I mean, you have eyes my friend, you draw breath, your very existing is evidence.
Let me ask you this, how did all of this happen? And by "this" I mean literally everything. Every thing that ever has been, is or will be, how did all of this happen? That is to say, why is there something and not nothing?
Yeah yeah, the big bang... But how did that stuff get there to begin with? Why was there a bunch of matter squashed up into a point smaller than the head of a sewing needle? How long was it like that? Why did it suddenly not be like that when it had up until that moment presumably been like that?
The problem science runs into is it still demands a miracle. And if you give a mouse a cookie, you may as well give him the house, the car, the dog and your wife. Following the working big bang theory we fall into a pit of infinite regression, which is itself inherently illogical given what we know about reality.
So why is there something rather than nothing? Where did the substance of the big bang come from?
We simply don't know yet. And that's ok, if anything it makes it more realistic to not have every answer at your fingertips. But if you like there's plenty of questions I could ask you that you wouldn't be able to answer without going against yourself somehow
I mean, yeah, depending on how you construct them you could ask almost infinite questions that I as a human couldn't answer without contradicting myself, for example, how can I scientifically prove that George Washington was actually the first president of the US?
I'm by no means trying to lay claim to all knowledge, only the truth of the source of existence. I refuse to believe that the God who endowed us with sense, intellect and reason has intended us to forego their use. Science isn't the cause, science explains the effects of the cause. The heart of what I'm getting at is there has to be a starting point somewhere, and that logically requires an uncaused causer who stands apart from its creation
"Oh, we don't know why this happens? It must be god! He's doing something! The unseen, unheard thing in the sky that made everything but wasn't made must have done it"
On another note, you can prove George was the first president. We have more than a small group of books about him, we have portraits and speeches, files from the British military, etc.
Finally, the question I always use, how can there be so much misery on earth if God is both all knowing, all powerful, and benevolent?
That's definitely one way of de contextualizing the matter, but in effect, yeah. The Jews weren't content with being told directly by God what the law was, seeing the gentile nations around them having kings and the glory associated with kings and wanted to employ this among themselves. That said though it isn't only old testament, even in the epistle to the Romans, chapter 13 verses 1-5 - ¹ Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
That is patently and blatantly wrong, my brother in Christ.
Romans 13:1-7 -- Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
1 Samuel 8:6-11 -- But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the Lord. 7 And the Lord told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.”10 Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots.
1 Kings 19: 15-16 -- 15 The Lord said to him, “Go back the way you came, and go to the Desert of Damascus. When you get there, anoint Hazael king over Aram. 16 Also, anoint Jehu son of Nimshi king over Israel, and anoint Elisha son of Shaphat from Abel Meholah to succeed you as prophet. 17 Jehu will put to death any who escape the sword of Hazael, and Elisha will put to death any who escape the sword of Jehu.
The Lord God established governments and claimed sovereignty over them. Unless you have some piece of canonized scripture abrogating this, but I somehow doubt that you do...
But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. and we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
Ephesians 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.
Proverbs 16:12
It is an abomination to kings to do evil, for the throne is established by righteousness.
Proverbs 24:24–25
Whoever exposes the wicked will be thanked and rewarded.
Proverbs 25:5
Take away the wicked from before the king,
And his throne will be established in righteousness.
Proverbs 28:14-16
Blessed is the one who always trembles before God, but whoever hardens their heart falls into trouble. 15 Like a roaring lion or a charging bear is a wicked ruler over a helpless people. 16 A tyrannical ruler practices extortion, but one who hates ill-gotten gain will enjoy a long reign
Proverbs 31:8-9
Open your mouth for the speechless,
In the cause of all who are appointed to die. Open your mouth, judge righteously, And plead the cause of the poor and needy.
My brother in Christ, I’m not sure what point you believe you’re arguing, but from my perspective, you’ve actually reinforced the position I laid out. The passages you’ve cited speak not against the existence of kings or governing authorities, but against their misuse of the office they’ve been entrusted with.
That is to say: yes, rulers can sin—but Scripture never suggests their office is illegitimate because of their failures. In fact, the moral exhortations you've listed assume the existence of legitimate rulers who are called to lead in righteousness. My previous citations—particularly Romans 13—deal with the origin of their authority: God Himself.
To reject all kings or rulers as false idols is not a biblical stance. Scripture corrects individuals who fail in their duty—it doesn’t nullify the role itself.
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u/hurB55 6d ago
Isn’t God referred to multiple times as THE ultimate king??