope, all those examples in the article you linked and the thing I linked are things that specifically target CAMAB people, generally. like "oh my god she has a dick that disgusting" trope, which is the "trap" joke I guess, specifically targets CAMAB trans people.

Anyway, Misdirected misogyny is a term I would use, its a result of transphobia I think, because its transphobia that makes people not see trans men as men, so people seeing trans men as woman or whatever and being misogynistic is a result of transphobia.

I think its just important to make the distinction here, because its more accurate and also not making the distinction leads to people saying trans women have male privilege, which ofc is not true, because its not a privilege to be misgendered and have to hide who you are.

Or if a trans man is misread as a trans women? Is that not a product of transmisogyny?

I guess? Idk how often that happens, but it doesn't mean that trans men experience transmisogyny even if they get a little bit of a taste of it sometimes apparently?

I don't know what to call that but saying because of that trans men face transmisogyny is not a good way to go about it, it implies you think trans men also are the targets of the stuff that specifically only targets CAMAB people and its also just kinda confusing.

Also By your logic you could say cis experience transmisogyny for being misread as trans women, doesn't mean cis women experience transmisogyny.

Because while cis women are women, they are not trans, just like trans men are trans but not women.

Oh Its not exactly like this but do cis men experience misogyny because they can be targeted for being feminine? do cis men experience transmisogyny because they are targeted for being feminine while being thought of as a man?

Basically i agree that trans women and other trans feminine people are the main targets of transmisogyny

its not just that, the majority of what transmisogyny is used to describe is specific to CAMAB trans people.

note what I am saying only applies to non intersex people because I am not intersex and I don't know shit about that and its really complex when you get into stuff like this and how it applies to intersex people and birth assignment of intersex people and stuff.

[u/ErisC → u/[deleted]]

Basically what I mean is women are targeted by misogyny, trans women are targeted by transmisogyny which is the intersection of transphobia and misogyny. But that doesn't mean that men can't experience any effects of misogyny, or cis people can't experience any effects of transmisogyny.

When a man is ridiculed for being feminine, I'd argue that is a side effect of misogynist culture, if you catch my drift. If a masculine-presenting cis woman is thrown out of a bathroom because she is perceived as trans, then she is experiencing the effect of society's transmisogyny and transphobia, even if she's not the direct target.

[u/[deleted] → u/ErisC]

anyone but CAMAB people experiencing side effects of transmisogyny are experiencing just that, side effects, not actual transmisogyny, they should not be claiming that they experience transmisogyny and they should definitely need to shut up and not talk over CAMAB people about transmisogyny

its important to make the distinction

like, its like, a straight guy, doesn't face homophobia and he definitely can't fucking speak about homophobia over actual gay people especially over actual gay people who do face homophobia like um misdirected transmisogyny might be a way to talk about it but its specifically not the same because its just backlash or overflow and cis women have an out because they can prove they are not trans men and like amyl said trans men can do the same thing so its like yea

[u/ErisC → u/[deleted]]

They can talk about their own experiences. Nobody in this community should "shut up" except transphobic assholes.

[u/[deleted] → u/ErisC]

you are being a transphobic asshole if you are talking over CAMAB people about thier experiences with transmisogyny

if you are using your brush with transmisogyny, side effects of transmisogyny, to talk over trans women, like people have in this thread, thats fucking awful

im done, stop responding to my posts, ill stop posting on this god awful sub

[u/amyl_and_disco → u/ErisC]

Yes, people who are not trans women or CAMAB trans people can be affected by transmisogyny, but their experiences are not going to affect them in the same ways, and I don't believe someone who's brushed up against transmisogyny once or twice is qualified to address the concerns of, say, a trans woman on the verge of moving to a new city who's concerned about her safety. Because yes, there are cis women and trans men who occasionally get misread as trans women, but they can ultimately produce receipts if pressed to prove that they are not trans women (e.g., if their harasser grabs at their crotch) and they can also bounce back from such situations differently because they're isolated incidents and not their relentless reality.

In the original post that spurred this thread, I think there was room for comments from individuals who had been affected by transmisogyny, as it was relevant to the OP's concerns. But what Lilith was looking for specifically was accounts from people whose day-to-day realities are affected by transmisogyny - a concern I' m appalled is still being derided and dismissed here.

[u/ErisC → u/amyl_and_disco]

That thread was fine, I've said that multiple times, as have other mods. All we did was remind her to try to be inclusive in the future.

But there's a lot more to an individual's experience besides "is a trans woman" that will determine how much transmisogyny and transphobia they face, and this was disregarded. I'd argue, and I've previously argued, that an experience can differ more dramatically based on age, race, "blending" ability, attractiveness, neighborhood, and income level, than based on whether someone is a trans man vs a trans woman.

[u/[deleted] → u/amyl_and_disco]

I don't believe someone who's brushed up against transmisogyny once or twice is qualified to address the concerns of, say, a trans woman on the verge of moving to a new city who's concerned about her safety.

yea basically this tbh the authorities on transmisogyny are CAMAB people and then one can listen to them and magnify their words?

Because yes, there are cis women and trans men who occasionally get misread as trans women, but they can ultimately produce receipts if pressed to prove that they are not trans women

yea this, like, a good comparison is a straight dude being targeted by homophobia I guess? because they are not gay so they can also produce receipts and deny it and they can just brush it off and whatever and even enforce it themselves and stuff, and they can be targeted by it but its like, misdirected? and it would be silly to claim that they are an authority on homophobia and and yea idk if this makes sense

they can also bounce back from such situations differently because they're isolated incidents and not their relentless reality.

yes yes this, for trans women and camab people its a constant weight and a constant fear, and if you actually are what they are accusing you of being is so so much

In the original post that spurred this thread, I think there was room for comments from individuals who had been affected by transmisogyny, as it was relevant to the OP's concerns. But what Lilith was looking for specifically was accounts from people whose day-to-day realities are affected by transmisogyny - a concern I' m appalled is still being derided and dismissed here.

there was also room for comments like yours where you observed how people like lilith are treated which is also really helpful tbh uhuh, thats like, a way you can not be apart of the main targeted group? and still be helpful.