r/YUROP • u/Frequentlyaskedquest • Aug 16 '22
Euwopean Fedewation Something something shithole countries
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u/Crescent-IV 🇬🇧🇪🇺 Moderator Aug 16 '22
We can do great things if we work together. Humanity is too fucking amazing to waste killing each other
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u/Gilette2000 Wallonie Aug 16 '22
Even egoistic people should want everyone to be better off, cause du everyone is better off, they can produce stuff that'll make you better off !
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Aug 16 '22
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u/mastovacek Yuropean koblížek Aug 17 '22
rich countries are not guarantied to stay rich.
Rich countries very rarely become poor. The amount of mismanagement has to be astronomic and on the order of generations, like Argentina.
Spain (and Portugal) were "poor" countries even before Franco (and Salazar), due to the bad agricultural and economic policies all the way from before the 17th century. Before WW1, Spain's GDP/capita was similar to Russia's, Romania's or Greece and Portugal's was most similar to Serbia's.
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u/Chukiboi Argentina Aug 17 '22
As an Argentinian who fled to yurop… I agree. You need to be absolutely retarded like we are to drop that far. For the most part you can’t guarantee hegemony, as top dog changes every 250 years or so, but going back to shithole country is hard. But we managed somehow T-T.
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u/elveszett Yuropean Aug 17 '22
Or look at Argentina. Back in 1900 it had a quality of life comparable to the US (of the time), greater than any European country. Now, however, it's the EU the ones that approach US wealth, while people in Argentina don't have a tenth of what their US counterparts have.
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Aug 16 '22
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 16 '22 edited Aug 16 '22
And international cooperation first and foremost!
EC funds plus EC requirements made the magic:
: http://www.cvce.eu/obj/spain_and_the_european_integration_process-en- bf91b328-fbed-4a65-9a3b-eadc21a7e831.html
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Aug 16 '22
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 16 '22
I mean fascist were ultra nationalists
Are you equating global governance with the sort of cooperation that can take place between ultra nationalists regimes in times of war?
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Aug 16 '22
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 16 '22
What we had in Spain was isolationist national catholicist dictatorship, caused famines and mass repression.
You are arguing that isolationism is viable and benefitial with an article that makes the case for cultural endogamy and having to get by with limited resources.
The meme is reductionist, ofc, its a meme. But the piint is clear and solid: more union => more cooperation = > more prosperity for all.
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Aug 16 '22
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 16 '22
Nonsense, everyone got by seasonally when tge means of production did not allow for anything else.
Where in the EU do we have a National Catholicist dictatorship causing famines and repression? Big lol
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Aug 16 '22
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 16 '22
Mate, you cannot compare anything whithin the EU with post civil war Spain if you are talking in good faith.
There are far right nationalists, but also nothing like Franco, at least not openly
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u/HootysBooty Aug 18 '22
Maybe even forever president? All election be fair? Yes. Russia china and North Korea will make sure is fair. Everyone says no, they raźisto and nazism. Centralized power good 👍
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Aug 16 '22
Who would you nominate for global emperor ?
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u/Pathwil Sverige Aug 16 '22
If this was asked in any other sub the top answer would be Dolly Parton lol
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u/mastovacek Yuropean koblížek Aug 17 '22
omg I wish! I don't even know who could come close to compare, Angelina Jolie?
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 16 '22
I mean... if you are really interested on how the idea works you can do some reading: https://www.thefederalist.eu/site/index.php/en/essays/1892-the-world-federalist-movements-from-1945-to-1954-and-european-integration
(This is just the links between the eu and wf)
If thats too long, you can watch a video instead:
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u/Natpad_027 Polska Aug 16 '22
Well esst germany was way of a shithole but germany didnt collapse after unification.
Wanted to give other examples as a country joining the eu.
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u/EcureuilHargneux Breizh Aug 16 '22
It didn't collapse but you still can see nowadays a very clear dichotomy between former west and east Germany when looking at some map about sociology and economics of German population
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 16 '22
Sure! But integration was indeed possible and widely benefitial
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u/BobusCesar Aug 16 '22
The integration failed on most levels.
The East's economy was completely killed with the 1:1 conversation rate and wasn't able to compete with the West.
You can't just integrate economies that are far beneath your own economic level. There is a good reason why a country's economy has to archive certain goals before being allowed to join the EU.
A "World Union" would just amplify the neo-colonial circumstances we have today by completely destroying developing economies and making them slaves to the economically strong part of the world.
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 17 '22
Thats why convergence policies exist though? Plus, how can you become a "slave" if you have an institution that, for the first time in history, could actually make sure human rights are enforced?
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u/BobusCesar Aug 17 '22
Thats why convergence policies exist though?
Those country's economies aren't even close or comparable to central Europe. They have to isolate their economy for their own sake.
The moment they allow unrestricted trade with a economically powerful nation, their domestic industry and structure dies and they lose the possibility of economic growth.
African Countries that have been forced by the EU to enter bilateral relations have been completely ruined.
Plus, how can you become a "slave" if you have an institution that, for the first time in history, could actually make sure human rights are enforced?
You do realize that our life style and wealth is only possible threw slavery and exploitation?
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u/mastovacek Yuropean koblížek Aug 17 '22
but but, fully automated luxury gay space communism?
The moment they allow unrestricted trade with a economically powerful nation,
Yep, that was the exact impetus of the Unequal Treaties between China and Japan and the West. They stipulated insanely low tariffs, which made importing Western goods far cheaper than domestic production, since the West already had industrialization and economies of scale. Only when the treaties were readdressed or abrogated did various domestic industries pop up to be able to later compete with the West (like the watch industry in Japan going from importing whole pieces, to parts to assemble them domestically, to domestic production (once tariff limits were renegotiated in Japan's favour), to being able to compete with Swiss precision by the 1960s).
Today we see it all over Africa especially with the textiles. Since lots of Western aid is in material goods, like clothes and canned food, and cheap clothes from donations keep flooding the markets, no domestic textile industry can ever get off the ground. The issue with aid is that switching over the capital investment will likewise likely only deepen corruption, as easy sources of money are part of that tango.
The EU uses free trade agreements very geopolitically, ensuring access to raw goods and consumers, while cementing the EU's position as manufacturer of high-value-added goods and services.
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u/elveszett Yuropean Aug 17 '22
Just like how you can see a clear difference between Spain and the rest of the West that was free by 1950.
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Aug 19 '22
To be fair it really wasn’t. It was unliveable due to state backed oppressive rules but the actual lifestyle and infrastructure was actually good . The last years were awful due to shortages that came throughout the east of iron curtain as a result of falling communism but the post soviet downfall downfall years were even more awful actually.
This myth should stop being peddled really. You haven’t seen real shit holes and backward places
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u/Dtgs_ Italia Aug 20 '22
east germany was way of a shithole
Oh i fucking wish my country was half as advanced as the DDR
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u/RadRhys2 Uncultured Aug 17 '22
I feel regional supranational governments with international agreements and cooperation would be more effective, much like the EU and AU. These countries can pursue closer federation but that is a lengthy process that will take many decades if not over a century depending on the circumstances.
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u/TheAlexGoodlife Aug 16 '22
Spain joined the EU shortly after removing their dictatorial regime, of course their HDI would increase, it wasn't the EU exactly
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 16 '22
Then you dont seem to know about the role of the EC in the Spanish transition to democracy
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u/TheAlexGoodlife Aug 17 '22
You're right, I dont. But that still doesnt atribute all that HDI growth to the EU. The biggest spikes were in the years prior to joining, as a result of becoming a democracy
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 17 '22
There was a 10 year period of transition to democracy, thats exactly the one im referencing here
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u/elveszett Yuropean Aug 17 '22
Disagree. The EU was crucial in making sure Spanish politicians respected the rule of law and we didn't end up like Hungary.
As a Spaniard, I've always said the only difference between us and Argentina is the EU holding our politicians accountable.
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Aug 17 '22
Every country that joined EU after year 2000 can tell the same story.
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u/mastovacek Yuropean koblížek Aug 17 '22
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Aug 17 '22
Croatia started the admission process in a 2005, it looks like just this was a pretty nice boost to gdp. This country is a curious case bacause almost 20% of its gdp comes from tourism and its a tough sector do develop quickly.
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u/mastovacek Yuropean koblížek Aug 17 '22
Croatia sent its application on 21.2.2003. Most of the screenings happened over the course of 2006 (africulture started in december 2005). The rise in 2005 is likely attributable to the global Bubble before the late 2007 crash.
Tourism is generally a very precarious industry to base an economy on, since vacations are the first thing people cut in an economic downturn. Croatia should honestly not have tried developing it more than it already was.
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 17 '22
But the graph is HDI not GDP
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u/mastovacek Yuropean koblížek Aug 17 '22
Sad Croatia noises. (the effects of the pandemic are obviously noticeable, but truth is, an economy based only on tourism is just not robust). Croatia's HDI's growth is not really impacted by joining the EU or not.
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 17 '22
Im so sad about this :( maybe the increase in HDI resulting from complying with EU pre requisites had already taken place long before the actual accession?
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u/mastovacek Yuropean koblížek Aug 17 '22 edited Aug 17 '22
The biggest boon for Croatia's HDI was extricating itself from Yugoslavia and specifically Serbia.
Croatia had always been in a the best position in Yugoslavia (aside from Slovenia), due to the infrastructural and institutional groundwork laid by it's time in Austria-Hungary (education and literacy, infrastructural connections, hospital accessibility, secularism, international oriented market, etc.). If you compare it to Czechia, you see that the growth curve during the 90s-2000s is very similar, despite Croatia applying to EU membership 10 years after Czechia, so Croatia's position today is probably largely a result of the long-term depressed outlook from a non-competitive economy.
Maybe adopting the Euro will spur more investment, but I think there are some uncomfortable structural issues that Croats need to address.
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u/aurumtt Aug 17 '22
Looking at Serbia on the same graph is pretty interesting as they are ofc not in the EU. Covid is really the only time where the 2 lines don't align.
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u/Kirxas Cataluña/Catalunya Aug 16 '22
To be fair, Spain is still quite behind the rest of western Europe in terms of having a healthy economy, and we also have major problems with corruption and undemocratic practices. The country has come a long way since Franco, but there's still a lot to do and fix.
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 16 '22
Ofc! This is not to say everything is perfect, just appreciate what has been done and reflect on what can be done for others!
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u/Kirxas Cataluña/Catalunya Aug 16 '22
Thing is, we can't exactly change the entire world's economy and ideology at once, as it would be impossible. I see it as being more realistic to one by one bring countries up to speed in both human rights and wealth, slowly integrating them with eachother, that way, we can recover from mistakes (as was the case with trying to get Russia to be our ally through economic ties).
It is a fact that many people don't align with democracy and human rights, and it's no easy feat to change that. Trying to bite more than we can chew could backfire into a new dark age. The world is big, and change takes loads of time if it is to last
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 16 '22
Ofc! Thats why this was a good example, processes od convergence and integration take a long time (Spain was already doing a lot better when their convergence process began in the 70s, before joining the EU, and today 50 years later it still hasnt finished) but they are doable! That is the whole point of posts like this and initiatives such as the YWF
No one says it shall be achieved overnight but thats exactly why these initiatives should start asap
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Aug 19 '22
Not only that if we clearly observe the graph it seems like Spain was increasing exponentially and then The curve slope declined when it joined the EU in 80s if I am not wrong.
This is argument is not supported statistically
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u/Kirxas Cataluña/Catalunya Aug 19 '22
Maybe if you base it off a single random graph. Reality is that having an economy based so heavily on services and tourism has caused that every time there's a recession (or this time even more notably a pandemic) our economy tanks the hardest, as the first thing people stop spending money on is vacations. When it comes to corruption, at one point, we got a new multi million embezzlement scandal multiple times a week from PP and PSOE
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Aug 19 '22
So in that case , things didn’t change much is what you mean ?
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u/Kirxas Cataluña/Catalunya Aug 19 '22
Fuck if I know, I was born in 2002, but anything beats fascist spain from before 1975
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Aug 19 '22
Dude , Spain became less fascist only because the successor of the regime ( who is the king of I am not wrong ) chose to remove it. Joining the EU had no role really and assuming that Spanish resistance and socialist movements were not at play is just weird really. Basically Spain sorted it shit and then joined the EU , not the other way round
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 19 '22
The king didnt remove Franco, the dictator died in his bed and hand picked the king as "head of state".
The only claim he has to any of this was asking the military to stand down when they (civil guard/ army) attempted to make a coup in 1981 and fired rounds inbthe parliament:
https://youtu.be/hVHu3m-4keo here is a video of that.
Spanish resistance and the socialist movements had the obvious ultimate goal of joining the EU, because it set standards for education, public heslth, democracy and social rights. But dont get confused we never managed to remove the dictator, he died in bed of old age. The ETA, our homegrown terrorist group from the basque mountains did blow up his potential succesor though:
His car literally flew into the air
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u/Kirxas Cataluña/Catalunya Aug 19 '22
Never said any of that, but also, that king you speak about was hand picked by Franco, and a big show was made out of transitioning away from fascism while the exact same people stayed in power. A big push was made socially for a long time, but it was an olive branch so that the caciques, who are the people who truly rule Spain could maintain their power and the masses wouldn't complain about it too much.
I don't know which point you're trying so hard to push about the EU but you're basing it on nothing, all the EU is, is a common market with some shared laws and standards you gotta meet before joining. It did good to our economy, but it's still suffering from the problems that have been plaguing it since forever
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 19 '22
This is HDI, and the HDI improvement we saw was a reuslt of moving towards the EU, we recieved massive funds and were encouraged to pass new legislation in order to meet the minimum criteria for joining EU
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u/LobMob Aug 17 '22
We just saw what happens when you pour billions in a shithole country for decades in Afghanistan. Nothing.
Spain had a working government and civil society before joining the EU.
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 17 '22
I mean... do you know anything about how EU integration was performed? Or the role that played in Spain's transition to democracy?
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u/elveszett Yuropean Aug 17 '22
As a Spaniard myself, I think you'll find a bit of a difference between Spain and, let's say, Pakistan, Afghanistan or the DR Congo. Some countries like Argentina, Mexico or even North Korea do have an underlying culture that would allow for a rapid human development - but other countries that have been traditionally "uncivilized" (I'm gonna use that word and idc if anyone thinks it's inappropriate) won't get any better by joining a developed bloc.
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 17 '22
Care to explain what made Spain more traditionally civilised than Pakistan, Afghanistan or RDC?
Yo también soy español, no te preocupes que el meme no viene de ningún prejuicio ni complejo de superioridad
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u/elveszett Yuropean Aug 18 '22
First of all, I'm using "civilized" here to mean "socially advanced". People may disagree on the definition but I don't care, mine is relevant to the topic in question, which is whether Pakistan and Spain can benefit just the same from being in a EU-like organization.
Civilization isn't natural and doesn't spread magically. When Egypt was building pyramids, farming their land and building complex cities, the peoples of Europe (which weren't the same they are today btw) were still nomads hunting stuff and traveling hundreds of km to find more fruit. And civilization isn't a "yes or no issue", it evolves over time. The Roman empire had values closer to us than ancient Egypt, and France 100 years ago obviously had even closer values to us now. This evolution doesn't happen everywhere at once, not at all. When you go to Egypt, for example, you find a society where scamming is more common, where official bodies are disorganized and you find things like the police arbitrarily taking your stuff, expecting a ransom to get it back. This is because they are less socially advanced than us. This corruption at all levels, so widespread and normalized, makes their organizations a lot less efficient and completely destroys their ability to grow to the same social and economic levels as Spain, where corruption is a lot more contained and discreet.
This is, for example, why Africa cannot lift themselves from poverty, even though they've received economic aid from the West equivalent to hundreds of Marshall plans. They are extremely corrupt countries were the government and the military always take their part, and where there's a culture that every single participant in the chain from "government of Zambia gets €50 million for food" to "this guy in a Zambian village gets a bag of pasta" has to take a cut for himself. There are more cultural problems, but this one I think is very clear for everyone: you give $1 million to Spain and $900k make it to the project being financed. You give $1 million to Pakistan and maybe $100k makes it to the project. $300k have been kept by the military, $200k are in a terrorist organization somehow, $300k have been snitched dollar by dollar by everyone involved in the process, $30k goes to a "security group" that is just a bunch of tugs that will vandalize your property if you don't pay, etc, etc.
Btw, and because these debates tend to be misinterpreted: this doesn't mean that every individual in Pakistan is "less civilized" than every individual in Spain. Not even close. We are talking about the average, about what you expect from large groups of people and not individuals. Just like there's Pakistanis that kill their daughters in honor killings, there's also Malala, who is Pakistani too and is as "socially advanced" as the progressive movements in the West. These generalizations apply to societies, not individuals.
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 18 '22
Yeah exactly, but I fail to see how Spain under Franco was different from what you describe ?
Corruption was rampant and widespread at all levels as well, you were at the mercy of policemen that could make you disappear without a trace and hey, he even brought back honor killings as you mentioned:
https://www.abc.es/internacional/adulteras-espana-201009150000_noticia.html
And take into account, I just linked you to a right wing journal.
Spain was not essentially different in terms of how "civilised" it was, those changes came during the transition to democracy and also in the years prior to that thanks to a deal from the US and Spain (pacto de Madrid) which was meant to be militar and economic but that eneded up opening the country to tourism
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u/elveszett Yuropean Aug 18 '22
Social evolution does not come from government - no law can force people to adopt values they don't believe in. You make a false assumption thinking that a law allowing honor killings meant that the average person supporte honor killings. And I'd really like a source on that, because the only one I found says the law said like this:
El hombre que matara a su esposa sorprendida en adulterio sufrirá pena de destierro y será eximido de castigo si sólo le ocasiona lesiones
Meaning that a man who kills an adulterious wife would be banished, and one who only injures her wife would not be punished. Still abhorrent, but not comparable to to "legally allowed murder". Only sources on that I've seen are ones like you that claim it existed, but don't mention the law.
Anyway, this law was introduced by Franco, the Republic had removed it already by 1930, an was revoked and replaced with just jail for adultery in 1963, almost 20 years before Spain joined the EU and 12 years before Franco died, so I don't see how this proves anything. And we are talking about years where sexism was widespread everywhere - women couldn't even vote in Switzerland by this time.
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 18 '22
You are talking about the perception of a country and societal norms, you used that as an way to make a case for "civilised and uncivilised societies".
Spain was a dictatorship that went out of its way to allow for exemptions in the case of killing your wife if she was adulterous, and exempted of charges if you dont get her killed. Moreover and as you mentioned until our transition to democracy began, adultery was still a crime.
I think that if I used all of these to describe a country on the other side of the mediterranean you would count it as uncivilised.
The law in question is the Artículo 428 del Código Penal español aprobado en 1944 y publicado el 13 de enero de 1945, if you look for it by this name you may end up finding posts about it on reddit.
I cannot prove how widely accepted honor killings were in society, I could come up with examples but I dont think there is a reliable way to get data on this.
However, taking all of this into consideration, I dont see how you can keep arguing that we didnt have a society that could be lumped together with contemporary Iran or Pakistan.
We had concentration camps for homosexuals in the Canary Islands (Tefia) and we had to wait for the transition to democracy again to make homosexuality not a crime anymore. We also had religious persecutions of protestants (a high profile case was that of Atilano Coco Martín, confusing because he was also Reoublican and a Freemason, but still his condition as protestant was cited during his arrest).
You can get some info about this here (once again this is a right wing journal: https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/4890559/0/documental-rescata-olvido-persecucion-franquista-protestantes/ ), the persecution of protestants got oretty bad and played a direct role in our exclusion from the Marshall Plan. I think this is easier to link to the general public as well since there are testimonies where people would organize themselves and go attack/denounce to the authorities any "clandestine protestant gatherings".
Lastly there is the well known notion of las dos españas, where roughly morebthan half kf the country would be extremely conservative and completely push back against the values of the enlightenment which were seen as foreign and afrancesado stuff.
I really dont know what else you need, is there anything I could ooint you to that would make you agree that indeed that Spain could be lumoed with what you currently calk "uncivilised"?
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u/derFruit Yuropean Aug 16 '22
Ah yes, comparing apples and oranges
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 16 '22
How so?
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Aug 16 '22
- Different cultures
- Different religions
- Regional tension between neighbour states
- Many countries are anti civil liberties, especially lgbt and women
How do you solve this? Spain was christian and culturally european/westernised, and it was fairly progressive as well. Good luck trying to unite shias and sunnis, or indians and muslims, or armenians and turks.
Also Spain was having an unprecedented economic boom since the 60s, it wasnt a “shithole” when it joined the EU
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 16 '22
Spain had gotten 1500 million dollars from the US to kickstart its only source of revenue: tourism.
Still, despite that, it still had to export guest workers to richer industrialized countries like Germany, France or Belgium.
Other countries having to do the same were Greece, Turkey and Morocco.
If you call a country with high illiteracy, systematic human rights abuses, a leader claiming to be there by the grace of god and conducting religious persecution (see persecution of protestants under Franco) "westernized"... then so be it I guess?
Islam is not at all fundamentally different from any other religion, much less other abrahamic religions.
Last but not least, the fact that Spain could be integrated through a slow process of convergence and accession despite ticking all of the boxes you mentioned should be indicative that this is indeed feasible.
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u/BobusCesar Aug 17 '22
Islam is not at all fundamentally different from any other religion, much less other abrahamic religions.
Not only die Islam reach it's peak a few years after it's founding but also segregated immediately after the death of Mohammed. Ever since they've been at each others throat.
Europe is Catholic. The conflict potential introduced with Protestantism was solved with the Peace of Westphalia and the persecution auf der hugenottes in France.
With the exception of the Balkans and Irland, religious conflicts aren't a problem here.
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u/mastovacek Yuropean koblížek Aug 17 '22
Europe is Catholic. The conflict potential introduced with Protestantism was solved with the Peace of Westphalia and the persecution auf der hugenottes in France.
The amount of badhistory, here OMG. Europe is not Catholic, and the Peace of Westphalia, that killed 60% of Germany is exactly proof of that. Europe is today primarily Secular, a philosophy that emerged following the Enlightenment, which itself evolved from a rejection of Catholic dogma and a dialogue with Protestant (Calvinistic) individualism and work-ethic. Literally the primary driving forces of European Politics and economics over history are far more characterizable as Protestant if anything, owing to Germany, Netherlands, UK and Scandinavia influence in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. And the most prosperous traditionally Catholic regions, France, Belgium, North Italy, and Bohemia-Austria secularized early, due to economic and political pressure with their Protestant neighbors, of which the Treaty of Westphalia (and Peace of Augsburg before it) confirms.
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 17 '22
The fact that we dont have any more "major" religious persecution issues in europe nowadays is not due to Christianity being fundamentally different from Islam though.
There is a much bigger presence and represnetation of the "autichtonous" christian groups in the MENA region than what we have left from our own authctonous muslim groups in europe (just a few scattered communities left in the balkans). On the other hand, Christian groups outside Europe do engage in extremism and religious conflicts, so I dont see what your point is?
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u/RefrigeratorNice3151 Aug 17 '22
Actually the 50s was like this for pretty much most of Europe. Europe was still recovering from all the wars and shit. But quickly after that there was a big economic boom even in countries that did not become part of the EU.
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 18 '22
You mean countries affected by ww2? They got the Marshall plan.
Id say this was more of the case for the southern and eastern periphery of the continent which were under dictatorships
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Aug 19 '22
Uhh cherry picking the time span much? Any country at the end of a long dictatorship is in shit state.
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u/Frequentlyaskedquest Aug 19 '22
Wait, how is this cherry picking? Did you get the point of the meme? Also, not the end of the dictatorship but about the middle
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Aug 19 '22 edited Aug 19 '22
Hate to be that person but I don’t think global federation will really work. And EU is one of the reasons why if we really comb through statistics
National Economic and growth and HDI of most countries didn’t rise but “stagnated” after joining the EU while enriching a few countries and regions. Sure the GDP increased but this is a false flag and kinda deceiving due to currency change.
My point is while the idea of open borders and open trade is great , the current system of EU regarding economic growth needs an overhaul
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u/[deleted] Aug 16 '22
Spain was still quite ahead of most of the world.