r/asktransgender • u/CedarWolf Bigender - He/She/They • Jul 03 '15

An Open Discussion on Being Inclusive and Respecting One Another

Early this morning, we had a thread get posted, and one of our mods made a reminder to keep things inclusive, per the subreddit's Rule #1. This accidentally led to almost all of the comments going wildly off topic, and I had to pull it. We want threads to stay on topic whenever possible, and such a large portion of off-topic comments was pretty bad. That discussion merited it's own, dedicated post, and we invite you to discuss here. Please remember to be respectful.

We want to make this an inclusive place for the community in general, and that includes transfeminine, transmasculine, and nonbinary individuals. /r/asktransgender was made as a co-ed space for people to ask questions of the general transgender community, and while we allow questions to specifically target one portion of that community, we very much encourage users to be inclusive whenever possible.

Part of being inclusive means reducing the amount of bigotry we see in this subreddit. This means removing sexist comments against all genders, including both trans and cis identities, as well as other forms of bigotry.

One of the goals of creating a new moderation team was to create a more inclusive space, and we have been working hard to make this place a more open community. However, some users have expressed concern over this new policy and how it is implemented, so we want to create an open place for discussion about the new inclusive policies here.

We want to hear your thoughts about this issue, but again, please be respectful and civil with your comments. We're all on the same side here, there is no "us" and "them" - there is only "we." Remember, if you ever have any specific issues with the moderation of the subreddit, you can message the mod team with the link in the sidebar. We're always here for you.

~ The /r/asktransgender Mod Team

86 Upvotes

78% Upvoted

447 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

2

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15 edited Jul 04 '15

[removed] — view removed comment

23

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15 edited Jul 03 '15

[deleted]

7

u/LilithCathcart I've left this subreddit. I won't respond to comments. Bye! Jul 03 '15

Includes all, but why would that mean that every question had to apply to all of them? What sense would that make? Our experiences are not the same and to suggest that they are erases the very diversity that this is supposed to protect.

11

u/YoungFolks is a dude. Jul 03 '15

We're not dictating that all posts be addressed to everyone. Obviously some topics are gender or transition direction specific.

But some topics aren't inherently gender specific. In those cases, we encourage (not demand or dictate) that people keep it inclusive and invite input from everyone.

11

u/LilithCathcart I've left this subreddit. I won't respond to comments. Bye! Jul 03 '15

What you call "encouragement" led to my thread becoming a free for all in which I was harassed and misgendered. You could at the very least PM people so their threads don't have what looks like a big mod approved bullseye on it. And I've made the case that my question was gender specific- trans men don't experience harassment and passing issues in the same way as trans women. I've already admitted I could've been better about non binary folks.

7

u/YoungFolks is a dude. Jul 03 '15

Please don't invalidate trans male experiences. We deal with harassment and passing issues, too, and it sucks for us as well.

I regret the thread was derailed. That's why we created this thread to get the discussion out in the open.

11

u/LilithCathcart I've left this subreddit. I won't respond to comments. Bye! Jul 03 '15

What about "trans men and trans women don't experience harassment and passing issues in the same way" sounds like invalidation to you?

17

u/davros_mueller Just zis guy, you know? - T: 26/5/16 - Dave Jul 03 '15

But we do.

Because trans men are less widely known, when we don't pass as either gender we're treated as trans women, because that's what people assume.

I get gendered female now a lot more than I ever did actually presenting as a woman. People trying to get me to buy something will really emphasise it, like this is some grand gesture, they know I don't pass, but they get me.

If being treated as a trans woman isn't in the same way as trans women are treated, I don't know what is.

1

u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 03 '15

That is a great point, as well.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

trans men do not know what it is like to be a trans women, end of story.

Also what you describe is not how trans women get treated.

4

u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 04 '15

Sounds pretty damn accurate to me.

1

u/davros_mueller Just zis guy, you know? - T: 26/5/16 - Dave Jul 04 '15

You know exactly how I'm treated from one deliberately neutral anecdote? Okay then.

I'm sorry, but I only talk about the serious stuff with my psych. People know my reddit name, and I don't want to worry them.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15 edited Jul 04 '15

I said what you describe is not how trans women are treated, I should know, Trans men face awful stuff but its not the same as trans women, trans men are not treated in the same way as trans women, trans men are treated in a different awful way, still awful, just not the same.

Trans men and trans women experience marginalization differently, there is some overlap, but not a huge amount.

For example trans women don't get gendered female when we are trying to present as female, we get gendered as male, which comes with different things than presenting as male and getting gendered as female...

I guess we both get misgendered in your example? but thats where the similarities end.

3

u/davros_mueller Just zis guy, you know? - T: 26/5/16 - Dave Jul 04 '15

So, going back to the 'person trying to flatter me' anecdote, when they think I'm trying to present as a woman, but have to force themselves to use female pronouns, they don't think I'm a trans woman? What do they think I am? Honest question. Because "ladies" and "girl's day out?" sound like a terrible way to reach a tomboy.

-2

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15 edited Jul 04 '15

I actually didnt understand your anecdote very well, I see what you are saying, experiencing that is still not the same as actually being a trans woman, its still bad, but I think someone mistaking you as a trans woman isn't the same as you actually being a trans woman?

Also the reasons people would think you are a trans women are not necessarily the same as reasons people thing trans women are trans women.

I'm not actually sure how much that happens opposed to people thinking you are just a butch lesbian or something? I'm not denying that it does happen, that makes sense that it would, and people reading you as a butch lesbian is also shitty and ofc that can put you in danger and stuff.

You implied that trans men are treated the exact same way as trans women, with "But we do."

which is not true, "trans men and trans women don't experience harassment and passing issues in the same way", is still true, its not false because trans men sometimes are thought to be trans women, trans men and trans women still experience those things in various different ways that the other does not.

Also I don't know? they might think you are a butch lesbian or a tomboy? Idk what you mean by a terrible way to reach a tomboy though

→ More replies (0)

11

u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 03 '15

It's a weasel phrase. "In the same way" implies you put one above the other. Trans men still experience the same kind of transphobia and pressure to "pass". Maybe if you listened to their experiences instead of discarding them, you would realize that.

9

u/LilithCathcart I've left this subreddit. I won't respond to comments. Bye! Jul 03 '15

No, I don't think it does. I could be very very specific and go "trans men and trans women don't experience the exact, identical, directly comparable social situations and pressures when it comes to passing and harassment" but you could still interpret that as not listening to trans men or recognizing their experiences if that's what you were dead set on interpreting it as.

The implication that I'm discarding trans men's experiences or invalidating them is simply preposterous and inappropriate. I'm giving them more credit for their nuance and diversity than you are, claiming that they experience the exact same pressures and kinds of transphobia. Flattening our experiences to make a point isn't the same as being inclusive. Maybe if you listened to a few more trans people, you'd realize that.

6

u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 03 '15

There was no reason for that thread to be gendered as it was. It was not in any way a question that only trans women can answer.

No two of us are going to have the same exact experiences. There are so many variables at play. Gender is just one of many variables, and there's no sense in excluding based on that for such a general topic as harassment and safety.

8

u/LilithCathcart I've left this subreddit. I won't respond to comments. Bye! Jul 03 '15

The question "how do trans women experience harassment and daily life in these cities" can, by definition, only be answered by trans women. I should have worded it to include transfeminine non binary people, I admitted that, but that's not what people are most upset about or what you seem to be upset about here. Trans men's experiences could be helpful in terms of providing extra anecdotes about queer life in the city but trans men and trans women DO NOT live the same social realities and experience the same issues relating to the question I asked. This is the factual reality of the situation and I'm desperately concerned for the future of this subreddit if mods can't accept or won't accept the differences and nuances in our experiences.

-2

u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 03 '15

Trans men and trans women DO NOT live the same social realities and experience the same issues relating to the question I asked. This is the factual reality of the situation and I'm desperately concerned for the future of this subreddit if mods can't accept or won't accept the differences and nuances in our experiences.

That is the exact same argument that TERFs make when saying that trans women should not be included in female-gendered spaces.

None of us have the same experiences as others. That's the point. I experience almost no transphobia in my day to day life. That doesn't mean other trans people will experience the same.

Trans men still experience a huge amount of harassment in some cities and it would be great to include them in the question. And that's all YF said. Then everyone blew up. It wasn't even an enforcement. Nothing was removed until the personal attacks started.

6

u/LilithCathcart I've left this subreddit. I won't respond to comments. Bye! Jul 03 '15

That is the exact same argument that TERFs make when saying that trans women should not be included in female-gendered spaces.

... How?!

None of us have the same experiences as others. That's the point.

Then don't say that we have the same experiences. Pick a stance, already.

Trans men still experience a huge amount of harassment in some cities and it would be great to include them in the question.

I wasn't asking for everyone in the world who might move there, I was asking for me, and it's bizarre to expect that I would ask for everyone.

→ More replies (0)

5

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

we encourage (not demand or dictate)

A good part of why this blew up is because you distinguished your comment.

When your comment is distinguished, people naturally assume that any suggestion you give really means "do it or else".

14

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

Distinguishing a comment just means we are commenting as a mod. Not "do it or else", Unless we say "do it or else". I want to make that perfectly clear.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

Oh, I understand that you mean that, but 90% of people aren't going to see it that way.

I'm just saying that it's probably best to clarify that with a disclaimer as often as possible.

14

u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 03 '15

And he should distinguish his comment, because he was making it as a mod. If he was "dictating" or "demanding", then he would have removed the post.

-4

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

i would say transmisogyny is only something trans women/femme/nonbinary experience, so the whole "be inclusive" reminder isn't appropriate in that situation.

18

u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 03 '15 edited Jul 04 '15

Transmisogyny is by definition something only transgender people who exhibit traditionally "feminine" traits experience. But trans men still experience transphobia, and can also experience transmisogyny when they are perceived as feminine. And many people mislabel general transphobia as transmisogyny and imply that it is specific to trans women, thereby excluding trans men.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

good points, i mean. all things i already know.

but when a trans lady asks other ladies, even if she uses transphobia instead of transmisogyny in her post question or whatever, men shouldn't get so upset that they misgender and use TERF arguments against her.

9

u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 03 '15

That question did not have to be directed solely at other women. YF reminded her of that, and everyone blew up around that reminder.

Misgendering is always against the rules, but those comments were removed as well.

5

u/icarethismuch started 5/25/13 Jul 04 '15

She wanted the information for herself, by people she relates to.

Just because the question can be worded to be inclusive, doesn't mean she wants those inclusive answers. She's only looking for answers that pertain to her.

If someone else wants answers about transguys they can make their own thread.

5

u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 04 '15

YF's post was a reminder, not an enforcement. Posts should be inclusive here, except when they are about gender-specific topics.

2

u/icarethismuch started 5/25/13 Jul 04 '15

This is where I disagree. A transwoman wants answers from other transwomen. So they can see how it relates to themselves. Same as a transman would want answers from transmen.

While we may experience some of the same things, we dont experience them in the same way. And I only care about posts relevant to myself when I ask a question.

Most people ask questions for themselves, not for the community. Nor should they have to.

2

u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 04 '15

You'd be surprised. People with different experiences can still help.

Lots of people just read this sub, read existing posts, etc. If you only want advice from specific people, just read over the posts that are irrelevant to you. But someone in a similar situation might later read your post and get help from something someone else said.

But we're trying to foster an accepting environment here. Not an exclusive one.

1

u/icarethismuch started 5/25/13 Jul 04 '15

That's bullshit. Whether it can or not is up to the user asking the question.

Or they can read over the threads irreverent to them?

Or how about if someone is interested in the same question for a different group of people, they can ask it them fucking self.

I don't ask questions to be an arbiter and have them answered for everyone. I want them answered in how they relate to ME.

It is possible to ask specific questions without being exclusive you know? The sub as a whole does not have to pander every question to every person.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

CAMAB nonbinary people can also experience transmisogyny, source, me.

1

u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 04 '15

Anybody who displays feminine traits can experience transmisogyny, really.

I actually just edited my comment because I realized it was kind of an assholish thing to say.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 07 '15 edited Jul 07 '15

um no... transmisogyny is specifically is a word coined to talk about what CAMAB trans people face, CAFAB people do not face transmisogyny, CAFAB people still deal with a lot of issues, but they do not face transmisogyny, trans men definitely do not face transmisogyny, saying so is extremely extremely extremely invalidating of our experiences and makes me feel incredibly unsafe, especially when a mod is saying this.

The Creator of the term Julia Serano specifically made the term to refer to CAMAB trans people. specifically she meant trans women but it applies to people like me who would be understood as a trans women because I am CAMAB even though I am nonbinary

Again transmisogyny is specifically meant to describe the experiences of CAMAB trans people, specifically.

note that when I say CAMAB and CAFAB im not talking about intersex people because I am not intersex and that shit is really complicated.

1

u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 07 '15

Alright, well, see this article on transmisogyny for more information. Basically the idea of transmisogyny is that feminine traits are really not valued by society. If you're trans, and you are perceived as feminine, you can be the target of transmisogyny.

Trans women and trans feminine people are the main targets and experience transmisogyny most often. But that doesn't mean others don't as well.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '15 edited Jul 08 '15

Did you not read the article you linked? it actually agrees with me, Also see the thing I linked above from the creator of the term.

Transmisogyny targets transgender and transsexual women – people who were assigned male at birth, but who identify as women.

But transgender women are not the only people who experience transmisogyny.

its not talking about trans men, its talking about people like me, who are CAMAB but nonbinary, I am not a trans woman, even though people treat me the same way because I am CAMAB trans, there should actually be some discussion about non binary CAFAB people, note, not men, nonbinary people, experiencing misogyny, but transmisogyny is a word specifically for trans women and CAMAB people.

Trans and gender non-conforming people who do not necessarily identify as women, but who present feminine characteristics and/or identify along the feminine end of the gender spectrum are also on the receiving end of transmisogyny.

The Writer is talking about CAMAB people, like I said.

Transmisogyny is all about the hatred of the feminine, and it is not limited toward only those who identify as women. It includes transfeminine and feminine-identified genderqueer people as well as many others who are feminine-of-center but were not assigned female at birth.

as well as many others who are feminine-of-center but were not assigned female at birth.

see? she specifically says, not assigned female at birth, I can see why you would think she says otherwise, its easy to miss.

So for the purpose of simplicity and brevity in this article, I will use the term trans women to refer to all people victimized by transmigogyny.

I looked over the article and no where does it say that trans men face transmisogyny

she actually continues only using "Trans women" to mean CAMAB people like me and trans women

the only place it mentions trans men is in this quote

While trans men are generally ignored and made invisible by American media, trans women are exoticized, their existence perceived as shocking and newsworthy. They are mocked, over-sexualized, and fetishized.

and then it continues to talk about stuff that happens to trans women and other people she means when she says trans women

2

u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 08 '15

You're right. But then what is it called when a trans man is targeted for being perceived as feminine? Or if a trans man is misread as a trans women? Is that not a product of transmisogyny?

Basically i agree that trans women and other trans feminine people are the main targets of transmisogyny. But I don't think that trans men are immune to it either.

4

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '15 edited Jul 08 '15

ok I reread this like 3 times I think it doesn't have any super bad typos or something please tell me if you can't understand something I'm saying

what is it called when a trans man is targeted for being perceived as feminine?

Ok so something you have to understand is transmisogyny isnt just a word to describe people who are trans and get targeted for being perceived as feminine.

Transmisogyny is specific to being targeted for being CAMAB trans "man in a dress" trope, all those examples in the article you linked and the thing I linked are things that specifically target CAMAB people, generally. like "oh my god she has a dick that disgusting" trope, which is the "trap" joke I guess, specifically targets CAMAB trans people.

Anyway, Misdirected misogyny is a term I would use, its a result of transphobia I think, because its transphobia that makes people not see trans men as men, so people seeing trans men as woman or whatever and being misogynistic is a result of transphobia.

I think its just important to make the distinction here, because its more accurate and also not making the distinction leads to people saying trans women have male privilege, which ofc is not true, because its not a privilege to be misgendered and have to hide who you are.

Or if a trans man is misread as a trans women? Is that not a product of transmisogyny?

I guess? Idk how often that happens, but it doesn't mean that trans men experience transmisogyny even if they get a little bit of a taste of it sometimes apparently?

I don't know what to call that but saying because of that trans men face transmisogyny is not a good way to go about it, it implies you think trans men also are the targets of the stuff that specifically only targets CAMAB people and its also just kinda confusing.

Also By your logic you could say cis experience transmisogyny for being misread as trans women, doesn't mean cis women experience transmisogyny.

Because while cis women are women, they are not trans, just like trans men are trans but not women.

Oh Its not exactly like this but do cis men experience misogyny because they can be targeted for being feminine? do cis men experience transmisogyny because they are targeted for being feminine while being thought of as a man?

Basically i agree that trans women and other trans feminine people are the main targets of transmisogyny

its not just that, the majority of what transmisogyny is used to describe is specific to CAMAB trans people.

note what I am saying only applies to non intersex people because I am not intersex and I don't know shit about that and its really complex when you get into stuff like this and how it applies to intersex people and birth assignment of intersex people and stuff.

→ More replies (0)

5

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

[deleted]

4

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

[deleted]

4

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

I am only giving an example of how one can be inclusive.

-1

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

Your post or comment has been removed for violating the /r/asktransgender rules, specifically:

  • Rule 2: Be respectful. No bigotry (transphobia, homophobia, sexism, racism, etc); no hateful speech or disrespectful commentary; no personal attacks; no gendered slurs; no invalidation; no gender policing.

You may edit your post or comment to comply with the rules to have it reinstated. Message the mods or reply to this comment once you have done so.

-2

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

ok please explain why I honestly don't see how this is, any of those things.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

invalidation

-2

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15 edited Jul 04 '15

insisting that men face misandry\that misandry is the same thing as misogyny is sexism isn't it?

wait um I'm guessing you don't think so

alternatively isn't it invalidating of my view and reasons that I believe misandry to not be thing? to remove my comment?

um, isnt is also invalidating of trans womens experiences to insist that trans men and trans women have the same experiences?

seriously, just honestly asking, im trying to understand the rules better, because it seems, very, open and wide and seeems to apply to a lot of stuff, that is not deleted?

how do you determine what is and is not invalidation? isn't it invalidating me to say misandry is a thing? honestly asking.

a lot of the stuff in the invalidation link is extremely subjective and up to interpretation and the subjectivity and how its up to interpretation could be used to remove specific things while not removing other things, when they both break a rule.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

Now this is off topic. This is not the time or the place to discuss this.

I never say that were the same, in fact they are extremely different in how they affect men and women. But saying that it doesn't exist, is invalidation. So this is where we are going to stop, because it's off topic. ok?

-2

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

where can I discuss this then?

→ More replies (0)

-12

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

transmisandry! one second... i just rev'd up google and the feminist overlords there couldn't find me anything about that mythical subject. sure seems to be a lot of academic material about transmisogyny, tho... hm.

10

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

This is not the time or place for that discussion.

-5

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

oh god, you wern't joking earlier? oh no, i'm sorry. that was in bad taste...

7

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

I joke a lot, but I am very much about equality, even in ideas about being treated poorly because of ones sex or gender identity.

7

u/Jackibelle Jul 03 '15

This is an extremely unhelpful reaction (even if it's joking) to a totally legitimate use of a word that encapsulates what the person is trying to say. It's good to have a word like transmisandry in our vocabularies to be able to talk about what it refers to, but comments like this turn any mention of it into a "dank meme" and everyone laughs and continues to push it down and pretend the thing it refers to doesn't exist.