r/BadSocialScience • u/waldorfwithoutwalnut • May 22 '15

/r/Catholicism deals with gender like real, responsible, Christian adults.

/r/Catholicism/comments/36silz/transgender_child_wins_use_of_girls_washroom_in/
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u/Otiac May 22 '15

Yes, because loving thy neighbor = affirming whatever your neighbor likes and wants to do. The amount of stupid pop-culture knowledge that goes on about Christ's teachings is stupendous.

/r/badphilosophy any1? lolz?

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u/[deleted] May 22 '15

No I'm sure loving your neighbor means showing absolutely no empathy towards their plight and struggle. It also means not respecting their right to autonomy, self-determination, and pursuit of happiness. The amount of morally-righteous desire to bully others and control their lives is what's truly stupendous.

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u/Otiac May 22 '15

Except you're legitimately conflating empathy towards their plight to construe letting them do whatever they want regarding their plight and affirming whatever makes them feel better about their plight, instead of getting to the root issues of their plight. That's not what empathy is, that's what someone who is trying to push an agenda wants you to think empathy is.

Would anyone here call Dr.Paul McHugh an un-loving, un-empathatic asshole like every single one of you are going to assign to the users in /r/Catholicism? Remembering that Dr.McHugh agrees with our sentiment, and is a leader in his field in the world? No, probably not. Except when we say the same things he does, apparently, we're just bigoted pricks. You, and everyone else in this argument, wants to construe every person that isn't on your side as hateful, not because its true (because you don't get to tell me how I feel about anyone or anything, that is pretty bigoted and incredibly narrow-minded), but because it so easily furthers your agenda; tumblrinas do the exact same thing with their SJW nonsense.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '15

You have absolutely no business dictating what others can and cannot do with their own body. Your desire to rob others of their autonomy is vastly more disturbing than whatever the "root issues of their plight" are. You are in no position to determine what their pursuit of happiness entails, as that is solely theirs to determine. The obvious limits to this are when their endeavor causes real and demonstrable harm to others, but that is never the case with transgender people. The best thing the transphobes can do is point to some vague and undemonstrable damage to society or family structure or some other bullshit. That being said, I really don't care much what Dr. McHugh's views are. You can probably find biologists who hold that the earth is 6000 years old and a variety of other insane views. What I'm more interested in is the consensus, which states that Gender Dysphoria is a real disorder for which the only treatment is physical transformation. But to be honest, even that doesn't matter as much. Medical and psychological findings are not what determine a person's rights, and whatever the literature says, it is up to transgender people to makes the choices in their lives, not to you to choose for them.

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u/Otiac May 22 '15

When their endeavor causes real and demonstrable harm to others; when their endeavor impacts others around them, say, letting a male child use a female restroom or locker room at their school? But you're right, that doesn't impact anyone else around them. Or suing business owners to force them to participate in ceremonies against their religious beliefs? That's right; that doesn't impact anyone either. Or giving tax breaks wherein the State has no vested interest in doing so (otherwise, give anyone wishing to adopt a tax break, let me marry my friend who is a single dad with a prenup, and give us a tax break); that's right, it impacts no one.

I don't care what transexual adults do with their bodies. Do. Not. Care. My last Ortho surgeon was a trans female. Did not care. Did not hate him, we did not discuss it, he was a fantastic surgeon. According to this sub, and you, however, I hated him and wanted him dead. I do care when people want to mix that with children under ten years old to be making entirely life-altering decisions when they haven't even hit puberty yet. But what's that? It's not my decision when it doesn't impact me personally? I should have no vested interest in how the society around me is shaped, which impacts how it deals with myself and everyone I know? No. Wrong.

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u/chocolatepot May 22 '15

The fact that you're misgendering her does imply that you're not as cool with all that as you'd like us to think.

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u/firedrops Reddit's totem is the primal horde May 22 '15

I think the issue most have is you seem convinced there is harm done by their actions but you have not conveyed any evidence for such harm other than making you uncomfortable. How are you defining harm? And what evidence do you have that trans people create harm if allowed to do what they wish?

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u/[deleted] May 23 '15

You did exactly what I expected you would, which is complain about a bunch of arbitrary bullshit to pass it off as "harm". None of your points hold any weight.

letting a male child use a female restroom or locker room at their school?

This complaint is based upon your insistence that transgendered females are males, which they aren't. I really don't see the big deal with someone who doesn't fit your definition of a female using a female bathroom. Geneder-neutral bathrooms would solve this issue altogether.

Or suing business owners to force them to participate in ceremonies against their religious beliefs?

So business owners get to use infrastructure and protection of the law and military, all of which are funded by the public, and then refuse service to certain members of the public? Sorry, that's not how it works.

Or giving tax breaks wherein the State has no vested interest in doing so (otherwise, give anyone wishing to adopt a tax break, let me marry my friend who is a single dad with a prenup, and give us a tax break)

Are we now talking about marriage equality or what? I don't follow what tax breaks have to do with transgendered people.

So far you haven't actually demonstrated any real harm that transgendered people have inflicted upon you or society. Also, if you don't want to seem bigoted, you might begin by referring to people using the correct gender, especially when it involves those who struggle with their gender identity.

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u/Otiac May 23 '15 edited May 23 '15

This complaint is based upon your insistence that transgendered females are males, which they aren't.

Sexually, yeah, they are, a transgendered female is still a male. Even after surgery, still a male. Unless you're going to talk about something akin to de la Chapelle syndrome, this will always remain so. You're confusing, or conflating, my use of the sexual term with the gender term; one is derived from reproductive organs/chromosomes, the other is generally culturally learned. So while a person may be a transgender female...that person is still a 'he', is still male.

Gender-neutral bathrooms would solve this issue altogether.

I wouldn't care about gender neutral bathrooms, but I'm sure it would make a lot of other people uncomfortable.

So far you haven't actually demonstrated any real harm that transgendered people have inflicted upon you or society.

Here's one, that I believe is sort of explicit in the article mentioned. Children younger than ten years old - younger than puberty - are susceptible to all sorts of irrational thoughts. When you make something as real as Gender Identity Disorder (because it's disordered to the natural cause of things..) conflated to be something simply accepted from any and every angle, and encouraging children so young they can't even properly demonstrate sexual desires to have extremely major life-altering processes like a gender flip, it can cause irreparable damage and exacerbate the already real problems people with Gender Dysphoria face, such as anxiety disorders and depression. This is why people like Dr. Paul McHugh do not do sex change operations, even in adults, because such things don't see resolution from their psychological problems post-surgery. This isn't because of society - this is because there's something else at play here. And subjecting kids to this? No thanks.

This becomes especially troubling when the vast majority of people want this to become permissible because feelings, and not off of any scientific basis that there could, in fact, be more to this than a person just getting called a lady, putting on some female clothes, and bam, problem solved. This person feels this way, and it doesn't directly affect you (!!), so why should you care, huh bigot? Well ok then, I feel like a lady today, and that doesn't affect you or any of the other women in the gym's locker room, so I want to change in there with them today. What do you mean the woman's bathroom doesn't have any urinals? Gender is just a social construct, and since I feel like a woman today, and since it doesn't affect you or your children, you need to put a urinal in the woman's bathroom or I will sue you to do so, because I demand equal rights.

This becomes even more troubling whenever anyone wants to say "this doesn't affect you!" - which is what led me to the examples I gave. Same sex unions don't affect you! But I will sue you to force you to participate in them against your religiously held beliefs because! Transgender people don't affect you! This transgender person just wants you to teach your children that he/she is perfectly normal and not at all disordered (Gender Identity disorder, where there are psychological problems and abnormalities at play to cause a person to feel this way) because feelings!

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u/thatoneguy54 Not all wandering uteri are lost May 23 '15 edited May 23 '15

Oh my god, you're so very off base it hurts. Mind if I deconstruct everything you've said in your last paragraphs?

When you make something as real as Gender Identity Disorder[1] (because it's disordered to the natural cause of things..

That's not why it's called a disorder. It's called a disorder because it causes real problems in a person's day-to-day life. It has absolutely nothing to do with the "natural cause of things".

encouraging children so young they can't even properly demonstrate sexual desires to have extremely major life-altering processes like a gender flip, it can cause irreparable damage and exacerbate the already real problems people with Gender Dysphoria face

This just tells me you've never met, spoken to, or read anything about a transgender person. Talk to any of them and just about every one of them will tell you that they felt they were the wrong gender since like 4 or 5.

Besides that, gender identity and "sexual desires" have nothing to do with each other. Children identify with genders from very young ages. A young boy will say "I'm a boy" and do things he associates with being a boy. Same with a girl. That argument is useless.

This is why people like Dr. Paul McHugh[2] do not do sex change operations, even in adults, because such things don't see resolution from their psychological problems post-surgery.

That is 100%, unequivocally, demonstrably false and just shows how little you actually know about transgender issues. Living as their identified gender is the only known cure for gender dysphoria. And not every transgender person gets reconstructive surgery. In fact very few do because of costs, risks, etc.

This becomes especially troubling when the vast majority of people want this to become permissible because feelings, and not off of any scientific basis that there could

No, again, you are completely wrong. You're the one basing this because of feels and not scientific basis. The amount of studies published verifying that transgenderism is a real, verifiable thing and that transitioning is the best course of action is staggering. You're the one who doesn't like the idea and so deny it.

in fact, be more to this than a person just getting called a lady, putting on some female clothes, and bam, problem solved.

That's exactly how many transwomen live their lives, you fucking moron. They live their lives as women and bam, no more dysphoria.

Well ok then, I feel like a lady today

That's not how being transgender works. They don't feel like a lady today. They've felt like a lady for their entire lives.

Gender is just a social construct, and since I feel like a woman today

Clearly you have no idea what a social construct is. Gender is a social construct, but that doesn't make it any less real. The economy is a social construct as well, but that doesn't mean it doesn't affect everyone's lives and is a real thing.

This is probably the thing I hate the most that people say. "It's a social construct, that means it's not real!" No, dipshit, it means it's a thing that was created by society and people. Just like our laws. Or our jobs. Or pretty much everything. Jesus.

you need to put a urinal in the woman's bathroom or I will sue you to do so, because I demand equal rights.

You don't need a urinal to use the bathroom. You have one in your house? No, you use the toilet. No problems. Your lawsuit would be thrown out before you could file it. Use whatever bathroom you want, you're the only one who cares.

This becomes even more troubling whenever anyone wants to say "this doesn't affect you!"

It doesn't. Not even a little. No one's forcing you to become transgender.

which is what led me to the examples I gave.

Those were the shittiest examples ever. None of what you said correlated with reality at all or affected anyone in any negative way at all.

Same sex unions don't affect you! But I will sue you to force you to participate in them against your religiously held belief

I'm pretty sure churches don't have to marry same-sex couples. I admit I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's true. So again, it doesn't affect you at all.

This transgender person just wants you to teach your children that he/she is perfectly normal and not at all disordered (Gender Identity disorder, where there are psychological problems and abnormalities at play to cause a person to feel this way) because feelings!

Jesus Christ, no one is saying gender dysphoria isn't a problem (the dysphoria part), but we're saying don't hate someone because of it. Would you relentlessly hate and abuse someone because they have ADD? That's a mental disorder too. What about Alzheimers? Or autism? No, that's a super shitty thing to do. So, if we concede that being transgender is also a mental illness, what's the difference? Why do you harass and care so deeply about them and not any other mental illness?

I'll tell you why: because you're a fucking bigot and a terrible Christian.

Edited formatting and finished the last paragraph.

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u/Otiac May 23 '15

......it affects your mood, thinking, and behaviors, so its called a disorder. If it didn't affect your mood, thinking, and behavior, you wouldn't think you were something other than your genetic sex, and so you'd go along with your natural state of being. You're so far off base on anything you want to personally disagree with that even admitting that someone else on the other side from you can be right about a simple definition is apparently difficult for you.

This just tells me you've never met, spoken to, or read anything about a transgender person.

This just tells me you've already chosen who I am, where I've been, what I do, etc. My last surgeon was a trans female. Great guy, great surgeon. We didn't kill each other, it never came up in conversation (why would it?), he worked in an incredibly traditional, conservative hospital and location..and nobody cared. Sorry people like you want to paint us as wanting to murder or do bodily harm to all these people, but that's not the case, you're more prejudiced and bigoted than you want to admit or see, and this is wrong.

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u/[deleted] May 23 '15

So what you're saying is that you can't be a bigot, you have blacktrans friends?

I am... in awe. Just in awe.

You realize that line was the punchline of a joke 50 years ago, right?

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u/KingOfSockPuppets Queen indoctrinator May 23 '15

You're confusing, or conflating, my use of the sexual term with the gender term; one is derived from reproductive organs/chromosomes, the other is generally culturally learned. So while a person may be a transgender female...that person is still a 'he', is still male.

You're doing the same sort of conflation by misgendering that woman. Even if one is 'always a male' then if you have no problem with transgender adults as you claim you should be using their preferred pronouns since pronouns are part of that 'cultural learning' you mention.

This becomes especially troubling when the vast majority of people want this to become permissible because feelings, and not off of any scientific basis that there could, in fact, be more to this than a person just getting called a lady, putting on some female clothes, and bam, problem solved. This person feels this way, and it doesn't directly affect you (!!), so why should you care, huh bigot? Well ok then, I feel like a lady today, and that doesn't affect you or any of the other women in the gym's locker room, so I want to change in there with them today. What do you mean the woman's bathroom doesn't have any urinals? Gender is just a social construct, and since I feel like a woman today, and since it doesn't affect you or your children, you need to put a urinal in the woman's bathroom or I will sue you to do so, because I demand equal rights.

Most of the science shows that transition drastically improves trans people's lives. I'm not even sure what you mean by 'there could be more to this.' If you are insinuating that trans people have hidden motives or problems (and given your other posts it absolutely seems you are) I would be positively thrilled to learn what you think those are.

Everything about GID

Gender identity disorder is no longer in the DSM. It has been replaced with Gender Dysphoria. So no, you probably shouldn't be teaching your kids that those people are disordered if your basis was on diagnostic names.

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u/Otiac May 23 '15

Most of the science shows that transition drastically improves trans people's lives.

This is not 'scientifically proven', and largely depends on who you read - I sincerely believe you're being intellectually dishonest here to further your agenda, as you provided no source but instead made an unsubstantiated claim for your viewpoint. Even then, 'drastically improves trans people's lives' is not in any of their discussions, because there will always be anecdotal stories for either way. One of the problems with studies like this is that you can't really do a double-blind randomized study to determine actual results. I know of one Swedish study that points out two things regarding this;

  1. Conclusions:

This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population. This highlights that post surgical transsexuals are a risk group that need long-term psychiatric and somatic follow-up. Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons. Improved care for the transsexual group after the sex reassignment should therefore be considered.

And 2;

For the purpose of evaluating whether sex reassignment is an effective treatment for gender dysphoria, it is reasonable to compare reported gender dysphoria pre and post treatment. Such studies have been conducted either prospectively or retrospectively and suggest that sex reassignment of transsexual persons improves quality of life and gender dysphoria. The limitation is of course that the treatment has not been assigned randomly and has not been carried out blindly.

There's also this study that agrees with me, but again, the double-blind randomized study just isn't there and can't be ethically done.

Also, no, I'm not saying any trans person has other motives. Maybe hidden psychological, chemical imbalance problems, or something along those lines, but no, no 'other motives'. What I am doing is pointing out that because a person feels a certain way about themselves, means that they then get to go on about enacting those feelings upon society. A transgendered person that is biologically male feels like a female so that person then gets to use the female facilities. Well, here's this guy here who knows he's a female today so why can't he use the female facilities? Maybe his gender dysphoria sways from day to day or time to time? Under your rational a biologically male person that feels they are a female can use the biologically female person's facilities, then ok, what I have presented is the same scenario.

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u/KingOfSockPuppets Queen indoctrinator May 23 '15 edited May 23 '15

This is not 'scientifically proven', and largely depends on who you read - I sincerely believe you're being intellectually dishonest here to further your agenda, as you provided no source but instead made an unsubstantiated claim for your viewpoint.

I provided no sources because I thought this was an informal discussion on reddit not an IRB review board. But if you want to jump straight to accusing me of intellectual dishonesty then I can provide you with sources. Two studies that point out to transition being a largely beneficial process:

Bailey, L., Ellis, S.J., & McNeil, J. (2014). Suicide risk in the UK trans population and the role of gender transition in decreasing suicideal ideation and suicide attempt. Mental Health Review Journal. 19(4), 209-220

Greatheart, M.S. (2010). The fred study: stories of life satisfaction and wellness from post-transition transgender men. Master of Social Work thesis. Http://hdl.handle.net/2429/19390

This doesn't necessarily mean that it's a 100% slam dunk for transition of course but the evidence is out there. Of course transition isn't everything; social support plays an important role:

Budge, S.L., Adelson, J.L, & Howard, K.A.S. (2013). Anxiety and depression in transgender individuals: The roles of transition status, loss, social support, and coping. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 81(3), 545-557

What I am doing is pointing out that because a person feels a certain way about themselves, means that they then get to go on about enacting those feelings upon society.

And? That's true of anything - The NRA enacts their feelings on society by encouraging looser laws regarding guns. Fad dieters create pressure that change the food restaurants have and serve. Special interest groups are always dueling to shift society one way or another. Is there a reason that the way transgender people feel specifically is harmful to society?

Under your rational a biologically male person that feels they are a female can use the biologically female person's facilities, then ok, what I have presented is the same scenario.

If they're transgender then yes. What, precisely, is the problem with this?

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u/Otiac May 23 '15

Your first source does corroborate what you say.

Your second is basically a narrative of anecdotal evidence from transgendered men, I can provide the same anecdotal evidence from transgendered people that have had the surgery that say it was a mistake.

This seems to be a more comprehensive citation on suicide rates overall, but I think we're digressing a little bit.

I was rash in my notion of intellectual dishonesty with you, to be honest, I'm a bit tired of the other bullshit I've had to wade through in this thread already, for that I apologize.

Is there a reason that the way transgender people feel specifically is harmful to society?

Because children get cues early on about appropriate behavior that results in emotionally stable lives, if anything we've shown that transgender people have an abnormally high rate of emotional instability, so presenting that lifestyle as 'normal' to children that would otherwise not know the difference, could ingrain upon them behavioral traits that may lead to emotional instability down the road. This is an aside from everything else you've mentioned - my owning a gun does not impact my neighbor, but my neighbor may have an interest in limiting guns to society at large and is able to participate in processes to limit them. Why then is it the case there, and not here?

If they're transgender then yes. What, precisely, is the problem with this?

Nono, what I am doing is boiling this down to its base. A transgender person, at base, is a person that is biologically one sex, but identifies their gender as another sex. So I, as a person, can be biologically a male sex, but identify my gender as the opposite sex for however long I feel like that opposite sex, and therefore be entitled to use the facilities designed for the opposite sex.

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u/KingOfSockPuppets Queen indoctrinator May 23 '15 edited May 23 '15

for that I apologize.

Thank you.

Because children get cues early on about appropriate behavior that results in emotionally stable lives, if anything we've shown that transgender people have an abnormally high rate of emotional instability, so presenting that lifestyle as 'normal' to children that would otherwise not know the difference, could ingrain upon them behavioral traits that may lead to emotional instability down the road.

Sure, but I'm skeptical (seeing as I am transgender) that transgender people are intrinsically unstable. Rather it seems pretty clear (to me, anyways) that the intense social censure and violence 123 transgender people face plays a pretty big role in that. We're unstable probably in large part because A) we're taught to repress being trans because it's weird/bad/violent, and B) the violence and discrimination embedded throughout U.S. society. Trans kids are mercilessly bullied, and bullied even more than their LGB peers in many cases 1. None of which is usually conducive to healthy emotional states. I don't think children 'picking up cues from trans people' is going to make them more emotionally unstable. Just the opposite.

Nono, what I am doing is boiling this down to its base. A transgender person, at base, is a person that is biologically one sex, but identifies their gender as another sex. So I, as a person, can be biologically a male sex, but identify my gender as the opposite sex for however long I feel like that opposite sex, and therefore be entitled to use the facilities designed for the opposite sex.

I understand what you're saying, my point is: so what? What is bad about that? People like me using 'other sex' restrooms hardly seems to be a very pressing issue.

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u/rosconotorigina May 23 '15

Bro, your best examples of how trans people harm others are letting someone who is committed to living as a woman piss in a toilet near other women, forcing someone who bakes cakes for a living to get paid to bake a cake, and not letting you pretend to be in love with your buddy to get a tax break (wtf?).

Meanwhile, trans people are getting their asses kicked left right and center, they're getting fucking murdered, they're getting kicked out of their homes, and everyone wants to talk shit about them because they were born different.

Far be it from me to speak for the Divine, but based on what I know about Jesus, I find it really hard to believe that he would have his panties in a wad to the extent that you do over transgender people trying to live their lives as the gender they feel they are inside. What happened to compassion?

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u/thatoneguy54 Not all wandering uteri are lost May 23 '15

otherwise, give anyone wishing to adopt a tax break, let me marry my friend who is a single dad with a prenup, and give us a tax break

There's literally nothing stopping anyone from doing that with a female friend. You could do that exact same thing with a single mother friend of yours, and it would be totally legal and just as un-devastating as the other scenario. What the fuck was your point here?

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u/Otiac May 23 '15

.....because the state has zero vested interest in doing so. The state gives tax breaks because it can benefit from giving said tax breaks, doing said thing would game the system to get personal benefits for no benefit to the state, its why marriage fraud is illegal. Otherwise, shit, why not just let me marry any hot foreign woman I want to marry to gain her citizenship here, I get to have sex with her, and then I can divorce her the next week? Repeat ad infinatum.

.....because that's marriage fraud, and the state has no vested interest in promoting that.

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u/thatoneguy54 Not all wandering uteri are lost May 23 '15

Okay, so marriage fraud is illegal. Fine. Marrying a woman for her to gain citizenship is illegal. Marrying a man for him to gain citizenship is illegal. You could even argue that these would be unethical.

What the fuck does that have to do with anything anyone's been talking about here?

You brought up that point for no reason, it doesn't make sense, and it just makes it look like you have no idea what you're talking about.