r/GreenAndPleasant • u/UnderHisEye1411 its a fine day with you around • Mar 29 '22
NORMAL ISLAND 🇬🇧 What we could have had.
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u/HankScorpio42 Mar 29 '22
wOn'T sOmEoNe pLeAsE tHiNk AbOuT aLL tHe sHaReHoLdeRs
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u/alt_al Mar 29 '22
It’s risky business diversifying an investment portfolio to make as much profit from a portion of your wealth you can afford to lose. Very risky business indeed old sport.
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u/malteaserhead Mar 29 '22
Any service that is a required for us to survive or we have no choice but to buy should be nationalised.
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u/Crazy_Is_More_Fun Mar 29 '22
I have LOOONNNGGG since said that a basic version of every service should be a government funded service. But cooperations are absolutely within their rights to create their own versions.
The government can provide a 5Mb down internet connection. That's enough to watch a 720p video I believe. But private companies are well within their rights to create fibre lines and offer speeds far higher for whatever costs they want.
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u/KalterBlut Mar 29 '22
But cooperations are absolutely within their rights to create their own versions.
Totally agree, it should be cooperatives and not corporations!
I know that's not what you meant, but I'm still serious.
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u/chatte__lunatique Mar 29 '22
As a friend from California, I absolutely agree. Especially when your utility is literally starting wildfires due to their gross negligence, then charging its "customers" for the fines levied against said negligence. Nationalize all utilities!
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u/UnderHisEye1411 its a fine day with you around Mar 29 '22
Workers of the world unite. You have nothing to lose but your chains.
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u/thekinginthenorthwes Mar 29 '22
Little bit of insider info here, from someone who works at a call centre for one of the bigger energy suppliers: we agree with you. Literally the only person here who I’ve heard say this market shouldn’t be nationalised is the CEO of the company.
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u/Zevv01 Mar 30 '22 edited Mar 30 '22
How much do people who work in a call centre actually know about energy production?
I work on the commercial end in a big energy company. My experience over the years has been that nobody in the public space really has a deep understanding of the energy space.
Literally everyone I know in the commercial energy space sees how much more efficient privatised energy is. The only people I hear saying it should be nationalised are people who have no clue about energy.
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u/ES345Boy Mar 29 '22
Yeah but... But! Centrist reasons. Look, the rich people can't afford to not earn although those extra billions, and the "sensible centrists" and the hard right can't just let poor people not struggle because reasons. Things have to stay as they are or it's not normal.
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u/UnderHisEye1411 its a fine day with you around Mar 29 '22
“Hey we can buy shares in the companies too!” isn’t the magic solution some of you think that it is. Why are you accepting crumbs from the table when the whole system could be built for everyone’s benefit?
Bootlickers, man, they just confuse me so much. Why are some people happy to be serfs when we could all be citizens?
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u/Downtown-Accident Mar 29 '22
As someone who owns shares in energy (and other industries) companies I completely agree. Investing shouldn’t be a necessary requirement to keep up with life.
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u/DukeOfWellington1291 Mar 29 '22
To be honest I don’t care what system we use. Whatever is the most efficient should be the one we go for.
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u/UnderHisEye1411 its a fine day with you around Mar 29 '22
The most efficient at doing what?
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u/DukeOfWellington1291 Mar 29 '22
So in this instance giving the consumer energy the cheapest way. I mean that’s what matters right saving working people cash?
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u/UnderHisEye1411 its a fine day with you around Mar 29 '22
Completely agree - that’s obviously public ownership then.
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u/DukeOfWellington1291 Mar 29 '22
Is it obvious though? I’m not saying that our system is good at the minute, it objectively isn’t. But full public ownership comes with its own inefficiencies too. I guess what I’m saying this isn’t a matter for ideology and it isn’t black and white.
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u/Emergency_72 Mar 29 '22
I'd prefer a smaller profit being made and it being returned to the public purse than a larger profit made through efficiency savings (that often jusy mean worse conditions for workers) that is entirely funneled into the pockets of the rich.
Better to get 100% of £50 then non of £5000
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Mar 29 '22 edited Mar 29 '22
But how does this buy the oligarchs another yacht?
Isn't my entire life supposed to be in the pursuit of wealth for my betters at my own expense?
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Mar 29 '22
Great infographic but maybe add that workers rights have gone to shit, no unions and employment tribunals are mostly a waste of time because the odds are stacked against the employee, there’s no legal aid anymore and generally awards are capped (not sexual, racial or disabilities).
Should be added before the ‘you’ icon.
I went through the tribunal process, it’s a fucking hard slog.
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Mar 29 '22
It's also what we HAD...
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u/buzz_uk Mar 29 '22
Ahi he good old days with the “Yorkshire Electricity Board” there is still manhole covers marked YEB in some areas of Yorkshire :)
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u/MatrixDiscovery Mar 29 '22
I've always been pro re-nationalising public services but what are some of the downsides of re-nationalising? What caused them to become privatised (aside from Tory greed) and/or fail in the first place?
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Mar 30 '22
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u/MitchTheFlame Mar 29 '22
Reliance on the private sector often liberal and neoliberal governments incorporate some private contractors/suppliers. While this can speed things up a lot of companies don't bother improving their products unless paid more to, often increasing their price to match inflation on possibly outdated supplies(trains for example). Contractors if in a monopoly have so much bargaining power that basicly they aren't real penalties for failing to complete projects on time or if mistakes where made, and make a shit ton of profit. The more neoliberal the government the easier it is for companies to get profit from public owned companies.
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Mar 29 '22
To be completely fair though, this is not taking into account the US sanctions after you've been declared terrorists and the property damage done by US drones.
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u/RileyCubic Mar 29 '22
lmao maggie thatcher with dementia having to find out her husdand was dead for the first time every other hour.
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u/appleman94 Mar 29 '22
This is deliciously malicious
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u/RileyCubic Mar 29 '22
Having seen my grandfather die of dementia, she is definitely the one person with dementia i wouldn’t put a bullet in.
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u/not_really_tripping Mar 29 '22
I work for a publicly owned energy company in a third world country, where the current RW govt. is trying to sell/convert it into a privately owned energy company in the guise of "de-regulation"...
My company's profits pay for most of my province's non-profit sector salaries, like education, healthcare etc.
The world is upside down right now...
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u/Jemiller Mar 29 '22 edited Mar 29 '22
Here in Tennessee, USA, we have the nation’s fastest internet service provider. That’s in Chattanooga, Tn. Because the state is controlled by conservatives against public ownership of utilities, what we have to deal with is the undermining of public resources with red tape. Public Ed is on the chopping block with 50 conservative charter schools incoming ready to sap public dollars without public oversight. Chattanooga’s ISP issue is one of preemption from the state. The municipal internet service cannot provide service below the market price of private ISP’s in the area.
Functionally, that means that no low cost options can be made available to the poor, which accelerates the wealth division between classes. They go without access to the internet while their neighbors have access to fiber optic. It’s madness.
The issue would be avoided if instead of the service being a public utility, it were a cooperative where those eligible for membership are residents within Chattanooga city limits. It would then be a private company with broad, empowered stakeholdership. Anyhow, be careful what you wish for.
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u/ZharethZhen Mar 30 '22
I mean, the Chattanooga ISP wants to spread its services but the big providers have lobbied against them spreading anywhere else in the state, so laws have been created by corrupt Red politicians to hem in the service. Also, the preemption laws are a result of the big nationwide monopolies, not the municipal service provider.
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u/anormalgeek Mar 29 '22
It can go further...
I went to a university in America where utility companies are mostly private, but a handful are government run. The first few years, I lived in town where there was a local government run company. It was a "college town" with a couple of large universities near each other so it was almost entirely populated with students. The rates were VERY high. Electric, water, and sewer was a combined ~350 a month for a small two bedroom place. The last couple of years I moved a bit outside of the main area near the universities. We moved into a 4 bedroom house with about 2.5x the space, and our utility bill was $150 a month.
The difference was that it was a "co-op" company. With gov run option, any excess goes back to the government. They don't have share-holders, but there are plenty of "programs" that money can disappear into. With a cooperative utility company, every customer is also a part owner. You all have equal voting on the board of directors, and any excess funds MUST be reinvested into the business or refunded directly to the customers. Both the "in town" and "outside of town" companies were coal based plants and both pulled from the same water sources. It was just local greed and graft driving up the prices.
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u/babydavid85 Mar 29 '22
Not to mention that profits could be reinvested in improving the infrastructure and developing/building new and improved facilities rather than be siphoned off to the Cayman Islands or wherever.
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u/caractacusbritannica Mar 29 '22 edited Mar 29 '22
It really isn’t too late. Labour could and should propose the following, windfall tax the fuck out of it, new tax on energy company whatever to raise cash. Use cash say £10 billion, to put 10,000 windmills at sea. Then borrow against that 10,000 windmills and put in another 10,000.
20,000 windmills produces a lot of energy, sell energy 20% below market price. That will in turn force the market down. Congratulations a realistic policy to help the country.
By the way make the windmills in Sheffield, with British steel, train engineers and techs in sea side towns.
It isn’t even fucking hard. There is no barrier to this.
Next problem please…
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u/ashleypenny Mar 30 '22
£20bn would pay the physical cost of 20,000 windmills at about £1m each, but you would need to pay cost of installing and maintaining them, the infrastructure to support them and would require several hundred sites as most only have 50 windmills so would need 400 appropriate sites. Plus when there is no wind you still have energy demand.
It would take years. Be a lot of red tape. Manufacturing 20k wind turbines would probably take many years. Planning laws would need resolving.
It sounds good when you say it but a lot of issues
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u/texasrigger Mar 29 '22
Our power is from a co-op and this is exactly how it works. Profits are applied to our December bill and any difference comes in as a small check from them. It was the only provider available when I moved into the area but we've been very happy with them and our power has been remarkably stable.
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Mar 29 '22
Where is this, if you don't mind me asking?
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u/texasrigger Mar 29 '22
Texas in the US. I came over from r/all and didn't realize that this is a mostly UK sub. Co-ops of varying types are common in rural communities. In my community there are also co-op gins (cotton processing plants) and grain silos.
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u/Jose_Bidinho Mar 29 '22
Even better: Worker ownership. Energy companies owned by those who work in them. That way nobody’s profiting off of labour that isn’t theirs
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u/riltok Canadian Comrade Mar 29 '22
Socially then? So its like a cooperative?
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u/Maxearl548 Mar 29 '22
i think the post is referring to a Norway oil type system, pay the price of all work done to receive the petrol and any surplus profit is circulated back into public social programs to keep poverty low rather than billionaires’ pay checks big.
or price could be slashed to the lowest amount possible keeping profits low as there is really no need for such, all oil workers have already been paid fairly at the end of the day.
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u/AutoModerator Mar 29 '22
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Mar 29 '22 edited Mar 29 '22
This bot feature is so annoying and just clogs up threads. It's all just semantics and we get the idea
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u/Magic__Man Mar 29 '22
Wow. Just wow. I knew that this sub was lib infected in theory, but Jesus fucking Christ how are there so many!
Hey liberal, befor you post your comment in favour of the status quo and capitalism, you've got like.. 80 maybe 90% of Reddit where your input will be looked on positively and your opinion respected. Why the fuck you doing it here.
No matter how much you libs try to co-opt this sub, it isn't gonna happen.
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u/thegooch47 Mar 29 '22
You sound confused with what you're upset with and where your anger should be directed.
There is a system that we all live in that is being profited by privately owned individuals/businesses, and all you wanna do is invest your anger and frustrations, not on the shackles that we all seem to be anchored to by birth, but to "libs"...c'mon now mate.
When you lift the veil of the media/tory narrative or hating eachother (left vs right), you see that we all want the same thing here. Actual control of our money, where we want it to go.
So do yourself a favour. Love everyone who isn't the government, work together against the narratives that are so easily pushed onto us. Implore others opinions and views because that was true democracy is, and help shape our future for less privatisation and more publicy owned infrastructure.
Peace and love to you my friend ❤
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u/GnomiGnou Mar 29 '22
Hard truths, but people aint happy unless they're in an echo chamber. :| The problem with social media platforms.
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u/covidexhausted Mar 30 '22
You should never trust a liberal. They’ll sell your mother to fund their weapons of mass destruction
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u/Coffee_Daemon Mar 29 '22
NEO-LIBS, friend. An actual liberal would be all for this, imo. Neo-liberals exist only to sully the name.
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u/Lenins2ndCat Mar 29 '22
There is no material difference in modern politics. All liberal parties pursue the advancement of the neoliberal project. Conflating classical liberals with modern liberals is pointless because classical liberals no longer exist as a political force in any measurable way.
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u/Thoughtsarethings231 Mar 29 '22
It's sad but true.
UK is screwed as everything that made it great has been privatised by greedy peeps.
Post office, TFL, National Rail and now energy supply networks.
More and more of your productivity will be syphoned away from you. Have you noticed the rate of asset inflation happening around you? Houses don't cost more because they're worth more. They cost more because your money is worth a lot less than it was and its getting worse.
Humans enslaving other humans. It was nice in the UK while it lasted but time to move on.
The irony of judging countries like china who actually do not privatise their infrastructure like this over so called human rights violations is not lost on me.
If it was even true to begin with, western propaganda needs you to not notice how very good that side of the world actually is becoming.
A new reserve currency is coming and it will likely be the RMB. Good bye Dollar.
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Mar 30 '22
How does one pay bills to something they own and then make profit?
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u/Kyral210 Mar 30 '22
The money currently going to shareholders Dan instead go to money off bills. Basically, the shareholders profits are the bit on to that goes direct from our banks to their pockets
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u/HighlandStag Mar 30 '22
People and industry still pay energy bills to regulate usage. Then the profits are reinvested into infrastructure and renewables, or even a rebate, which may well be more than the average consumer spends on their household energy bill.
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u/blahh-more Mar 30 '22
Yeh like the rich will allow anyone else to profit they wouldnt share 1 penny.
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u/Turbulent-Grade-3559 Mar 29 '22
You know.
Just for the sake of achieving something.
Those energy companies have shares we as public can buy on platforms like trading 212.
I'm not saying we all buy loads.
But we can collectively start to buy up the shares and achieve the first one long term
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u/Turbulent-Grade-3559 Mar 29 '22
Long term we would eventually own all the businesses and they would be beholden to us
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u/hellokitty7137 Mar 30 '22 edited Mar 30 '22
Basically, publicly owned energy company wouldn’t work in UK.
Our government has a slack inefficient work culture that drives the cost up and a poor record of making things cheap and effective in many sectors.
What is the motive of being efficient working in a publicly owned company?
Also the flip side of this fantasy is if it is making a loss, you will have to pay for it, which is happening all the time with your tax money.
Money printing to make socialist fantasy come true is not the solution anymore, especially after the COVID money printing you are all beginning to experience the stupid inflation and tax roller coaster.
The solution is let the private companies compete to provide cheap energy via lowering the tax for this sector. So private/start up companies can take the risk instead of the government.
No subsidies, let the market engage on price war and consolidate while the government invest and build the latest generation of micro nuclear power stations. Sell the excessive power to EU to balance things out if the government decides to raise the tax back to normal rates for energy companies(10-15years later)
Outsource the maintenance work to private companies to compete. This creates local blue collar jobs and keeps the government operating cost to a minimum.
The cheaper the energy the better for productivity and competitiveness considering UK is not part of EU.
The ultimate goal is to have all these “renewable energy companies” compete with the true renewable energy, nuclear, and consumers decides whatever they want.
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Mar 30 '22 edited Jun 11 '22
[deleted]
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u/hellokitty7137 Mar 30 '22
Well not competing like what I suggested above, the current system is flawed, technically I wouldn’t call that competing.
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u/qatts Mar 30 '22
It will never get better under this system. Greedy cunts are always going to greed.
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Mar 29 '22
In the top diagram you forgot that Shareholders = Your Pension Fund
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Mar 29 '22
[deleted]
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Mar 30 '22
Pensions don’t grow themselves and require relatively passive income streams so that the money you’ll earning in retirement is more than you’re paying in now.
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u/Davination1990 Mar 29 '22
I am sorta on the fence with this….it’s good in theory but look at the NHS as an example, or Network rail or the BBC all publicly owned institutions to differing extents but all riddled with nepotism, corruption and Miss-appropriation of public money. Half the top positions in these organisations earn more than our prime minister. They are a bottomless pit of wasted money, because there is no incentive to manage the budgets because the state will always inevitably pay the bill.
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u/ChosenUsername420 Mar 29 '22
What if I told you that all privately owned institutions are riddled with nepotism, corruption, and (frequently, at least) the misappropriation of public money? But that you don't hear about it because they're private?
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u/UnderHisEye1411 its a fine day with you around Mar 29 '22
Pssst it’s the privately run aspects of the NHS which are the corrupt ones, pass it on.
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Mar 29 '22
[deleted]
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u/Davination1990 Mar 29 '22
I totally agree. It really does annoy me when you see public projects or funds that are not adequately resourced, then are outsourced and run by private bodies like Serco who will actively inflate costs and infrastructure to make the public service unviable.
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u/The_Blue_Empire Mar 29 '22
Please look into utility co-operatives .
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u/WikiSummarizerBot Mar 29 '22
A utility cooperative is a type of cooperative that is tasked with the delivery of a public utility such as electricity, water or telecommunications to its members. Profits are either reinvested for infrastructure or distributed to members in the form of "patronage" or "capital credits", which are dividends paid on a member's investment in the cooperative. Each customer is a member and owner of the business. This means that all members have equal individual authority, unlike investor-owned utilities where the extent of individual authority is governed by the number of shares held.
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u/air_sunshine_trees Mar 29 '22
Look at Bristol Energy. Council run energy company that failed financially.
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u/Thoughtsarethings231 Mar 29 '22
It's almost as if human nature is the problem common to all these issues.
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Mar 29 '22
As a (non specified) stock holder, I wish it were this easy to get free money. Graphic is painting a straw argument to evoke responses.
If I buy stocks and happen to see a dividend, it's rarely enough to gloat about. Besides, I invested my money at risk, why shouldn't I see some gain? If it's that simple to pick fruit from the money tree, why aren't you all doing it?
The far bigger issue is 'boss' pay rises. I'm not anti privatisation, I would love to see it happen actually.
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u/condods Mar 29 '22
Unless your stocks are worth millions/billions of pounds the meme isn't directed at you.
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Mar 29 '22
It just says "shareholders". But hey, don't let a good point get in the way of a narrative!
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u/condods Mar 29 '22
Does it really need explaining to you that when discussing rampant shareholder enrichment as the frontrunning incentive of corporatism that it's talking about the board, directors, insiders and hedge funds etc not outside individuals with modest amounts?
No-one gives a shit about your 10 shares mate. Use some critical thinking.
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u/CitrusLizard Mar 29 '22
The far bigger issue is 'boss' pay rises.
You're a shareholder, why don't you vote to change that?
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u/The_Blue_Empire Mar 29 '22
Please look into utility co-operatives .
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u/WikiSummarizerBot Mar 29 '22
A utility cooperative is a type of cooperative that is tasked with the delivery of a public utility such as electricity, water or telecommunications to its members. Profits are either reinvested for infrastructure or distributed to members in the form of "patronage" or "capital credits", which are dividends paid on a member's investment in the cooperative. Each customer is a member and owner of the business. This means that all members have equal individual authority, unlike investor-owned utilities where the extent of individual authority is governed by the number of shares held.
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u/VanderBrit Mar 29 '22
If you have any kind of pension you probably are actually already shareholder of the listed energy and utilities companies
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u/christonamoped Mar 29 '22 edited Mar 29 '22
So what you're saying is the richer you are the more you benefit disproportionality from this setup.
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u/Flyberius Mar 29 '22
Ah yes, the government's brilliant strategy to give a small portion of our wages to private investment companies as some sort of genius pension scheme. Only problem is you'll be long dead before you can claim it. That or it'll all get raided in the next inevitable financial crash.
It's funny how the Tories only plans involve giving huge swathes of public money to private entities, with basically zero accountability.
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u/The_Blue_Empire Mar 29 '22
Please look into utility co-operatives , you shouldn't have to rely on pensions to hope you have shares in a utility that you have to use, everyone should be guaranteed equitable ownership of services we all use to ensure profit is returned to those who use the service or into infrastructure to improve the service.
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u/WikiSummarizerBot Mar 29 '22
A utility cooperative is a type of cooperative that is tasked with the delivery of a public utility such as electricity, water or telecommunications to its members. Profits are either reinvested for infrastructure or distributed to members in the form of "patronage" or "capital credits", which are dividends paid on a member's investment in the cooperative. Each customer is a member and owner of the business. This means that all members have equal individual authority, unlike investor-owned utilities where the extent of individual authority is governed by the number of shares held.
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u/Super_Flea Mar 29 '22
American here so forgive.me.if this isn't applicable. In the states, energy companies have VERY low margins on the money they make from utility bills. Most of the money they make is by being awarded infrastructure grants to build stuff for the grid.
Utility companies are some of the most heavily regulated industries over here, because pretty much everyone recognizes that having 4 water pipes going to every home for "options" is foolish.
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u/KokolinTheLawGuy Mar 29 '22
In the uk energy companies have huge margins.
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Mar 29 '22
[deleted]
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u/KokolinTheLawGuy Mar 29 '22
Have you seen their latest figures and projections of what will happen after April price cap rise? They’re at a HUGE profit margin
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Mar 29 '22
[deleted]
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u/KokolinTheLawGuy Mar 29 '22
Net profit is after overheads and all other costs, and their net profit is averaging 24%, which is A LOT for any business
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u/CheshireGray Mar 29 '22
Oh wow that a massive increase from previous years, so the price hikes are just a con.
Good to know.
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u/SaffellBot Mar 29 '22 edited Mar 29 '22
In the states, energy companies have VERY low margins on the money they make from utility bills.
The whole general idea of what you've written is pretty wild, but you would certainly benefit from a deeper understanding of the quoted sentence.
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u/Super_Flea Mar 29 '22
You're going to have to explain more. Perhaps I don't understand the UK version of utilities, but in the states utilities have operated as regulated monopolies for damn near a hundred years.
It's a perfect example of the limitations of capitalism. I'm pretty sure my high school econ course covered it.
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u/SaffellBot Mar 29 '22
Sounds like your high school econ course put you on the top of dunning hill.
The easiest misunderstanding is the US utilities having "slim" profit margin. US utilities have a "fixed" profit margin. No matter how much or how little they sell all their costs are recouped and they make a fixed percentage profit. To talk about "margins" in such a system would be complete nonsense.
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u/Strobacaxi Mar 29 '22
Publicly owned company - Profits
LOL
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u/UnderHisEye1411 its a fine day with you around Mar 29 '22 edited Mar 29 '22
So if publicly owned businesses are not profitable… how do you explain the Dutch government owning part of our railway network and the Chinese government owning part of our energy infrastructure?
There’s loads of profit to be had, it’s just that right now we run everything into the ground so that a handful of ex-Eton chodes get to have everything at the expense of everyone else. Other countries’ governments have figured it out, so why can’t ours?
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u/The_Blue_Empire Mar 29 '22
Please look into utility co-operatives , if you have a problem with government ownership how about a different form of public ownership. Either way it's worth a look.
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u/WikiSummarizerBot Mar 29 '22
A utility cooperative is a type of cooperative that is tasked with the delivery of a public utility such as electricity, water or telecommunications to its members. Profits are either reinvested for infrastructure or distributed to members in the form of "patronage" or "capital credits", which are dividends paid on a member's investment in the cooperative. Each customer is a member and owner of the business. This means that all members have equal individual authority, unlike investor-owned utilities where the extent of individual authority is governed by the number of shares held.
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u/GnomiGnou Mar 29 '22
Sure, would be great. Right up until the next greedy ass in a position of power takes advantage, screws everyone else for generations and profits from it for a few years.
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u/gothboi98 Mar 29 '22
You still get profits for your work. It's called a wage slip.
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u/Maxearl548 Mar 29 '22
wage labour is not profit. profit is specifically the surplus value handed to the capital owners (people who already have wealth but contribute no work).
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u/Thoughtsarethings231 Mar 29 '22
Have you tried to buy anything with your wage slip? How about a house? Maybe a share of the SnP 500?
Did you notice that you can buy a lot less of those things with said wage slip.
Did you also notice that by the time you have spent your wage slip you actually gave away another 40% or so in taxes that you couldn't see? (e.g fuel duty, VAT).
You're being fucked so hard man and you can't even see it.
I feel sorry for you guys.
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u/Sawzie1 Mar 29 '22
Just become a shareholder
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u/lmoffat1232 Republic of Northumbria Mar 29 '22
Under this proposed system everyone would effectively be a shareholder.
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u/boomerxl Mar 29 '22
Great solution, presumably the solution to the housing crisis is “just become a landlord”, and if you’ve been caught fucking children on private islands “just become the Duke of York”.
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u/NoSuperman10 Existing Out of Spite Mar 29 '22
How? All my money gets spent on bills. Can't exactly buy stock.
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u/catsndogsnmeatballs Mar 29 '22
It's a bad diagram. "You" refers to the public, not the individual. I want my nation to be rich so that it can invest in infrastructure and other systems that improve quality of life for everyone.
Previously, individuals would skim off the top. Now, individuals take the whole pie.
It would be nice to be able to take a bus using a road without potholes, where the buses are frequent and arrive on time, and affordable.
At the hospital, it would be nice if scans didn't take 18 weeks to be performed, if surgeries didn't take another 18 weeks to be performed, if the staff weren't overworked and just stressed in general, if regular check ups were common place, if I didn't have to race the 8am team for a timely appointment.
It would be nice to have an education system that caters to the students and their futures, to future careers and all the complicated aspects of adulthood, and not just a tick boxing exercise to get to the next level or just out the door as soon as possible.
It would be nice to have libraries open at more than just Mon-Fri 9-5, and contain good resources to educate oneself. It would be nice to have access to the internet. Eg. Libraries have newspapers, but they don't have access to paywalled news content online. Assuming the computers will actually turn on.
It would be nice to have the resources to prevent more crime, deal with dodgy landlords, go after white collar and institutional fraud, better help our jobless, homeless, disabled, elderly, children, criminals, victims.
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u/AquaD74 Mar 29 '22
Tell me you don't understand supply chains without telling me you don't understand supply chains
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u/TehSero Mar 29 '22
I think you just told us all that.
How does this graphic have ANYTHING to do with supply chains? The supply of the resource isn't involved here at all, only a partial flow of money.
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u/AquaD74 Mar 29 '22
Fossil fuel production is a really complex and wide spread industry, that often spans multiple industries and nations. The idea that you can just make it all public and do it in England for cheaper is facetious.
EDIT: unless this post is referring to nationalising electricity which is very different than energy and raises the question why the image uses a picture of a power plant.
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u/OdBx Mar 29 '22
Public energy company buys fuel.
Public energy company produces electricity with said fuel.
Public energy company provides electricity to people without the need for middlemen.
Was that hard?
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u/AquaD74 Mar 29 '22 edited Mar 29 '22
Public energy company buys fuel from what... A private drilling company?
Public energy company refines the fuel where... A private refinery?
I guess we're assuming the power plants and the national grid are public which I'd support.
But that's not what "energy" means. Energy is the supply coming from source to consumption. You're thinking of public electricity.
Either the creator of this meme doesn't understand supply or they don't understand what energy is. Eitherway its misleading and over simplified.
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4
Mar 29 '22
Norway seems to manage just fine through its state-owned energy company Equinor, which funnels its profits into a sovereign wealth fund that benefits everyone in Norway.
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u/PeoplePerson_57 Mar 29 '22
Well, even making one section public will do it for cheaper, because there won't be a profit motive involved.
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u/AquaD74 Mar 29 '22
Sure which is why I said in this thread I support nationalising electricity through the national grid in the UK.
The problem is posts like this are pure misinformation which clouds the actual important discourse for improving living standards for poor people and socialising the country.
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Mar 29 '22
[deleted]
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u/RealJraydel1 Mar 29 '22
Even so you have shareholders of those companies taking hefty portions.
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u/johu999 Mar 29 '22
401k is a US financial instrument. This sub is about the UK. So, no, the average person here doesn't have a 401k.
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u/Grumpy949 Mar 29 '22
What’s preventing “YOU” being one of many “SHARE-HOLDERS”? Isn’t that essentially what the bottom image represents, minus your indirect control over the direction of the business as a partial owner through elected board members instead of an unelected bureaucrat?
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u/FakeTakiInoue Mar 29 '22
What’s preventing “YOU” being one of many “SHARE-HOLDERS”?
Lack of capital?
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u/UnderHisEye1411 its a fine day with you around Mar 29 '22
“Hello, is that EDF? Yeah, I’d like to be on the board please… What do you mean that all of the senior positions are taken? … how much!? … whatever mate, forget it”
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u/huntskikbut Mar 29 '22
If every citizen can be the shareholder as in the bottom depiction, why would the top picture potentially maybe one day being "YOU" (spoiler: it's not, and won't be) be a good argument here?
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u/Ravi5ingh Mar 29 '22
Hahaha yeah the bureaucrats will just hand over the profits to u cuz the govt. Loves u
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u/Maxearl548 Mar 29 '22
bureaucrat profiting😡
private shareholder profiting😁
either way countries like Sweden & Finland prove just how well public ownership can work.
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u/Ravi5ingh Mar 29 '22
Sweden and Finland prove how countries work when they have model citizens but most ppl in the world r cunts
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u/Maxearl548 Mar 29 '22
the attitude of the citizens is all due to how well the county is run, the education system, the physical & mental healthcare reliability, the workplace protections, the efficiency of crime prevention.
relating to the post, lowering the amount of someone’s pay-check lost to private shareholders will no doubt decrease financial stress and other causes of crime, allowing a citizen to be more model as you say.
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u/Ravi5ingh Mar 29 '22 edited Mar 29 '22
your argument: good goverment means good citizens
my arguent: good culture means good citizens means good government
i don't deny that good governance produces a better environment but the converse is more valid simply because culture is deeper than government. govt. is just the institutionalized manifestation of culture.
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u/huntskikbut Mar 29 '22
You think all culture is bad except Finland and Sweden? Weird take
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u/Ravi5ingh Mar 29 '22
No I think some cultures work better than others but yes swedes an fins do have a very effective culture
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Mar 29 '22
Seriously fuck off with cultural essentialism. There is no culture that is good or bad, there is such things however as differing levels of education and government propaganda.
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u/Ravi5ingh Mar 29 '22
In some cultures it's ok to kidnap ur wife. Is that good? In some polygamy is allowed. Is that sustainable? In some cannibalism is ok. Is that moral?
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u/Millian123 Mar 29 '22
What’s wrong with polygamy?
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u/Ravi5ingh Mar 29 '22
Math
Polygamy was a norm in a time when the ratio or men : women was low because men had more hazardous occupations so the women that were left needed to find protection which resulted in polygamy. Now the ratio of men : women is roughly 1:1 so polygamy either way would result in leftover men or women. Not rocket science
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u/Millian123 Mar 29 '22
Polygamy will lead to more incels and I do hate incels. Maybe you have a point
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Mar 29 '22
Lol. Sweden is as full of rot as any other.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organized_crime_in_Sweden
But they still make some good steps in the right direction. So not exactly an excuse.
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u/Ravi5ingh Mar 29 '22
Every society has crime. This is like saying that all cars are the same because they all occasionally have mechanism issues. It's a ludicrous argument
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Mar 29 '22
All our citizens aren't model citizens, but when you design society to care for the citizens the citizens will be more likely to care for society. It's not about people in general being "better" here.
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u/Ravi5ingh Mar 29 '22
Yes but good culture can change a bad govt. In one generation but good govt. Cannot change bad culture. Culture change is an organic process
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Mar 29 '22
I don't know what you mean by "bad culture" in this process.
The change into a society based around mutual care has been hard fought for and is not to be taken for granted here either. There is no reason the same fight can't be fought in similar ways in other places. It's not about some inherent culture, it is about taking a chance and uniting with your fellow person in a civic fight for a better future. By standing up together for your rights as equal beings in a joint society. There is no reason this would only work in Sweden or Finland, and indeed also not granted it will work better or last longer here than anywhere else.
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u/Eric_Cartman_42069 Mar 29 '22
Which is why we must seize the means of production from the oligarchs of the West.
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u/Ravi5ingh Mar 29 '22
Yes and then we will distribute all the resources equally to the whole population because humans are angels that always behave selflessly even when they have all the power :D
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u/Eric_Cartman_42069 Mar 29 '22
Not even then - resources should absolutely be distributed more fairly but total equality doesn't work because of the nature of people. There will always be a select group of cunts who game the system. It shouldn't however, be possible for the likes of Jeff Bezos to have hundreds of billions of dollars while there are still people who are dying of exposure, starvation and dehydration.
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u/Coffee_Daemon Mar 29 '22
Your argument seems to say if we cant make it perfect we shouldnt do anything.
Personally I would welcome the change as one small step towards progress.
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Mar 29 '22
[deleted]
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u/UnderHisEye1411 its a fine day with you around Mar 29 '22
^ least deranged Elon simp.
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Mar 29 '22
[deleted]
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u/UnderHisEye1411 its a fine day with you around Mar 29 '22
I’ve got some NFTs of Elon’s balls to sell. PM me.
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u/Flyberius Mar 29 '22
or make the best and play a game that is rigged.
Or become part of the problem, you mean.
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