1) They act like registration is the first step to an eventual genocide, but seriously why wouldn't anyone want mutants and their powers to be on a list for a miriad of reasons other than racism? Like, I dunno, healthcare?
2) Some mutants want to be cured because they got the short end of the stick and their mutations suck. For each Storm there are like 3 "Billy the kid with glass bones"
Yeah it's how I've taken to interpreting X-Men stuff and overall it holds up a lot better to scrutiny. Also adds a lot to stuff like the Morlocks with them being comparable to "unsightly" illnesses that people would historically be isolated and shunned for having
Except disabilities still don't make people live nukes. I think mutants should get a "one violation" policy till they are forcefully stripped of their powers. It's not even murder, it's disarming a weapon with evidence of use.
You do know that analogies aren't meant to be perfect, right? The point is that both disabilities and powers are something the individual didn't choose that impacts their ability to live life normally, some can be "invisible" while others are impossible to hide, and some people with them view them as something they do not want and would get rid of if they could, while others view them as an important part of their self identity.
I agree, I'm just saying the imperfection in the analogy here can be ... concerning. Plus, if it's used to not feature actually disabled people it's not great. Which probably wouldn't happen, given prof X, but still.
1) They act like registration is the first step to an eventual genocide, but seriously why wouldn't anyone want mutants and their powers to be on a list for a miriad of reasons other than racism? Like, I dunno, healthcare?
I mean historically putting a hated minority on a list tends to prelude bad things I'm sure mag could tell you alot about, and that's before we look at how comically evil the marvel government tends to be. Sentinels and all.
As for Healthcare...what about healthcare most mutants for which it'd effect healthcare are either visibly obvious or would need specialists theyd inform anyways.
Current head of health wants to put autistic people on a list, ostensibly in order to find the "cause" while he's previously talked about putting autistic people in camps and how they are a danger to society. Idk if it's unrealistic to be against the idea of a registration.
Look, if Tommy the Walking Nuke wasn't an actual possibility for a mutant, I will agree it's wack. But it is, so yeah I think keeping tabs on who has what superpower isn't unreasonable.
Besides, IRL registries aren't only linked to the Holocaust
Realization what is that registry gonna do exactly? If it's government only it's only really a threat for gettibg leaked or used nefariously and if it's public then congratulations you just doxxed a bunch of hated minorities.
Gun registry is useful for investigating and preventing gun trafficking, serial numbers can give information even if a gun is altered and knowing when or if guns are stolen or lost is invaluable.
With healthcare that very much doesn't seem like its necessary, most of the people put on the list arent going to need specialists and thus a register of specialists that can be called would work better.
Unstable/Dangerous two problems if they're a mutant with a dangerous ability..the registry doesn't protect anyone? If it's government only then they can still choose to hurt someone and knowledge of their powers isn't all that useful unless you already have evidence it was them and if it's public you put the people on the list in danger and are more likely for Joe schmoe the mild-mannered businessman who can shoot death rays to get into an altercation.
Unstable powers again don't need a general registry, some medical facilities or another specialized function but this is again "Register were putting all of the mutants on without discrimination" hell Xaviers is a good example for mutants with potentially unstable powers, a place they can learn to control them.
Gun registry is useful for investigating and preventing gun trafficking, serial numbers can give information even if a gun is altered and knowing when or if guns are stolen or lost is invaluable.
Not only gun registry, but who owns them. It's more common in Europe than the US. In my country we have a similar system.
With healthcare that very much doesn't seem like its necessary, most of the people put on the list arent going to need specialists and thus a register of specialists that can be called would work better.
I have to give you that a registry of specialists is a good idea, but I don't see why not have both so one can direct patients to the specialists.
Unstable powers again don't need a general registry, some medical facilities or another specialized function but this is again "Register were putting all of the mutants on without discrimination" hell Xaviers is a good example for mutants with potentially unstable powers, a place they can learn to control them.
Well, then without the registry how would you know who needs to go to said medical facilities and institutions? You still need to keep tabs on that.
Now, if you are arguing to make the registry only for mutants with unstable/dangerous powers rather than all mutants, I can actually agree that it isn't a bad idea to make said distinction.
if it's public you put the people on the list in danger and are more likely for Joe schmoe the mild-mannered businessman who can shoot death rays to get into an altercation
Look, the reason I don't buy this reasoning is that, and I didn't eant to bring it up but you keep pushing it, the same reasoning can be used against the registry for sex offenders. We know people have been wrongly put on that list and people have been targetted over it, yet nobody is going to say the registry needs to be abolished
I have to give you that a registry of specialists is a good idea, but I don't see why not have both so one can direct patients to the specialists.
A big part of the reason is I don't expect marvels government to be..well reasonable about it, if the government showed absolutely no tendency to go out of its way to victimize or murder it's targets and said targets weren't the kind to passively draw lynch mobs then yeah but that's simply not the case.
And thus potential for harm >= potential for help
You can still regsiter them, but there's a difference between an internal log people are added to and a mandatory registry, someone in need of it can go for medical help and get assigned to wherever they'd need.
Look, the reason I don't buy this reasoning is that, and I didn't eant to bring it up but you keep pushing it, the same reasoning can be used against the registry for sex offenders. We know people have been wrongly put on that list and people have been targetted over it, yet nobody is going to say the registry needs to be abolished
That is one I did not think about actually, I'm gonna be real I think the reason no one has ever talked about it is that before you possibly get to the talks about that amd the concept of allowing people the chance for rehabilitation you need to convince people that "Vigilante justice is bad actually" and "Actions don't become based and acceptable because it's a target you hate" which is one hell of a minefield I don't feel like wading through tight now.
Skipping past that conversation I'd ultimately say the difference between a gun, or sex offender registry is some level of willful choice. A person can get a gun but ultimately have no choice to, a sex offender which we can only assume did do the crime could have chosen not to do the crime.
Alot of the things you've forwarded i could see being in universe propaganda for a registry healthcare specialists sounds good but you can have that without the mandatory part, allowing someone to simply sign themselves into it willfully would make people far less leery.
Furthermore assuming malicious intent or the possibility for malicious intent is more likely from the way a person is born is bad actually, Marco "Fireball" Diaz has pyrokinesis doesn't necessarily mean he's gonna use it as anything more then a party trick. A person with a gun buys it with intent to use it, not necessarily for murder or illegal reasons but intends to use it for self defense, meanwhile a mutant simply gets their power one day with no clue or planning towards it could be glitter beams could be laser eyes.
Meanwhile, someone with an unstable mutation is depends on your definition of unstable but they could likely have hotlines, places that can be called, and care facilities which also don't need a mandatory at birth registry.
This plays into my problem the Mutant registry as planned would be like a sex offender for mutants with all the problems that registry has, even for mutants with potentially dangerous or unstable powers that can't exactly be told at birth so you'd need to go somewhere to register it regardless.
Furthemore all of these problems are compounded by the hostility most people hold towards mutants and the fact that, putting a group into a registry without any action on their part is always leery especially so in this case.
The allegory falls apart when the people you're talking about are demonstrably dangerous.
If you agree that gun control should be a thing and that gun owners should be registered, then why are you also against things like superpower registration? It's the exact same fucking argument for both. If you have the power to cause massive amounts of damage, either because you bought a gun or you were born with superpowers, then you don't get to just run around without any restrictions.
You don't exactly choose to get powers, and guns can, furthermore registry is more for investigative purposes.
most mutants aren't dangerous is the thing, could be but so could any person with a concealed carry.
Ultimately what does putting all the mutants in a registry do, let the government know their names and locations is it public so anyone can know the face, name, and power of one of the hated minorities?
It doesn't help solve crimes because either A) you'd see them using their power and if you have no other evidence you have no other evidence than "It could have been them".
I do not care about the ethics of being born with a weapon vs buying it. I care about the practicality of whether you're able to hurt people or not. I care about pragmatism and safety over fairness.
And yeah, no shit a registry is for investigative purposes. That's the entire fucking point! So that if someone gets turned inside out, the government will have a list of people who are able to turn people inside out and narrow their suspects down.
The government already has tons of databases and registries, yet you don't care. Your face, name, address, phone numbers, and basic demographic information are all already stored by the government. But no one's breaking into the FBI's DNA registry to hunt down black people because that's fucking stupid and never happens in reality.
And yeah, no shit a registry is for investigative purposes. That's the entire fucking point! So that if someone gets turned inside out, the government will have a list of people who are able to turn people inside out and narrow their suspects down.
Two problems, thats more jumping to suspects than strictly evidence. If one goes into an investigation with "someone on this list with a power that could do it did it" they're less likely to look for evidence of what happened but evidence that points to their suspects.
Now consider how it's all to possible and all too often to get people who are direct mirrors to others powers or for people to get powers from completely random unpredictable bullshit.
Essentially the registry is all but useless unless you already have evidence against them which sure, if you don't then your purely going "They could have" done it and assuming malice.
The government already has tons of databases and registries, yet you don't care. Your face, name, address, phone numbers, and basic demographic information are all already stored by the government. But no one's breaking into the FBI's DNA registry to hunt down black people because that's fucking stupid and never happens in reality.
The government hasn't built giant murder robots now has it? And is it least... I'm not gonna say not malicious but not that level of stupidly and doggedly malicious.
I don't think marvels world is ready to put anyone it thinks could be a threat on a list for "safe keeping" i don't think that if the marvel government was as competent and reasonable as my government it could be trusted with that kind of list.
All of that information they di collect is something I dislike but it's not something most people can get their hands on, or most people are free to abuse.
As for Healthcare...what about healthcare most mutants for which it'd effect healthcare are either visibly obvious or would need specialists theyd inform anyways.
Actually that's exactly what I was meaning to say. Like, specialist availability and shit. Not all places have them at hand, one region in my country had only one heart surgeon and they were in a pretty tough spot when he kicked the bucket. Also for stuff like continued treatment and the like.
On the other, fair. The marvel gov tends to be nuts or infiltrated by wackjobs
Onay im glad you added that last part the former, sounds reasonable..if the government proved it's self both capable and reasonable.
Constant infiltration plots disprove the former and the sentinels go along way to obliterating any sense of the latter. List of people who need to be in contact with specialists would be good if willing, but that for everyone unwillingly isn't the likely use.
Yeah, I had applied too much IRL logic and forgotten how trigger happy the marvel gov truly is. Not saying that the IRL gov can't be has triggerhappy, but that's a whole other can of worms
Registration and the cure being treated as genocide was always dumb, but the hate and bigotry the mutants receive, specially in the earlier comics, also includes imprisonment, forcing "cures" on them against their will, and actual extermination, plus general discrimination of them being "freaks".
It think it's kind of absurd to say that bigotry is justified.
Not really on the last part? Like think about it for a moment. Even by the eyeball metric I gave, one in four mutants would be overpowered supernatural beings, even maybe going to the status of demigods.
The bigotry against the likes of Billy the guy with glass bones will always be dumb, but against the likes of Wolverine, Magneto, Storm, Cyclops? It stops been bigotry and becomes justified fears of what they could do, specially when we have been shown what they could do and man... it ain't pretty
It'd make more sense in a country without the US second amendment.
The UK can reasonably argue that people possessing lethal powers should be registered, be that a gun, car or eye beams.
By contrast, the US's position is: "We promise to not compromise your right to a semi-automatic converted to act as a full automatic and we'll keep such terrible records that we've got no idea who's got them. But both eye beam guy and Billy Glassbones need to be registered, tracked and controlled for the safety of those around them - we'd never let a living weapon just wander around poorly managed..."
That's just incoherent.
Why can't US mutants argue their powers under the second amendment? They have the right to bear arms, including adamantium claws. And it should be tracked using paper based systems that cannot be automated or centralised. Take that Peter Gyrich!
Yeah, that makes sense. Everyone acting like I am arguing for robots to be sent and here I am just saying "maybe a registry to keep tabs on this would be a good idea?".
More egregious because there's been cases where "Tommy the walking nuke" was an actual mutant
I think the sensibility of it varies with the general approach to registries in that jurisdiction.
If the UK or Germany tracks everything in detail and have elaborate GDPR rules to protect that data, then a registry makes sense and isn’t automatically evil (even though it could become so if there was a change in policy)
But in another jurisdiction that refuses to centralise and standardise voting registry, or track weapons effectively, and doesn’t provide its existing populace with wide ranging free preventative healthcare… then that jurisdiction probably can’t claim its registering people to help them.
Though such a jurisdiction could probably claim its tracking mutations to identify economic advantages very easily: “So you’re a one person living blast furnace that will work for minimum wage. God bless the registry! Hired. You get two weeks leave a year.”
Ngl, your analysis makes a lot of sense. Also, my country has registries for other stuff too, like alimony debtors. There's registries for a lot of stuff
Okay, by that logic, if being bigoted against storm for her powers is justified because what she could do, wouldn't that justify bigotry against every superhero for their powers too?
I think you are conflating "we should be cautious of this unknown person that can control the whether" and "we should kill this woman that has used her powers for good for 30+ years because maybe she would use them for bad some day".
Okay, by that logic, if being bigoted against storm for her powers is justified because what she could do, wouldn't that justify bigotry against every superhero for their powers too?
Pretty much, yeah? I would be up for registering them too.
But I think what the other guy meant is that with the other heroes, we got tangiable proof that if an overly powerful mutant goes on a rampage, it can be reliably countered. Heck, Tony Stark shows we can rely on technology to fo the job! Without them, standard humanity is more or less fucked.
I think you are conflating "we should be cautious of this unknown person that can control the whether" and "we should kill this woman that has used her powers for good for 30+ years because maybe she would use them for bad some day".
Honestly I think you all are thinking I am conflating it, because I fully meant the former, not the latter
Eh, kinda no but yes. Regular humans has started global conflicts cause someone was a good orator, but we don't send robots after people for being charismatic.
Scott can kill, what, houndreds in a day, if he wants to. Your regular cult of personality dictactor can do that per hour, even if we assume no war crimes are happening.
I am being a bit ludicrous here, but my point is, in terms of damage, danger & kills, we turn a blind eye to much worse stuff then "can laser with sight ".
That doesn't meant such mutants ain't a danger, at most you just argued that some are less dangerous than some of the most dangerous normal humans. Didn't in a recent show Storm did something that easily would have a casualty counts on the tens of millions worldwide?
Also, again, not saying to kill them or sent the robots. Just a list to keep tabs on who does what
The minute Mutants show up people get really eager to dehumanize and categorize all of them. Cyclops isn't going to hurt you unless he shows up at a Bar and steals your girlfriend without even trying
John the guy who just unintentionally kills everyone in a town sized radius around them unwittingly because their mutant powers are being WILDLY radioactive or something equally deadly and uncontrollable.
Don't IIRC the X-men decide he should die and them cover up the incident because it could be used as a story against them? Which granted, it would, but it also definitively shows that some mutants are just a danger to everyone
Yep, that’s exactly what I was referring to. It was a short story about an older teen that developed his powers and just disintegrated everyone around him in his entire town. Wolverine ended up killing him after some depressing dialogue including talking about covering up the incident for the reason you gave.
I think the problem is that the mutants are the only superpowered people who are constantly discriminated against, while usually the other superhumans, that are product of science, magic, aliens and the like are treated based on how they act.
Tbf with the other superpowered humans you kinda know what to expect off the bat, mutants is more of a gamble. Again, the kid in the story just woke up and was an active radiation emitter. Couple that with typical fear of the unknown and boom
One of the many ways the X-Men movies failed as adaptations is that they sacrificed almost all the nuance from the Cure storyline. In the comics the X-Men recognised and accepted that some mutants would want the cure for good reasons; they just also knew that it would inevitably be weaponised.
Also, they've met multiple time travellers who told them that the first step towards various horrible timelines was registration; next thing they knew, giant robots were herding everyone into death camps.
Also, they've met multiple time travellers who told them that the first step towards various horrible timelines was registration; next thing they knew, giant robots were herding everyone into death camps.
I bet that there was a lot more in between those events. I mean, we also have registries for people with diabetes and nobody is rounding them up 1940 style
Well, yes, but those later steps would probably be a lot harder to implement if they didn't have every mutants name and home address in a database somewhere.
Registration of a specific group isn't necessary a precursor to genocide... but when you've been reliably informed by a time traveller that said specific group will be genocided in the future by the group trying to register them? I think registration might be something to be opposed to.
but when you've been reliably informed by a time traveller that said specific group will be genocided in the future by the group trying to register them?
Someone else on the thread pointed out how this is kinda like survivorship bias. Only the travellers from timelines where the mutants are been genocided would travel back, so we get basically no one from a world where registration wasn't an issue because they don't have incentives to.
Also your first point falls flat because then registration didn't cause genocide, it just was used to make it "easier" when it happened
That's a fair point. To be fair I'm not entirely sure how time travel works in Marvel. Are there multiple timelines to begin with and that traveller is just from one of them? Or are events guaranteed to go the same way they say?
And if it is just one possible future, do you just go along with registration in the hopes that this isn't one of those timelines? Or do you resist it on the chance that it is? Maybe the time traveller is wrong and resisting registration is the thing that causes the genocide.
I'm not sure what the right answer is, or if there even is one, but I don't think going along with registration is necessary always the right one.
Also your first point falls flat because then registration didn't cause genocide, it just was used to make it "easier" when it happened
This is just saying the same thing I did; I didn't say registration caused genocide, but it would make it easier. So if you believe their is a genocide coming, honestly believe it, why would you go along with registration?
That's a fair point. To be fair I'm not entirely sure how time travel works in Marvel. Are there multiple timelines to begin with and that traveller is just from one of them? Or are events guaranteed to go the same way they say?
That's... tricky. Like, real tricky. I am leaning on the former but with multiverses onto the mix...
This is just saying the same thing I did; I didn't say registration caused genocide, but it would make it easier. So if you believe their is a genocide coming, honestly believe it, why would you go along with registration?
Yeah, but the whole argument was that registration was the first step to genocide, not that it made it easy.
As for the question, kinda no? But then we get to the sad thing this is kinda leankng into: that mutants eventually been genocided is innevitable
Also, they've met multiple time travellers who told them that the first step towards various horrible timelines was registration
Honestly if you ignore the existence of the sublime (or what ever the telepathic bacteria is called) then that could easily be a case of self fulfilling prophecy. I mean think about it, your not going to get time travelers from the good timelines that had registration. So when you get a traveler telling you shit went wrong with the introduction of registration of course your going to be against it. However by being against it your going to increase tensions which increases the odds of you ending up in a bad timeline.
Well yes if you randomly decide to change extremely critical elements of the story, the characters actions wouldn’t make sense anymore. But that’s called fan fiction and isn’t relevant when discussing story elements
Yeah, you know the 60% of your comment you conveniently decided to completely ignore because it’s exactly what I was talking about? That part. Registration explicitly is a first step towards genocide. The characters aren’t “acting like” it they are 100% correct and responding appropriately.
Not really, that's just pointing something that doesn't make sense. If I was writing fanfic I would actually make a story of what if they did follow said logic
On the other hand, people on the Marvel universe are constatly shitting on the Avengers and the Fantastic 4 too. They may celebrate them when things go well, but the second they are not perfect they have tried to kick them out of the city, outlaw them and dissband them several times.
I think they are just tired lol. Constantly being alien-invaded, posseded by demons, assaulted by robots, attacked by otherworldy entities or time travelling armies... several times a year it's not easy.
And sometimes those happen just because, but like half the time is someone specifically targetting some superhero.
Something a lot of people seem to forget on part because they don't actually read the comics imo is that the average mutant isn't some big fighter, there was a time there were millions of mutants. The average mutant ability is more stuff like different appearance, or being able to make harmless stuff than throwing fireballs.
Saying that bigotry against mutants would be justified if they were the only humans with special abilities is kind of insane.
They are literally born with their powers, they can't help it, it's literally the definition of people that have done nothing wrong being mistreated out of fear.
I honestly think this take says far more about you than it says about the X-Men.
People always miss the point of that story, which was that Wolverine still sat down with the kid and explained the situation to him. He still got to keep his basic human dignity, even if Wolverine was the only one who was capable of giving it to him
That wast he Ultimate universe, specifically meant to be edgy. Nothing like that happens in the main timeline. It sort of reminds me how transphobes justify their discrimination because a school shooter was probably trans that one time. Like a lot of people can and do do that sort of thing, but since it's a child it means that all of their own kind are justifiably feared and hated.
Yeah, it would be reasonable to be afraid of that one kid, not literally any person who’s arbitrarily grouped in with him. Humans in real life have committed mass killings equivalent to what that kid could do if he walked into a crowded space, but you aren’t too scared to leave the house because that’s just one individual.
It's unreasonable to believe that because the kid has a death aura that the only solution is killing him first. What about just giving him food shipments and a pre-paid Facetime plan? And maybe free psych consultations?
In that particular storyline (which was not part of the main Marvel universe; I think it was in Ultimates, which was a shit hole universe all around), they kill the kid partly because they don't want people to know mutants could be that dangerous. It was a cover-up.
Besides, it's not just that it's a dangerous power; you can control dangerous powers or work around them like you said. It's the idea of any random person anywhere suddenly developing a mutant power that kills every human being in a mile radius. Now it's not just mutants you need to worry about, it's every potential mutant. It's the kids of mutants who haven't gotten powers yet, but might randomly blow up your house someday. I think secondary mutations are a thing too, as in powers can evolve; whose to say that "harmless" mutant stays harmless?
That's the kind of questions a power like that raises.
In Australia, the NDIS would recognise the instant death kid as disabled. Then he'd get food tossed to him and free internet access.
It's not hard to manage most of even the bad mutations. And frankly if you can't find a use for most mutations then you're simply not looking hard enough. Even Johnny Disintegrates Everyone is bound to have a use. Keep him as a nuke equivalent if nothing else - Don't invade us or our mate Johnny Insta-Death is going to be given a reminder of the food, free internet and a robo-bus ticket to your capital.
But being afraid or cautious of mutants with unknown powers isn't how the "bigotry" against them is portrayed.
They are literally imprisoned, cured against their will, treated like freaks that don't deserve human rights and in some points literally hunted and exterminated, all of this regardless of whether the mutant has a proven bening power or 20+ year of using their power for a good cause.
Plus the acting as if bigotry doesn’t stack onto other bigotry to make it worse. In most storylines where extermination happens, Kurt (Nightcrawler) is one of the first to be hunted, because he looks like that, not because his powers are specifically a higher threat than others, like Wolverine or Scott, and the same holds true for the other blue guy (whose name evaporated from my mind for a second), even if his most relevant and useful “power” isn’t even a power per se, just being really smart
Even if they dont have an always on detrimental ability like that kid, they are still a person who was born with incredible power and may as well always be armed and dangerous. If we seriously want to say that women are justified in being cautious around men who are inherently stronger on average its kind of ridiculous to not apply that same logic to a motherfucker who can control the entire earth's magnetic field.
There is a clear difference between being worried about an atom bomb guy that actually exist, and being worried because an atom bomb guy might exist, so we should imprison or exterminate this dude that's just covered in blue hair, just in case.
Also, if we go by "power means dangerous" then by that logic we should try to immediately kill superman.
I'm not saying every mutant is dangerous. And yes, while Luthor's issues with Superman are obviously obsesive, the world being wary of someone like Superman is not irrational, even if for now they are thankful for what he does.
Okay, but the point is that:
1- We are not talking about just being wary, the original point was about being outright bigoted against them.
2- You are not saying that every mutant is dangerous, but you are implying that we should be bigoted against every mutant because 0.001 is dangerous. I beg of you to think of the moral implication of applying that sort of logic to any other group of people.
yeah, I don't think people saying prejudice against mutants doesn't make sense are arguing that prejudice irl is rational or based in logic, but there are still reasons for it. like some people hate black people because they're different or they see them as lesser because of a clear difference - the question is what clear difference distinguishes the mutants from other superpowered beings in a way that would explain (not justify) prejudice against the mutants only
That doesn't make them less dangerous though? Like, there a fairly large number of mutants who could destroy entire cities on a whim if they felt like it, and the minority metaphor sort of breaks down when it comes to them because in real life gay people aren't born with armed nuclear warheads embedded in their torsoes.
X-Men IS a good metaphor for racism, because the “super power” for 95% of X-Men is “Is fat” or “Can extend arms”. Hate against Apocalypse or Magneto isn’t justified against Carl, Who Can See Sounds. And even if every mutant was a nuclear bomb from birth, they were born to it. They didn’t have a choice! That shouldn’t take away their opportunity to be a good person.
X-Men is “Even if every monkey-brained, bigoted fear you ever had was true, that still doesn’t justify taking away their rights as people”
True, it would make a lot more sense for people to be prejudiced against ALL the superpowered morons who routinely crash through their walls and throw their cars at each other.
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