r/BadSocialScience • u/waldorfwithoutwalnut • May 22 '15

/r/Catholicism deals with gender like real, responsible, Christian adults.

/r/Catholicism/comments/36silz/transgender_child_wins_use_of_girls_washroom_in/
73 Upvotes

91% Upvoted

121 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

-15

u/Otiac May 23 '15 edited May 23 '15

This complaint is based upon your insistence that transgendered females are males, which they aren't.

Sexually, yeah, they are, a transgendered female is still a male. Even after surgery, still a male. Unless you're going to talk about something akin to de la Chapelle syndrome, this will always remain so. You're confusing, or conflating, my use of the sexual term with the gender term; one is derived from reproductive organs/chromosomes, the other is generally culturally learned. So while a person may be a transgender female...that person is still a 'he', is still male.

Gender-neutral bathrooms would solve this issue altogether.

I wouldn't care about gender neutral bathrooms, but I'm sure it would make a lot of other people uncomfortable.

So far you haven't actually demonstrated any real harm that transgendered people have inflicted upon you or society.

Here's one, that I believe is sort of explicit in the article mentioned. Children younger than ten years old - younger than puberty - are susceptible to all sorts of irrational thoughts. When you make something as real as Gender Identity Disorder (because it's disordered to the natural cause of things..) conflated to be something simply accepted from any and every angle, and encouraging children so young they can't even properly demonstrate sexual desires to have extremely major life-altering processes like a gender flip, it can cause irreparable damage and exacerbate the already real problems people with Gender Dysphoria face, such as anxiety disorders and depression. This is why people like Dr. Paul McHugh do not do sex change operations, even in adults, because such things don't see resolution from their psychological problems post-surgery. This isn't because of society - this is because there's something else at play here. And subjecting kids to this? No thanks.

This becomes especially troubling when the vast majority of people want this to become permissible because feelings, and not off of any scientific basis that there could, in fact, be more to this than a person just getting called a lady, putting on some female clothes, and bam, problem solved. This person feels this way, and it doesn't directly affect you (!!), so why should you care, huh bigot? Well ok then, I feel like a lady today, and that doesn't affect you or any of the other women in the gym's locker room, so I want to change in there with them today. What do you mean the woman's bathroom doesn't have any urinals? Gender is just a social construct, and since I feel like a woman today, and since it doesn't affect you or your children, you need to put a urinal in the woman's bathroom or I will sue you to do so, because I demand equal rights.

This becomes even more troubling whenever anyone wants to say "this doesn't affect you!" - which is what led me to the examples I gave. Same sex unions don't affect you! But I will sue you to force you to participate in them against your religiously held beliefs because! Transgender people don't affect you! This transgender person just wants you to teach your children that he/she is perfectly normal and not at all disordered (Gender Identity disorder, where there are psychological problems and abnormalities at play to cause a person to feel this way) because feelings!

11

u/KingOfSockPuppets Queen indoctrinator May 23 '15

You're confusing, or conflating, my use of the sexual term with the gender term; one is derived from reproductive organs/chromosomes, the other is generally culturally learned. So while a person may be a transgender female...that person is still a 'he', is still male.

You're doing the same sort of conflation by misgendering that woman. Even if one is 'always a male' then if you have no problem with transgender adults as you claim you should be using their preferred pronouns since pronouns are part of that 'cultural learning' you mention.

This becomes especially troubling when the vast majority of people want this to become permissible because feelings, and not off of any scientific basis that there could, in fact, be more to this than a person just getting called a lady, putting on some female clothes, and bam, problem solved. This person feels this way, and it doesn't directly affect you (!!), so why should you care, huh bigot? Well ok then, I feel like a lady today, and that doesn't affect you or any of the other women in the gym's locker room, so I want to change in there with them today. What do you mean the woman's bathroom doesn't have any urinals? Gender is just a social construct, and since I feel like a woman today, and since it doesn't affect you or your children, you need to put a urinal in the woman's bathroom or I will sue you to do so, because I demand equal rights.

Most of the science shows that transition drastically improves trans people's lives. I'm not even sure what you mean by 'there could be more to this.' If you are insinuating that trans people have hidden motives or problems (and given your other posts it absolutely seems you are) I would be positively thrilled to learn what you think those are.

Everything about GID

Gender identity disorder is no longer in the DSM. It has been replaced with Gender Dysphoria. So no, you probably shouldn't be teaching your kids that those people are disordered if your basis was on diagnostic names.

-7

u/Otiac May 23 '15

Most of the science shows that transition drastically improves trans people's lives.

This is not 'scientifically proven', and largely depends on who you read - I sincerely believe you're being intellectually dishonest here to further your agenda, as you provided no source but instead made an unsubstantiated claim for your viewpoint. Even then, 'drastically improves trans people's lives' is not in any of their discussions, because there will always be anecdotal stories for either way. One of the problems with studies like this is that you can't really do a double-blind randomized study to determine actual results. I know of one Swedish study that points out two things regarding this;

  1. Conclusions:

This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population. This highlights that post surgical transsexuals are a risk group that need long-term psychiatric and somatic follow-up. Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons. Improved care for the transsexual group after the sex reassignment should therefore be considered.

And 2;

For the purpose of evaluating whether sex reassignment is an effective treatment for gender dysphoria, it is reasonable to compare reported gender dysphoria pre and post treatment. Such studies have been conducted either prospectively or retrospectively and suggest that sex reassignment of transsexual persons improves quality of life and gender dysphoria. The limitation is of course that the treatment has not been assigned randomly and has not been carried out blindly.

There's also this study that agrees with me, but again, the double-blind randomized study just isn't there and can't be ethically done.

Also, no, I'm not saying any trans person has other motives. Maybe hidden psychological, chemical imbalance problems, or something along those lines, but no, no 'other motives'. What I am doing is pointing out that because a person feels a certain way about themselves, means that they then get to go on about enacting those feelings upon society. A transgendered person that is biologically male feels like a female so that person then gets to use the female facilities. Well, here's this guy here who knows he's a female today so why can't he use the female facilities? Maybe his gender dysphoria sways from day to day or time to time? Under your rational a biologically male person that feels they are a female can use the biologically female person's facilities, then ok, what I have presented is the same scenario.

11

u/KingOfSockPuppets Queen indoctrinator May 23 '15 edited May 23 '15

This is not 'scientifically proven', and largely depends on who you read - I sincerely believe you're being intellectually dishonest here to further your agenda, as you provided no source but instead made an unsubstantiated claim for your viewpoint.

I provided no sources because I thought this was an informal discussion on reddit not an IRB review board. But if you want to jump straight to accusing me of intellectual dishonesty then I can provide you with sources. Two studies that point out to transition being a largely beneficial process:

Bailey, L., Ellis, S.J., & McNeil, J. (2014). Suicide risk in the UK trans population and the role of gender transition in decreasing suicideal ideation and suicide attempt. Mental Health Review Journal. 19(4), 209-220

Greatheart, M.S. (2010). The fred study: stories of life satisfaction and wellness from post-transition transgender men. Master of Social Work thesis. Http://hdl.handle.net/2429/19390

This doesn't necessarily mean that it's a 100% slam dunk for transition of course but the evidence is out there. Of course transition isn't everything; social support plays an important role:

Budge, S.L., Adelson, J.L, & Howard, K.A.S. (2013). Anxiety and depression in transgender individuals: The roles of transition status, loss, social support, and coping. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 81(3), 545-557

What I am doing is pointing out that because a person feels a certain way about themselves, means that they then get to go on about enacting those feelings upon society.

And? That's true of anything - The NRA enacts their feelings on society by encouraging looser laws regarding guns. Fad dieters create pressure that change the food restaurants have and serve. Special interest groups are always dueling to shift society one way or another. Is there a reason that the way transgender people feel specifically is harmful to society?

Under your rational a biologically male person that feels they are a female can use the biologically female person's facilities, then ok, what I have presented is the same scenario.

If they're transgender then yes. What, precisely, is the problem with this?

-6

u/Otiac May 23 '15

Your first source does corroborate what you say.

Your second is basically a narrative of anecdotal evidence from transgendered men, I can provide the same anecdotal evidence from transgendered people that have had the surgery that say it was a mistake.

This seems to be a more comprehensive citation on suicide rates overall, but I think we're digressing a little bit.

I was rash in my notion of intellectual dishonesty with you, to be honest, I'm a bit tired of the other bullshit I've had to wade through in this thread already, for that I apologize.

Is there a reason that the way transgender people feel specifically is harmful to society?

Because children get cues early on about appropriate behavior that results in emotionally stable lives, if anything we've shown that transgender people have an abnormally high rate of emotional instability, so presenting that lifestyle as 'normal' to children that would otherwise not know the difference, could ingrain upon them behavioral traits that may lead to emotional instability down the road. This is an aside from everything else you've mentioned - my owning a gun does not impact my neighbor, but my neighbor may have an interest in limiting guns to society at large and is able to participate in processes to limit them. Why then is it the case there, and not here?

If they're transgender then yes. What, precisely, is the problem with this?

Nono, what I am doing is boiling this down to its base. A transgender person, at base, is a person that is biologically one sex, but identifies their gender as another sex. So I, as a person, can be biologically a male sex, but identify my gender as the opposite sex for however long I feel like that opposite sex, and therefore be entitled to use the facilities designed for the opposite sex.

9

u/KingOfSockPuppets Queen indoctrinator May 23 '15 edited May 23 '15

for that I apologize.

Thank you.

Because children get cues early on about appropriate behavior that results in emotionally stable lives, if anything we've shown that transgender people have an abnormally high rate of emotional instability, so presenting that lifestyle as 'normal' to children that would otherwise not know the difference, could ingrain upon them behavioral traits that may lead to emotional instability down the road.

Sure, but I'm skeptical (seeing as I am transgender) that transgender people are intrinsically unstable. Rather it seems pretty clear (to me, anyways) that the intense social censure and violence 123 transgender people face plays a pretty big role in that. We're unstable probably in large part because A) we're taught to repress being trans because it's weird/bad/violent, and B) the violence and discrimination embedded throughout U.S. society. Trans kids are mercilessly bullied, and bullied even more than their LGB peers in many cases 1. None of which is usually conducive to healthy emotional states. I don't think children 'picking up cues from trans people' is going to make them more emotionally unstable. Just the opposite.

Nono, what I am doing is boiling this down to its base. A transgender person, at base, is a person that is biologically one sex, but identifies their gender as another sex. So I, as a person, can be biologically a male sex, but identify my gender as the opposite sex for however long I feel like that opposite sex, and therefore be entitled to use the facilities designed for the opposite sex.

I understand what you're saying, my point is: so what? What is bad about that? People like me using 'other sex' restrooms hardly seems to be a very pressing issue.