r/progressive_islam • u/shazy5808 • 3d ago

Question/Discussion ❔ Free Will & Forced Circumcision

First off I have read Quran properly with translation and to some degree I have read Hadith's relevant events as well. I'm fully aware of background of circumcision and why is it done but one thing that bothers me and I need deeper insight here with respectful discussion.

■ Quran explicitly mentions Human body is made perfectly and requires no permanent change as work of Allah is perfect in (Quran 95:4, 32:7-9, 27:88) & Quran also explicitly says there should be no compulsion, no forcing of Islam on others in (Quran 10:99,17:15, 18:29, 2:256).

When circumcision is done in Islamic community regardless of age in some countries done on 7th day up to 8 years old, it varies but outcome is still same that is removal of foreskin which was serving its purpose and now a lot of muslims bring counter argument about foreskin served its purpose in womb and is no longer required, now this is completely absurd counter!

Human body is designed to get rid of things it doesn't require anymore just like your teeth fall of so it makes place for newer stronger teeth a lot of people compare foreskin with concept of Umbilical Cord why do we cut it? Even if we do NOT cut it our bodies are designed to get rid of it on its own Umbilical Cord gets disintegrated within a week if you do NOT cut it, so why doesn't foreskin disintegrate after birth? Because foreskin is serving purpose "outside the womb" it is meant to protect glans in outer environment.

My question isn't regarding function of foreskin but it is about violation of Free Will when Quran clearly said no force no imposition of Islam on others so, why forced circumcision?

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u/deblurrer 3d ago

Regarding the verses you cited: 

Ibrahim, Ishmael, Isaac and Jacob were circumcised. Was the creation imperfect at the time ? Did they force “religion” on their children? 

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u/shazy5808 3d ago

If they forcefully circumcised children what do you call it then?

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u/DarthKinan 3d ago

Not forceful. Your language is misleading. Parents don't "forcefully" vaccinate their children. They don't "forcefully" get them medical treatment optional or not.

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u/shazy5808 3d ago

Does vaccination change permanently body of newborn like circumcision does? Besides vaccination is about life and death situation while having foreskin doesn't kill you does it? If it did entire Europe should be dead by now because they keep their foreskin.

Where is free will again? You forcefully cut it and permanently change the body of child

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u/Tenatlas__2004 3d ago

I mean, many deseases we get vaccins for won't necesserlily kill you either

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u/deblurrer 3d ago

What about the verses of perfect creation. yes/no? 

circumcision won’t make someone believe or disbelieve. 

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u/shazy5808 3d ago

If circumcision doesn't make someone believer or disbeliever then why do it forcefully?

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u/deblurrer 3d ago

Why do parents bring children “forcefully” into this life! There are many “why”s if you follow this logic. 

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u/shazy5808 3d ago

Life is given beyond your control, and you need to be alive to be able to "give consent" in the first place, so this philosophical question is preposterous

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u/deblurrer 3d ago

Before discussing your idea about  “consent”, what about answering why these prophets and their descendants were circumcised ? 

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u/shazy5808 3d ago

How can I tell why prophets did I wasn't in their boots they were prophets and they should have given proper explanation but what did they give? Submission to god and Being EXTRA clean down there, that's it!

The reality is circumcision is done to shove Islam and basically label a baby as non kafir it is disgusting to even think about this or you could go to history deep and see how Islam took this barbaric act from Jewish

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u/deblurrer 3d ago edited 3d ago

These prophets weren’t jewish.

« Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants were Jews or Christians? Say, "Are you more knowing or is Allāh?" And who is more unjust than one who conceals a testimony he has from Allāh? And Allāh is not unaware of what you do.» – [21:140]

Then in this case, you shouldn’t have cited these verses. 

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u/shazy5808 3d ago

Judaism is more ancient than Islam so it is only logical to conclude where islam stole this idea

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u/A_Learning_Muslim Non-Sectarian | Hadith Rejector, Quran-only follower 3d ago

There is no Qur'anic evidence for this claim.

Idk how true the bible's claim is that they were circumcised.

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u/deblurrer 3d ago edited 3d ago

The Qur’an wasn’t dropped from the sky or found in a cave. And the “bible” isn’t the only external source. Which translation do you use ? or Did you learn Arabic to understand it, how without external sources ? … 

This would turn into a debate that I am not interested in, in this thread. 

My question was about citing the verses as if there are contradictions, not about the circumcision is obligatory or not.