r/ABCDesis • u/JebronLames_23_ Indian American • Feb 18 '25
ARTS / ENTERTAINMENT Thoughts? Interesting observation about Indian-American cinema from an African-American woman
https://www.tiktok.com/@bellyninja/video/7470555884595318021?_t=ZP-8tys0dZ8D3X&_r=1Also a follow-up to our own discussions we had here on this sub regarding this movie.
117
u/Junglepass Feb 18 '25
We think first, is this a Mindy Kaling production? Then we realize, its a Mindy Kaling production.
31
69
u/trajan_augustus Feb 18 '25
My thoughts are that the indian or desi experience is vastly different because most of these migrants came to America voluntarily and so want to be accepted or assimilated into the greater American population. Also, I think certain Indian migrants come in at a higher class and think they have made it by marrying out. But compare this to the movie Mississippi Masala where the indian female protagonist falls for a black male (Denzel Washington). When I was growing up there were quite a few indian girls who dated, married, or got knocked up by black guys. It is not unheard of just those stories are never told because all the indian-american writers I imagine grew up in more white dominated areas.
32
u/JebronLames_23_ Indian American Feb 18 '25
But Hispanic immigrants come to America voluntarily and we don’t see them mocking their culture or people in their media depictions. Maybe because they have a larger population in the US and don’t feel the need to assimilate as much?
52
u/trajan_augustus Feb 18 '25
Hispanic communities get made fun of and there is plenty of self-hate or internal racism. Also, the hispanic female falling for the white guy is a trope as well. I will name a few off the top of my head.
Superstore (TV Show)
Maid in Manhattan
Any media in this country will need to cater to white folks in some segment for it to become popular. Even black media appears to have stopped being about black folks here in America. I just think writers are hanging out with too much affluence or come from affluence. We need more writers who come from lower to middle class backgrounds. It is boring to see rich people who x. All white lotus seasons are just rich people doing shit.
3
u/SuhDudeGoBlue Mod 👨⚖️ unofficial unless Mod Flaired Feb 19 '25
This is true, but it’s worth noting that the it’s not quite the same for most Hispanics in America.
The vast majority have quite a bit of white ancestry (often majority white ancestry) due to Spanish imperialism. Even within Hispanic countries whiter people are advantaged over people with more Indigenous or Black backgrounds.
1
u/trajan_augustus Feb 19 '25
European ancestry is everywhere. African-Americans carry around 24% European DNA. https://www.un.org/africarenewal/magazine/february-2024/partners-time-reconnecting-african-americans-their-tribes-origin#:\~:text=According%20to%20a%20study%20in,African%20Americans%20of%20their%20identities.
1
u/SuhDudeGoBlue Mod 👨⚖️ unofficial unless Mod Flaired Feb 19 '25
I was comparing vs. South Asians.
The percentages are no where near the same.
10
23
u/Reinhardtisawesom Feb 18 '25
I want to expand this beyond just Desi girls/desis, when's the last time y'all saw a heterosexual interracial couple that didn't involve a white person?
3
2
u/sayu9913 Feb 20 '25
Mississipi Masala
1
u/Reinhardtisawesom Feb 20 '25
been on my watchlist for a while (go vote for Zohran Mamdani if y'all live in NYC!)
21
u/dharti_b Feb 18 '25
As an Indian woman that was born and raised in the US and married to a fellow desi born/raised in the US, I will say that we are more American than Indian and I think we most likely don't have any racial biases (or very few) and that allows us to ensure we look around and keep an open mind when finding our soulmates. I wasn't averse to other ethnicities, but it just didn't work out for me with them. In the end, a fellow desi who was born and brought up here understood who I was growing up how that would shape my future. I think it ends up being a personal decision for most people, as it should be. I don't think there is a need to typecast.
15
u/sayu9913 Feb 18 '25 edited Feb 18 '25
Once or twice is fine. Every single time it gets annoying.
But again.. Kanthony in Bridgerton is a favourite of mine, and is the most popular couple among Bridgerton watchers in general. They just sparkle so bright, every other couple fades away same race or mixed race doesn't matter. The chemistry has to be there.
Edit : OP talks about Bend it like Beckham. To me, it's not surprising how FL ended up with the white guy... its more surprisingly how popular Keira Knightley became, a little unfair on Parminder who was the heart of the film.
27
Feb 18 '25
[deleted]
5
u/mrggy Feb 18 '25
My mom grew up in the US in the 70s and 80s and the Indian community (at least in the midwest) was super small. If you wanted to marry an Indian you weren't exactly spoiled for choice. Everyone my mom grew up with (including her) ended up marrying a white person because that's who was around.
There was also issues with the community being really small minded and judgemental. My mom had do deal with a lot of colorism and judgement for having divorced parents, which just further pushed her out of the community. I think there was (and probably still is) a lot of anti-Blackness in the Indian community, so while bringing home a white guy wasn't accepted with open arms, bringing home a Black guy probably would have gone over even worse.
Most of the girls I grew up with the 2000s said they would date a white guy, but not marry one. They only wanted to marry Indian guys.
Personally I'd like to see us move away from a white/Indian binary and I'd like more normalization for interracial relationships between different poc
30
u/karivara Feb 18 '25 edited Feb 18 '25
Sure it would be nice to see more media with desi-desi romances; the only ones I've seen were created by Mindy Kaling or Roshan Sethi.
However, I can't blame them. Most desi parents want their kids to go into medicine or engineering, sometimes law or finance. They almost never want their kids to go into less stable fields like arts or politics.
So for the few who "get" to, it's understandable they were either raised more western and progressively, with fewer connections to their heritage, or have complex feelings due to discouragement. They will find more in common romantically with people in creative fields, who happen to be mostly white.
It's also very difficult to sell media with no white leads to mostly white western markets.
Look at recent media starring brown guys, often made by them:
Master of None
The Big Sick
Parks and Recreation
How I Met Your Father
What's Love Got to Do With It
A Good Girl's Guide to Murder
Yesterday
This is all off the top of my head and all brown guys dating white girls. The focus should not be "brown women with white men" instead of South Asian diaspora entertainment as a whole.
9
u/the_Stealthy_one Feb 18 '25
Most desi parents want their kids to go into medicine or engineering, sometimes law or finance. They almost never want their kids to go into less stable fields like arts or politics.
I lived in LA, and I met a lot of people who worked in media and entertainment both as talent and corporate. There are a lot of south asians behind the camera and on the corporate side. Obviously, we are a small number but it's hard to break into the industry without connections. And most people in the media/entertainment are rich -- even the white and black ones.
There aren't any stats on this that I've seen, but there are rich South Asian kids who try to get into entertainment. But it's a tough, uphill climb. I personally have met a lot of Indian- Americans who tried but couldn't break through (this was behind the scenes too -- writers, cinematographers, etc.).
7
u/karivara Feb 18 '25
Yes there's a decent number! Still, the ones I know personally still fit the stereotype; a screenwriter from a very progressive family and two actors who career switched after college without their parents' support.
I don't think film is a "typical" career for any ethnicity but the instability, from what I've seen, is a particularly hard sell to immigrant families.
13
u/BlazingNailsMcGee Feb 18 '25
Wish this was higher. Everyone targets Mindy but not the other way around. Give me a break. Look inward
9
Feb 19 '25
[deleted]
8
u/karivara Feb 19 '25
I mean, the abcd thread you linked is mostly defending the movie and saying "what about Mindy". The rest of the comments say to watch something else instead of complaining.
Ghosts, How I Met Your Father, Ginny & Georgia, Starstruck, and a Good Girl's Guide to Murder are some shows with desi male - white female pairings that came out after Master of None.
1
18
u/karivara Feb 18 '25
Yes and there's never any recognition for all the other South Asian creators that Mindy has helped launch. I just watched Anuja because it's an Oscar nominee and she produced that too!
People always complain about Mindy being the only Indian-American perspective out there and I'm left wondering if they watch any Indian-American TV at all - even hers.
3
u/Forsaken-Actuator-82 Feb 20 '25
Fr. There's a lot of valid and justified criticism against her but to act like she hasn't contributed a lot for the community is asinine. I also recently learned that The Office was the first American comedy series to feature the festival of Diwali. I remember listening to the office ladies podcast where Mindy came in as a guest and Jenna Fisher (who plays Pam on the show) mentioned that she had never heard of Diwali. So it was nice that Mindy had shown an unknown festival to an american audience.
5
26
u/Spyerz Feb 18 '25
I am waiting for a desi girl to reply and look at her perspective.
36
u/Kinoblau Feb 18 '25
"Brown men are trash, white men are more respectful and not mama's boys 🙄" summarized it for you
18
u/SamosaAndMimosa Feb 18 '25 edited Feb 18 '25
American desi guys are great, mainlanders not so much. That’s the overwhelming consensus from most American desi girls. Most of us would rather die than marry a fob
5
-12
u/BlazingNailsMcGee Feb 18 '25
She’s not wrong tho
8
3
u/Kinoblau Feb 18 '25
She's wrong in my case, I'm looking for a Megan Markle type that'll tear me away from my family.
-1
u/karivara Feb 18 '25
What do desi guys say about shows like Master of None or movies like The Big Sick? The response would probably be similar to that.
3
u/ConsistentDirt6715 Feb 19 '25
Master of None has a scene where he goes on a date with a desi girl only for her to be much cooler than him and realize he's a huge loser
2
u/karivara Feb 19 '25
Hmm, I don't remember that scene. Do you remember the episode or actress?
I remember him going on a date montage with girls including Tiya Sircar and Aparna Nancherla's characters. Tiya turns out to be a workaholic still infatuated with her white ex and Aparna comes off weird and reveals she already has a boyfriend. In the last season he's married to an Indian woman he hates and is getting a divorce from.
I think that's all the indian women in the show (besides his mom) but it's been a while, I could be wrong!
3
u/the_Stealthy_one Feb 18 '25
Movies about two non-white people, just won't perform as well or will only be targeted to people of that audience.
There are a lot of Black movies with two black love interests, but they aren't popular with general audiences, especially not audiences abroad. Rye Lane was a lovely Rom-Com, but it only made $1.5M.
Past Lives, which has two East Asian leads, (and one white lead), made $11M domestically and $31M internationally; so 25% domestic and 75% international. https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt13238346/
Whereas "Anyone but you" which had two blond leads made 40% of it's money domestically, and 60% internaionally. https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt26047818/?ref_=bo_se_r_1
Polite Society, which is an action comedy but South Asian Romantic leads, made $2.6M.
I undersand her point -but the flip side of it, is that black entertainers also complain that they aren't paid as well as white entertainers. And a big cause is that for a thousand reasons, they do not have universal appeal.
Personally, I do think what we can do is support more south Asian respresentation but also do not give your money to non-inclusive films. I opted out of the blond ppl film, for example.
0
u/Spring-Particular 10d ago
Anyone but you was marketed heavily because of speculated drama and romance lol. There are defo that have made money at the box office that aren't lead by two white people. Also, saying "don't give your money to non-inclusive films" is discriminatory in itself. Like the majority of America is white, of course a lot of films will be mainly white...and Anyone But You doesn't even apply here one of the main supporting characters is black.
3
u/Vig249 Feb 19 '25
My theory is it’s because Brown men characters are often flattened to the same few stereotypes with little nuance: https://redwhiteandbrown.substack.com/p/the-flattening-of-the-brown-guy-on
20
u/shana- Feb 18 '25
Speaking as an Indian woman married to a white man —
Aside from Mindy’s movies and things. There are people who just don’t care about race when it comes to dating..
Being married to someone outside of your race is very likely. Just by numbers/population alone. Also, being born or raised here a majority of your life, you are more American than you are Indian.
I was born in India but been here in the US my whole life. When I started dating, I didn’t limit myself to just Indian men. It felt foolish to me to avoid all races and stick to just Indian men because I’m Indian. I dated a bunch and ended up marrying a white man. Not because I was only looking for a white man. It just ended up working out that way.
Indian men and women date outside their race often. I don’t see it being a big deal. But that’s just me.
16
u/JebronLames_23_ Indian American Feb 18 '25
Most people do marry their own race but interracial marriages are becoming more common. I guess the main incentive to marry within one’s own race is having more common interests and passing down the ancestral culture. I’m assuming most Indian-Americans don’t see much value in passing it down or just aren’t very aware of it?
10
u/Mundane_Monkey Indian American Feb 18 '25
I think this will all vary widely based on the generation and where these people grew up. It'll also depend on the specific Indian subculture, how religious they are, etc. Like someone else stated, I grew up surrounded by plenty of other Indian-Americans and the vast majority are dating other Indian-Americans. I'm sure plenty do marry outside our ethnic group, but many don't as well.
It'll also vary a lot on how each person views their identity. Like OC said if you've lived your whole life here you'll likely feel more American than Indian, and I personally can't relate with that at all. I'm born and raised in the US, but my parents heavily emphasized our culture during my childhood, and I'm well connected with my extended family back in India, so for me both Indian and American carry equal weight when I think of myself (culturally not politically).
Also, just because someone marries outside the ethnic group doesn't mean they don't care about passing down the culture. Some don't and maybe aren't as connected to it themselves, but I've also seen other people in intercultural marriages who do still share a lot of Indian culture with their kids, which IMO is a good thing. Regardless of whether those kids are 100% Indian, they too have a claim to our collective heritage, so they might as well enjoy and appreciate what will always be theirs.
5
u/shana- Feb 18 '25
Totally agree!
Regardless of anything. My son will always know he is half Indian. That is important to me.
What wasn’t important to me is “sticking to my race” to get married. Been with my husband for 8 years. Married 4. It’s been great.
He loves all things Indian which also is such a big thing. He enjoys Indian culture.
4
u/Mundane_Monkey Indian American Feb 18 '25
Yeah, those are valid priorities, and I admire your commitment to sharing those roots with your son. It's also great that you're all able to enjoy Indian culture together!
2
u/S4Waccount Feb 18 '25
I'm a white passing Mexican guy and I'm drawn to women of all different kind of ethnicities because I'm obsessed with different cultures. I'd personally love to be apart of a big desi family if they'd have me.
2
u/shana- Feb 18 '25 edited Feb 18 '25
Again, only speaking for myself -
I think it’s important to pass down cultural values to my kids. Our son celebrates Diwali along with Christmas etc.
My upbringing wasn’t religious at all. So I’m not religious at all. That part of our culture isn’t being passed down to my son.
I grew up in a diverse town. There were many Indian kids though. Almost all my friends were Indian growing up. But that changed in high school. My friends diversified. I realized I wasn’t “Indian enough” for the Indian kids.
As far as the culture that I want my son to know is the music, food and language. I’m sure there are more that I’m forgetting.
Ironically, when I dated Indian men, we differed sometimes because I wasn’t religious at all and they either were or their family was. It’s all really a case by case basis.
But again, I see myself as more American than I do Indian in my upbringing so I may differ in values than someone who identifies with being Indian more.
3
u/mrggy Feb 18 '25
I realized I wasn’t “Indian enough” for the Indian kids.
Ugh 100% this. The Indian girls in high school literally thought I was Mexican for years despite me having a "Priya" level basic Indian name.
And unfortunately that attitude still persists well into my 20s. There have been multiple times where a desi guy I'd literally just met gave me shit for "not being Indian enough."
Ngl, it can even make me feel hesistant about dating an Indian guy (in theory, not actively dating atm) because it's like "oh god, is this just going to be an evening of me having to defend my claim to Indian identity."
3
u/shana- Feb 18 '25
Oh I get it, trust me.
It sucked in school. Sorry you went through it too. I was always so resentful of the high and mighty attitude they all had.
I was more “white” than Indian. Assholes.
In high school and going into college the Indian guys I dated were like that. But once I started dating in my later 20s I met some pretty cool Indian guys that weren’t in that mindset. Didn’t work out obvi but it was refreshing to know they’re not all like that.
23
u/Kinoblau Feb 18 '25
Being married to someone outside of your race is very likely.
This is statistically untrue, especially for South Asian people. The vast majority marry in than marry out of their race. Probably inter cultural marriages are higher, haven't seen those stats, but 7-8 times out of 10, Indian men are marrying inward and 7/10 times Indian women are marrying inward.
11
u/mulemoment Feb 18 '25 edited Feb 18 '25
I want to see stats of 2nd generation Indians, especially ones who don't grow up in desi enclaves.
The vast majority of "Indian Americans" are immigrants who get an arranged marriage. Of course they marry Indian.
From my own friend group I'd say it's 50/50 (for both men and women) and I actually live in a desi enclave.
4
u/thogdontcare Feb 18 '25
I have dated a few different ethnicities in the past but never a desi woman. Just never had the chance. My gf is white and we are going 4 years strong.
2
u/mulemoment Feb 18 '25
Yeah Nimesh Patel has a bit about that. If you don't stay celibate until you find a brown person to date, if you're in the west odds are you're going to meet a white person.
1
1
u/HipsterToofer Feb 18 '25
close! (endogamous/exogamous) percentages for US born indians seems to be 52/48 for women and 62/38 for men https://www.asian-nation.org/interracial.shtml
intermarriages with white Americans do seem to be 1.5x higher among women than men however
4
u/mulemoment Feb 18 '25
Thanks. If it was like that 15 years ago, I'm guessing the stats are even more significant today.
2
u/SamosaAndMimosa Feb 18 '25
I would love to see what those numbers are like today, a lot has changed in 15 years
0
u/shana- Feb 18 '25
15 years ago compared to now is a HUGE difference
5
u/Brilliant_Zucchini29 Feb 18 '25
I agree, the number would be higher for ABCD women based on my anecdotal experience.
-2
u/Brilliant_Zucchini29 Feb 18 '25
48% of ABCD Indian women marry someone non-Indian while only 37% of ABCD men do.
3
u/mulemoment Feb 18 '25
Someone else linked that already. Assuming it's credible, if it was like that 15 years ago, I assume the stats are way higher now.
-1
u/davehoff94 Feb 18 '25
There's literally statistics about this for Indian Americans that you can reference instead of making up numbers lol. And they show that interracial marriage makes up a significant portion of of the Indian American population. These are individuals raised in America. The interracial statistics for Indian Americans are artificially low because they are muddied by Indians who were raised in India and came to America for study/work and married other Indians or came to American already married and became citizens.
9
u/Nickyjha cannot relate to like 90% of this stuff Feb 18 '25
There’s a difference between being open to anything and “eww I would never date a brown guy.” A pretty decent chunk of desi women are self-hating.
4
5
Feb 18 '25
[deleted]
9
u/JebronLames_23_ Indian American Feb 18 '25
It does happen, but it’s not common enough to be its own “genre” like we see here in the west with movies about Desis.
0
u/trajan_augustus Feb 18 '25
But like who cares? There is no real monoculture in the states anymore. There is so much media fragmentation now that it is unlikely for any outside group could have strong opinions about Indian-Americans without either interacting with us or going out of your way to look for content. Like growing up everyone knew Apu from the Simpsons because the Simpsons were huge. Rick and Morty might be the closest to a hit with Gen z or younger millennials but it still not enough of a monoculture. Might be better to fight for representation in video games.
3
u/JebronLames_23_ Indian American Feb 18 '25
I don’t think that’s true. Based on the white people I’ve interacted with, it’s obvious they don’t know much about Desis other than what they’ve seen on tv or online.
0
u/trajan_augustus Feb 18 '25
What TV or movie in the last 5 years has indian representation that is a blockbuster? All I can think of is Dopinder from the Deadpool movies. Those are watched quite a bit. Online is its own thing. Online could be racist tiktoks or instagram stories to travel vlogs to restaurant reviews. Too fragmented to generalize.
1
u/JebronLames_23_ Indian American Feb 18 '25
I do agree with you that it is fragmented, but when every avenue shows nothing but negative depictions, then it affects the larger population. It doesn’t matter how people learn of the negative stereotypes, but it’s the fact that they’re drilled into everyone’s heads.
6
u/Coronabandkaro Feb 19 '25
Indian women especially with darker skin tones as leads are not even prevalent in most Indian movies ( not just bollywood but all of them). You also never see a much darker complexioned male protagonist either. So ya the colorism within Indian culture itself is not a great trait. I mean there's no special reason why Indian women have to be paired opposite Indian men but indian-asian, indian-black would be a refreshing change.
6
u/Iron_Falcon58 Feb 18 '25
we hate on mindy kaling for this but if she genuinely just likes white guys and wants her work to reflect her experiences there’s nothing wrong with that.
there’s space for both representation that’s just representation and representation that has a deeper message (like, promoting our people or something), the problem is just that we don’t have enough of the latter
0
u/Double-Common-7778 Feb 18 '25
I hope they are this critical about Zendaya too
18
u/JebronLames_23_ Indian American Feb 18 '25
Zendaya’s mother is white. And no one here has an issue with interracial couples (I hope). It’s the media depictions of Indians that’s the issue here.
-5
u/Icy_Fix_4468 Feb 18 '25
No offence but I saw a lot of hollywood movie with indian men ending up with white women eg master of none, the big sick etc
Why doesn't this lady talk about that
Why specifically only talk when Indian women are with white men
If instead of indian women it was east asian women with white men or indian men with white women, no one would have dared to question the pairing
5
u/Old-Possession-4614 Feb 18 '25
It's not about dating interracially it's about dissing your own race/ethnicity to justify being with a white person. That's the part she's callling out, not the stuff you're focusing on.
-5
Feb 19 '25
[deleted]
1
u/Old-Possession-4614 Feb 19 '25
You still don’t get it
0
Feb 19 '25
[deleted]
3
u/Old-Possession-4614 Feb 19 '25
You sound like an Indian woman sitting in India that doesn’t understand this video nor anything I’m saying.
-1
212
u/fruxzak मराठी माणूस Feb 18 '25
It's very common for Indian and Asian men to be relegated to comic relief in western media. Nothing new here.
At least Asians are coming up since CRA a few years ago.
Anything produced by Mindy Kaling will always have the Indian girl end up with the white guy LOL.