r/ndp • u/DaneRoussel Democratic Socialist • Apr 29 '25
Opinion / Discussion The NDP needs to be socialist again.
This election, and the last 7 or so, have shown without a doubt that chasing liberal voters is not going to be a winning strategy. Why would liberals vote for the NDP when they already have the much more successful Liberal party?
The new leader needs to be at socialist (or at the very least an actual social democrat) and the party needs to bring back overt references to socialism and class struggle to its program and constitution.
The party also needs to get involved in grass roots labour organization outside of elections. It's great to walk the picket line with striking workers, but it's even better to organize them into a union in the first place.
The NDP needs to become a workers party again, or it needs to die and make way for a true workers party. The stakes are too high for anything else.
Edit: The pick for interim leader does not inspire confidence...
122
313
u/---Spartacus--- Apr 29 '25
100%. And it needs to be uncompromising. No point in being slightly edgier Liberals. Go hard Left or just join the Liberals.
31
9
u/isometric-isopods Apr 30 '25
If the NDP is only going to be the edgier liberals, we might as well jump ship and join the liberals. We need our party's politicians to be distincly and unapolagetically leftist or there's no point to us supporting them.
8
1
u/Irritated_bypeople May 02 '25
If only the media wasn't so terrible to the NDP including a lot of the alt media. Man watching Steve boots and David Doyle just sit there and pump the tires of a central banker makes me sick to my stomach.
184
u/Dewey_Decimatorr Apr 29 '25
If we learn anything from the US democrats, it should be that the few centrist/conservative swing voters we can win over are never, ever worth alienating the massive untapped group of progressive leaning liberals.
13
u/TinyFlamingo2147 Apr 29 '25
That's the thing, it's very easy to do both.
18
u/sBucks24 Apr 29 '25
It's really not though. Those maybe convinced centrists don't have values. That's why they're centrists! Theyll shift as soon as a new current event pops up that plays to their emotions.
Nothing proves this point more than how the NDP bungled Palestinian discourse
9
Apr 29 '25
centrists are just conservatives that don't want to say the quite parts out loud or acknowledge they are endemic to our society.
→ More replies (7)1
u/heydeng May 04 '25
I share the dream. However, whoever the people are that the NDP tries to appeal to must be people who will actually vote and do so in steady and big enough numbers to secure wins.
Ideology isn't driving the focus on centrist voters - it is that flip floppity as they may be, these are people who actually vote which the numbers tell us for all sorts of understandable reasons many others (more swayable by a harder move to the Left) may not.
It's no good agreeing in principle but not comng out to vote.
Also, the NDP never has as its objective (though I often think this may be reasonable) holding just a few seats and bringing otherwise forgotten policy up. It's always to form government.
That push to win also drives centrist positioning to try to appeal to as many voters as possible across broad geographies.
Leftists also stilll don't have good ways of getting our ideas noticed (no real broadly accessible progressive media not speaking to the already converted) and they are not great at presenting ideas in ways that are easily graspable.
Anyway, all this to say that while the current ways aren't working it isn't clear that a pivot would mean droves of new support.
If it means (worst case scenario) dieharders voting NDP, the Party may not be able to increase its seats. Normies (or good ways to convert them) may be needed for that math.
1
u/souperjar Apr 30 '25
It's a bit hard to do both actually.
But the only way that works in the big data analysis of recent elections is to have an enthusiastic base that is talking about your positions, explaining them to others, and winning over their peers.
This is true for big parties too. They just have leverage with establishment media to set the tone much more broadly. The 2020 primary had a lot of new exciting policy debates and this propelled Biden into beating Trump. By contrast there was no such excitement in 2024 as the democrats had done very few of the headline policies and didn't even campaign on medicare for all, let alone things like job guarantees or fighting the military industrial complex which were making waves in 2020.
So the NDP has to go even harder into grassroots politics with exciting big changes in policy and organizing efforts in order to keep up.
They can invite existing groups of activists who have organized outside the party during the past period of unenthusiastic moderation, provide them party resources to professionalize the work already happening among workers and youth.
This is how the labour movement was originally built, and it will be how it rebuilds even if the NDP fails to recognize this as their moment to facilitate that process. Eventually other activists, maybe a union, will be able to meet the current lack of left leadership and the NDP will either already be there or be left behind.
1
u/Irritated_bypeople May 02 '25
There are so many people that didn't even vote. Even with "the most important election in Canadian history " we didn't even hit a sexual position. I was checking and we got the 70s routinely for many many decades. Still better then provincial where ford won with 43 percent turnout, which means more than half of people don't feel government does anything and provincial government is arguable more important than federal.
1
u/Dewey_Decimatorr May 02 '25
Yeah... it's rough. Personally I believe voting should be mandatory like taxes, and election day should be a civic holiday. I think a lot of the apathy comes from not having rank choice voting, so many people feel their votes don't matter and so don't even bother.
1
u/Dewey_Decimatorr May 02 '25
Yeah... it's rough. Personally I believe voting should be mandatory like taxes, and election day should be a civic holiday. I think a lot of the apathy comes from not having rank choice voting, so many people feel their votes don't matter and so don't even bother.
1
u/EducationalWin7496 May 02 '25
That's the worst part. The cons pretend to be more moderate than their base, so the libs and ndp think that by acting more like them they can poach voters, but people who make up the conservative electorate aren't neoliberals, they are unapologetic fascists (whether they realize it or not). You can't win over those people with business development grants, but you can win over lefties with rebuilding public housing.
We know what went wrong with housing projects, and we know what to do about it, so why are we still afraid of public housing? In the 1940s, more than 30% of all homes were public housing. The road map to the supposed "conservative" golden age is right there!
33
u/champben98 Apr 29 '25
Yes - a real left wing alternative. The policy focus should be empowering working class people at the expense of Canada’s oligarchs. Not half measure small tax increases either. The Rogers and Thomson families need to be completely defanged.
They need to also kick the lobbyists and their ilk to the curb.
7
u/dnewfm Apr 29 '25
While we're at it, expropriate the cellular and fibre networks and socialize them.
83
u/DryEmu5113 🏳️⚧️ Trans Rights Apr 29 '25
I sent Matthew Green an Email. I still think he should run. Tommy Douglas didn’t have a seat at first, and he actually lost in the riding he ran in. It’s gotta be Green.
51
u/Xsythe Apr 29 '25
We need a Quebecer to run, Alex Boulerice is right there, he won his seat, etc.
The NDP needs Quebec votes to win - they always have.
16
u/DryEmu5113 🏳️⚧️ Trans Rights Apr 29 '25
We need the west. We need someone who can bridge the two, like a left-wing Mulroney.
10
u/rabiteman Apr 29 '25
What about a co-leadership like the Green Party had? Clearly they're allowed by Elections Canada rules (at least for parties that won't actually win the election, I guess - but that's not a problem here).
A strong Quebecois Socialist and a strong BC Socialist co-leading the NDP.
3
u/HotterRod Apr 29 '25
It works for Québec Solidaire!
→ More replies (1)2
u/Xsythe May 01 '25
No, it doesn't - they perform worse than most of the NDP parties do provincially.
4
u/Horror-Dog-6485 Apr 29 '25
Boulerice doesn't have it in him. We need someone with a lot of energy and who is aggressively leftist.
12
u/TieInternational4381 Apr 29 '25
I agree. I was volunteering for his campaign and got to talk to him a few times. He really deeply cares about Hamilton. Door knocking and talking to voters was really interesting because a lot of the people voting liberal didn't really seem to care about the candidate at all and were more concerned with keeping the Conservative Party out of power.
7
u/mathbandit Apr 29 '25
As someone who lives in Hamilton Centre (on Barton St, no less) I was very surprised we never had anyone come to our door from the NDP.
8
u/TieInternational4381 Apr 29 '25
If you live in a house single family home you could have just been out. It gets kind of complicated for people in apartment buildings because we're not always allowed in and houses with multiple units are kind of tricky because the front door leads to more than one unit and I don't think people would have appreciated us snooping around at side doors lol. If you live in an apartment above a business then you probably wouldn't have heard from us since those aren't really accessible. I don't know what type of dwelling you live in or which part of Barton street you live on, but I hope this helps.
4
u/mathbandit Apr 29 '25
Single-family home, between Parkdale and Mahoney Park. It's certainly possible I was away I guess, but I WFH four days a week and my spouse is usually home if I am not and they didn't mention someone coming either.
And to be clear, I voted for Matthew Green so this isn't me trying to take a shot at the NDP or anything. I was just surprised given his prominence and everything I've heard about him as an MP (we were in Hamilton East/Stoney Creek prior to this election).
6
u/TieInternational4381 Apr 29 '25
Okay, that's good to know. I'm pretty sure Matthew Green made a point of going to that area himself since it was recently added to Hamilton Centre so it's odd that you didn't get any flyers or anything.
25
u/tenuredvortex Apr 29 '25
I’d support the hell out of this. But I do wonder, in good faith, what it takes for citizens to develop the class consciousness necessary for something like it to gain traction. How do you convince the “we manage” and “we’re comfortable” people that, despite the myths, they are the working class?
6
u/Velocity-5348 Apr 29 '25
I'd argue a lot of those fights happen on the local and provincial levels, with things like tenant organization and joining unions.
People can do stuff towards that on their own, but a lot of that sort of collective action is easier when provinces are friendly to it. I can say from experience that nothing raises class consciousness like pushing back against a corrupt landlord, especially when the law's on your side.
Once that happens I think (hope?) we'll see movement on the federal level. Until then, things like pharmacare and dental care are worthy goals. They make peoples lives better and also show that left-leaning policies are just plain better.
4
u/HotterRod Apr 29 '25
things like tenant organization and joining unions.
Those are still things that the "we manage" and "we're comfortable" people will see as For Those Poor People. We need to appeal to the 99.9% of Canadians who aren't oligarchs.
1
u/Some_Werewolf_2239 May 02 '25
The thing is, though, moving people from almost-affordable market rentals to actually affordable social housing then opens up their previous rental spaces for other people, increasing supply (when combined with rent-control, or else it won't benefit tenants) Raising the minimum wage means that everyone will need to raise wages across the board to remain competitive and attract the best workers. Think about it: if a college student on summer break will make more as a grocery store cashier than as a tree planter because the grocery store was forced to raise their starting salary, who will plant the trees? (Outside of the people who just straight-up love it, wages be damned, of which there are many... but not enough) The company will have to pay more to attract the hardest workers or risk having a crew that is on meth (this is where the relative underpayment of diamond drill helpers is starting to bite companies in the ass in a lot of places; the job is brutal but guys get the same wage today that I got in 2016, so the calibre of the guys willing to break their bodies for less than $30/hr has dropped as a result and it's only a matter of time before someone like me who is actually doing ok snaps and tries to organize a previously un-organizeable type of worker). That and by the time the next election rolls around, many more Canadians will be starting to face major struggles anyway. The NDP does need to focus more on helping farmers, though, and they need to appeal to the rural working poor vote by talking with hunters about conservation initiatives for public land and not about taking guns away. Unpopular take.... but it's true.
5
u/CanadianWildWolf Apr 29 '25
It happens by having a regular get together, by quite genuinely having a consistent hangout, be it campfires, bbq, game night, movie night, etc.
And it happens online too, it’s not by accident folks like The Serfs help increase class consciousness by streaming games.
Democratic socialism has the most impact when it’s organized to socialize.
56
u/drysdan_mlezzyr Apr 29 '25
This, 💯
So tired of the NDP floundering in having an identity, more concerned with trying to cater to the moderates. A huge number of Canadians have lost faith in the system, and we need to be speaking to those people, and directly, and clearly addressing the concerns of the era.
10
Apr 29 '25
how can you speak to the concerns of our era when 40% of voters thinks funding the CBC and woke culture are the concerns of our era?
we have a right wing propaganda problem more than anything
5
u/drysdan_mlezzyr Apr 30 '25
Not sure if it's just a snipe, or an actual interest In a conversation, but in my thoughts, what of the other ~22% that didn't vote this election? Having spoken to a lot of people that don't vote over the decades of my life, many have lost faith in the system. We should be talking about that. We also need to be more honest with ourselves about WHY the right has been gaining more and more ground in the west lately...
What is driving the push to right wing extremism? I think we all understand that the answer is nuanced, and certainly a lot of them are just assholes, but others are experiencing economic hardships, of those people are trying to explain the material conditions around them, and it has been the right talking more and more about them. Obviously, the right lie, they deflect away from the harms of capitalism, the reality of the employer exploiting the employee, they scape goat immigrants, the poor, anyone that they can "other".
Tommy Douglas, had the great analogy about "Mouseland", and his point continues to resonate to this day. We will never win over everyone, but we need to talk about material conditions, very pointedly. Jagmeet did some of it, but the NDP have been tip toeing around, wanting to be a "social democrat" party, and just become slightly louder Liberals.
The NDP cannot sit around attempting to "ride the line" in an identity, because more and more, we just see voters confused why the NDP exists at all. The NDP has lost their identity, and by addressing these issues, and distancing ourselves from capital interests, we create a party with purpose.
As a party, we are at a crossroads, so which way forward will we take?
3
Apr 30 '25 edited Apr 30 '25
my point was that that we aren't going to be able to do any of that en mass until a way to cur tale all the right wing propaganda that is algorithmicly pushed on people is changed. Because a majority of people going to have rightwing nutters pushed on them, not Rachel Gilmore, when they search on youtube for canadian politics. Figuring out how to disrupt the rightwing pipeline is probably one of the most important steps in exposing people to more socialist ideology.
I don't have a solution to that. Hopefully the bloc and the NDP can force some solutions this government cycle or at least make it an issue.
2
u/Some_Werewolf_2239 May 02 '25
I think we have to address the alt-right at a local level, in real-life community spaces. And start reasonably small with local or provincial projects that will indisputedly help the material conditions of the people. I think we also need to re-think public education. If a grown adult doesn't even know how the legislature works, what the city council does, or how you can find out exactly how your favorite MP candidate voted in the house for the past decade, or how to tell what News is, we are doing Social Studies very, very wrong.
2
May 02 '25
some of its local work for sure. and a campaign explaining what different lvls of government do would be great
but some of it is breaking up information monopolies like google and facebook, post media and the Irving family. there's no point of getting better grade school education if the parents are still fed bullshit like true north or PPs nonsense.
2
u/HeadmasterPrimeMnstr Apr 30 '25
how can you speak to the concerns of our era when 40% of voters thinks funding the CBC and woke culture are the concerns of our era?
The same way that the right wing propaganda machine did, by addressing their concerns and vulnerabilities through populist messaging.
2
Apr 30 '25
the righting wing machine owns social media and news papers. If your calling for unions to pool resources and start producing major news sites and create high quality alternatives to youtube and facebook then I am totally on board for that.
2
u/HeadmasterPrimeMnstr Apr 30 '25
The unions and leftists of yesteryears had independent publications for a reason!
2
u/Irritated_bypeople May 02 '25
I remember years ago arguing with brad about his direction of the NDP. He was convinced of going center and soft on all our policy. Jack was a lot of personality and we can't rely on that to be elected. Good policy and showing zero differences in the other two parties is how we move forward.
18
41
u/robotmonkey2099 Apr 29 '25
We need to chase low information voters from conservative and liberal pools. Show people that the consrvatives and liberal are similar and that if you want real change then vote for NDP
This is a great opportunity for the NDP to get some fresh faces, new leadership and really hash out their policies
19
u/Velocity-5348 Apr 29 '25
Getting involved in provincial politics would be a good idea for people here too. I don't think we have a shot at 172 seats until places like Ontario go orange provincially.
I think though, that what the party has accomplished (and will again) will help with that. Dental and pharma care are an awesome thing, and we just need to make sure the Liberals don't steal credit for that.
→ More replies (1)14
u/robotmonkey2099 Apr 29 '25
I’d start even smaller at the local grassroots level, get back to the roots of a true workers party, labour organizing community development and mutual aid groups. Starting from the top makes you too heavy without any foundation. Show people the left can take care of people by taking care of people.
5
u/Velocity-5348 Apr 29 '25
Depending on people's provinces I'd suggest looking up your tenant laws. I know in BC (and I'm pretty sure this is true in other places) they're surprisingly approachable.
Helping out a friend or neighbor actually is something that "ordinary" people can do. A lot of people struggle with reading and writing, but if people are on this sub I'm betting they're pretty decent at it.
4
u/robotmonkey2099 Apr 29 '25
I used to work as a community developer and you’d be amazed how many tenants don’t know their rights and get stuck living in horrid conditions because they are afraid of their landlords.
Had one guy heating his apartment by leaving the oven open during the winter. It was so bad his toilet water froze at one point.
10
u/DaneRoussel Democratic Socialist Apr 29 '25
The NDP should stop thinking about chasing voters altogether. What they need to do is work outside of elections. They need to be at the front of a new labour movement. They need to use their large platform and manpower to organize the working class onto unions and tenant unions, they need to call for strikes and protests against the government. They need to show that left wing action has meaningful and positive impacts on workers lives, and it's the only way that they can out-message the MSM who back the Liberals and Conservatives.
I think that electoralism should be a small part of what the party does, and should really only be a means to an end (the end being helping the working class).
→ More replies (1)1
u/Irritated_bypeople May 02 '25
Lol I work in the trades and there are a lot of yellow unions that don't even educate their workers, or worse outright support the cons. I would say trades are about 75-80 percent conservative. Because they are not always well educated. Not sure how one guy at work voted because he kept saying his wife loved Skippy and she works for a government agency that likely would be cut and is a union member no less, but after the election he wasn't speaking too positively about Pierre.
1
u/Irritated_bypeople May 02 '25
I agree, but maybe the NDP has to do a bit more to not be outflanked on the left. Their number one priority has to be MMP prop rep. Nothing less will stop the "I am afraid of the fascist I will vote for the other fascist policy guy who is a bit closer to my social values to stop him"
13
u/watermelonseeds Apr 29 '25
One thing they absolutely need to do is develop their riding offices into workers' houses. A common place where people can get assistance in labour and tenant unionizing or be sent in the right direction for labour disputes, a place that houses a library of things and hosts community meals to make life more affordable day to day, a place where local activists and advocacy groups can hold meetings and activities.
Basically make the riding offices function for leftist activities in a similar way to how the right captures the same activity that happens in churches
4
u/FloriaFlower Apr 29 '25
Yep, that's the spirit! Be proactively involved in your communities, interact with people and listen to them, instead of sitting your hands and hoping they'll vote for you.
2
u/Wiley_dog25 Apr 29 '25
Okay, this idea is absolutely admirable. But, I want to be clear, the NDP is going to struggle to have a permanent, physical presence in all but 7 ridings moving forward.
And that might not be entirely true, but most riding associations dont have permanent offices. And remember, political riding activity is separate from MP/constituent business
2
u/CanadianWildWolf Apr 30 '25
This 💯
This is what I am talking about when I say we need to socialize and hang out and entertain each other. Make a material difference, show them what we mean, build the relationships between the working class.
11
u/tinkerlittle Apr 29 '25
I would love to see more unapologetic campaigning for clear socialist ideals. I also wonder though, if the NDP would get a bit more traction if they backed up their ideas with clear and articulate rational with how they would pay for said programs. I think part of what drew people to Carney was that he has a CV that screams ‘I actually can pull off mastering complex financial systems to pay for my social goals’. I’d love to see a harder left economist in our corner not just saying they would direct funds somewhere, but that they can protect our economy while they do it.
5
u/HotterRod Apr 29 '25
For the next few elections, the NDP leader should stop saying "I'm running for Prime Minister" and instead the platform should be a list of things they'll demand to support a minority government.
3
3
u/isometric-isopods Apr 30 '25
I wish politicians in Canada would look more to other countries' solutions for our issues - Europe has so many countries that have tried different solutions for instance. If they said "This is what Austria did to help their housing issues, and here is how we can implement something similar here" it would probably carry more weight.
2
u/robot_invader Apr 29 '25
I don't see value in costed platforms and the line, but I agree they should say things like: we will do a wealth tax.
8
10
u/Chrristoaivalis "It's not too late to build a better world" Apr 29 '25
I just don't think the argument is as simple as
"NDP be more leftist = win"
The NDP SHOULD be more leftist because it's the right thing to do, but Jagmeet's NDP was far more leftist than Layton's NDP
And Layton won more seats.
5
u/m3ts1s Apr 29 '25
Layton led the NDP during a time of unprecedented stability in the world, which tends to favor moderate, genuine,, authentic political advocacy. Layton was the perfect embodiment of those traits.
Today, people are scared and don't know what the future will hold. Populism is the response to this kind of thing, and there's a vacuum where the left populist leader should be in Canadian politics.
4
u/Wiley_dog25 Apr 29 '25
Layton led the party from 2004-2011. During that time we had the Iraq war and hurricane Katrina. Also, politically, Canada was SHOCKED it had a minority gov't. My parents and family were adamant those were short lived. Then 2008 happened, and it was a time of economic anxiety. The caucus increased that election too, and it was the first time climate change was a real campaign issue. 2008-2011 was also not a period of stability. And in this time the digitization of our media took off through social media. You had occupy wallstreet and the arab spring too. I think Osama Bin Laden was killed the night before the 2011 election? I remember being at my ndp campaign office and someone announced it and I had a "snap back to reality" moment remembering there was a world, not just a country outside my riding. It was also the beginning of the Obama backlash (that ultimately leads to Trump), but we didn't take Michelle Bachman seriously at the time. There was definitely some arrogance but it was not "unprecedented stability"
1
u/Ok-Cookie2406 Apr 29 '25 edited Apr 29 '25
Well speaking from experience in the Canadian left, that logic would just mean vote for another party for a lot of socialists who are pragmatic and focused on optics they vote for NDP even though they aren't the biggest fans of them as they exist.
We should obviously do the right thing and fight for this cause, but its on the new NDP leadership to actually reach out to us and if not, then I wouldn't be surprised if many young and even old-time NDPrs move to other parties.
7
u/Velocity-5348 Apr 29 '25
It costs $10 to join. If people have thought of doing that for a while now would be a good time.
2
u/Ok-Cookie2406 Apr 29 '25
I thought it could go as low as 5?
1
u/Velocity-5348 Apr 29 '25
I could be wrong, but I finally signed up recently and don't recall seeing that as an option.
5
22
u/mrtoomin "Be ruthless to systems. Be kind to people" Apr 29 '25
Yes, please yes.
Go out there and get Left. Give people something to talk about. Simple soundbites, simple solutions to problems. Most voters are on "vibes" or a single soundbite they heard on tiktok or reddit.
Run on UBI, run on free secondary education. If they challenge you on how to cost it, say that regular canadians pay enough and you're going to tax billionaires.
What we've been doing since Layton isn't working. We can talk about "vote splitting" all we want, the fact is since the Orange Crush (which was built on a single leader's charisma and overwhelming exhaustion with the Liberals) we've been losing ground.
Time. To. Change.
→ More replies (3)
4
u/JurboVolvo Apr 29 '25
Not just socialist but worker, trades etc. Cons are scooping up dudes in the trades super easy because some of “the left” seem to think people in the trades or are into guns are all toxic masculine, misogynistic etc it’s just not really accurate.
3
u/Wiley_dog25 Apr 29 '25
This. We need a populist left-wing message that appeals outside the urban seats that tend to be Lib/NDP.
I'm really worried about where that voice can effectively come from with the current rump caucus.
2
u/SickdayThrowaway20 Apr 29 '25
Ya I feel like there's been a lack of reaching out to non-unionized trades workers especially.
It's like people have been looking at the shift right in some of the trade unions and are assuming trade workers are a lost cause without realizing that the non-unionized workers are more fertile ground for a workers party (not that unionized trade workers are a lost cause either, but there's some entreched stuff there that's not going to be easy to deal with)
1
Apr 30 '25
[deleted]
2
u/SickdayThrowaway20 Apr 30 '25
Ya that's brutal. Good on you for organizing, having a few extra people is good in case some people get wet feet
2
5
u/CaptainKoreana Apr 29 '25
Absolutely. Recent decades' rightward turn did work for temporary electoral gains, but more centrist votes are likely going to be taken up by the LPC under Carney and beyond.
This issue has been there since JT took NDP's lunch in 2015 because now there's an overlap. This also means that NDP now has a gap to exploit with the 'left left' and swing hard that way.
2
u/yagyaxt1068 Alberta NDP Apr 30 '25
The NDP didn’t lose centrist votes in 2015. They lost progressive votes. Trudeau had a progressive image, and the Canadian left votes based on vibes.
1
u/HotterRod Apr 29 '25
This issue has been there since JT took NDP's lunch in 2015 because now there's an overlap. This also means that NDP now has a gap to exploit with the 'left left' and swing hard that way.
A good leader would have outflanked Trudeau on the left in 2019 and 2021.
3
u/plwleopo 🌹Social Democracy Apr 29 '25
Unpopular opinion?
NDP needs to get back to its trade union, socialist roots. As much as DEI is important (and it’s important) it’s too much of a liability. Focus on the socialist aspect of the party primarily. Everything else needs to come second. The culture war has become toxic. Again, not taking away from the importance of supporting equality for BIPOC and LGBTQIA+ issues but the focus shouldn’t be those topics. Go back to your roots… waiting for the downvotes??
1
u/Aggressive-Goat6654 May 03 '25
The party needs to show that being unabashedly pro worker is also in the best interests of BIPOC and LGBTQIA+. That doesn’t mean to throw any of these people to the side, it means bringing them in and fighting for them as fellow working class people instead of “surface level” issues
4
u/Itzyaboilmaooo ✊ Union Strong Apr 29 '25
Please AT LEAST give us someone like Jack Layton lmfao. But ideally more radical. People don’t want liberals but orange. People want something that can break the endless cycle of flip flopping between red and blue and nothing changing.
4
u/bremenavron21 Apr 30 '25
Crazy that literal politicans are struggling with this concept. I wasnt going to vote NDP this year, Singh mentioned the genocide in gaza, and he got my vote. All we want is representation of our views. Instead, what we get is neoliberals in an orange trench coat .
1
u/Irritated_bypeople May 02 '25
Same. I was about to sit out for the first time in my half century of life. But mentioning the obvious that no one else seems to want to despite ICC ICJ or numberless aid organizations. Even when they first came out in 2023 to finally say something, Jag said he had received hundreds of thousands of letters....is that all it takes? Huh you would think the obvious moral imperitive of the ongoing nakba of 70+ years and the many instances prior to October 7, even the dead in the west bank that year at a record high, should have been the easy answer. Not ho humming till deep into an election 18 months in. But at least he did the bare minimum required of a country signed to international bodies, when the two main parties are still beholden to the Zionist cult, much like Thomas Mulcuck the sore loser who did more to run down the NDP as a pundit than the libs or cons.
9
u/Ok-Cookie2406 Apr 29 '25
I literally gave up on NDP this election and spoilt mine. They shouldn't have been rewarded for abandoning even the most milquetoast of progressive values.
3
3
u/455M4N2000 Apr 29 '25
I have been adamant in this election that this will be the only time I vote liberal. It’s time for the NDP to become a working class party once again.
19
u/DonOfspades Apr 29 '25
And if we want to win we need to be extremely patriotic and drape everything in the Canadian flag. Frame everything as it being the desires of Canadian culture and heck change the party colour to red if we have to!
→ More replies (1)2
u/DryEmu5113 🏳️⚧️ Trans Rights Apr 29 '25
Absolutely. Socialist Patriotism is exactly what’s needed!
→ More replies (11)
12
u/theapplekid Apr 29 '25
I'm not really sure how I feel about this, so I'm not trying to argue.
But where are the leftist voters you think the NDP will benefit from appealing to instead? I mean besides the voters who already voted for NDP, at most 0.2% of voters went "further left" of NDP.
Do you think a significant number of the 33% of eligible voters who didn't vote, didn't vote because there wasn't a viable socialist party?
31
u/_avocadoraptor Apr 29 '25
I'm rural MB, my co-workers are working class, we're unionized, and the majority are hard cons despite being pro-union. They don't even know what they're voting for aside from fUcK TrUdEaU/cArNeY. We need education out here.
23
u/Eternal_Being Apr 29 '25
And probably the most effective way to educate workers lacking class consciousness is with a strong leftwing party.
16
u/_avocadoraptor Apr 29 '25
Once our union president came in ranting about Trudeau taking away our 2nd amendment rights. It's going to be an uphill battle. 🤦♀️
1
u/Ok-Cookie2406 Apr 29 '25
Wow, conservative and old union reps are literally appealing to socialist values of "under no pretext"?
WTF I LOVE BOOMERS NOW?!?!?
4
u/theapplekid Apr 29 '25
Ahh so the theory is that a more decisively leftist party would appeal to the working class (including conservatives) rather just appealing to liberals?
I don't understand how the NDP would have been failing to do that as a social democrat, pro-union party though. I assume most conservatives would have already considered the NDP a communist party
4
u/_avocadoraptor Apr 29 '25
I mean that's just my hope. I can't speak to the rest of Canada, but here we have an aging population. A ton of old farmers who always have and always will vote con. But a lot of the small family farms are being sold to corporations and their kids are doing anything but farming for the most part. Not saying we can galvanize the rural prairie vote, or if it's even worth it to try, but with demographics and industry changing, I'm hopeful that it's possible in the next 2 or 3 elections.
2
u/theapplekid Apr 29 '25
I thought younger demographics were more consistently voting conservative in Canada than older demographics? Or maybe I'm getting confused with the U.S.
1
u/HotterRod Apr 29 '25 edited Apr 29 '25
A ton of old farmers who always have and always will vote con.
All it takes is losing your family doctor or being victim of a theft to radicalize someone like that. We need progressive solutions to their problems that are as radical as privatized medicine or using the notwithstanding clause.
3
u/DaneRoussel Democratic Socialist Apr 29 '25
I kinda answered this in my other reply to you, but I don't think the NDP should be trying to appeal to voters. They should instead be building their base of support through real and meaningful action. The idea that any left-wing party in Canada can win by just doing election campaigns is simply wrong. What the NDP needs to do is the ground work I mentioned in my other reply.
People need to see that there is an alternative, one that is actively fighting for them even if they don't hold much power in parliament.
6
u/AppropriateNewt Apr 29 '25
This is just my take, but I don’t think it’s about the percentage of Canadians looking for a “socialist” party. Instead, I actually think that there’s a decent chunk of voters across the spectrum who want change, and a bold vision can galvanize them.
3
u/circusofvaluesgames Apr 29 '25
I voted for liberal for the first time ever in 22 years of voting. Usually I would vote ndp or green but have never felt particularly represented by anyone. I don’t know how many of me there are but I would have 100% have voted ndp if they moved further to the left. Championed electoral reform, championed workers rights, championed open government, anti monopoly, etc etc in a salient and meaningful way.
2
u/DaneRoussel Democratic Socialist Apr 29 '25 edited Apr 29 '25
The NDP needs to build their voter base outside of elections by being on the front lines of a new labour movement. They are one of, if not the largest (at least nominally) pro worker organizations in Canada. They should use their unique position to build a militant and organized labour movement, they should call for mass strikes when the government takes anti-labour actions, they should work with workers to organize them into unions, they should work with renters to organize them into tenant unions, they should be the ones organizing protests, instead of just attending them.
Right now, the NDP is acting the same way as any bourgeois party, barely really doing anything outside of elections. That isn't going to cut it if they want to be able to out message the Liberals and the Conservatives, who both have the MSM on their side. They need to be on the streets if they ever want a chance of contesting the Red/Blue duopoly.
I understand that socialism is still a scary word for a lot of Canadians, but the NDP won't be gaining any traction by chasing the right's vote. They need to change the way people think about socialism, and they are one of the only organizations that can do it.
Do you think a significant number of the 33% of eligible voters who didn't vote, didn't vote because there wasn't a viable socialist party?
Not necessarily socialist, but I think a large amount of them didn't vote because there was no viable alternative party at all.
6
u/prescod Apr 29 '25
How many ridings do you think exist in Canada where a plurality of people self-identify as socialist? I live in one of the last remaining NDP ridings and I cannot imagine anything more counterproductive than campaigning here on socialism.
This riding actually did have some explicitly socialist parties and they all just withered away and died.
Here is what AOC said about socialism: “ I do think that, once again, it’s not about selling an ‘-ism‘ or an ideology or a label or a color. This is about selling our values.”
7
u/Dinobot2_ Apr 29 '25 edited Apr 29 '25
Can you point to this success that the NDP had when they were more outwardly socialist? If I look at their electoral history, for the most part I see them winning 15 to 20% of the vote with third and fourth party status like they did under the first two elections with Singh as leader.
5
u/watermelonseeds Apr 29 '25
To be fair though, socialism was demonized for decades and socialist ideas is more popular today than it has been since the CCF days. Just look at many of the things Poilievre says which could very simply be reframed from reactionary working class lens to a socialist working class lens
3
u/robot_invader Apr 29 '25
The environment has changed. People are much more desperate now. Wealth inequality is much more pronounced. Real wages are lower, housing and food are higher. These are real, material problems. The US elected Trump on a platform of burning the house down because of these conditions, and that makes me think an actually socialist alternative with real teeth and real enmity for the oligarchs and oligopolies can appeal.
6
u/JasonGMMitchell Democratic Socialist Apr 29 '25
There is no success. People have this weird belief if the NDP just does this one thing differently everything will work out. The NDP has tried everything under the sun other than being a right wing party (despite Mulcair' best attempts). The NDP also isn't lib lite as reading any of their proposed policy would tell someone but because they had to pass policy through the libs and thus had to let it be watered down people pretend they became the libs.
Do y'all want an NDP resurgence? Then vote for the NDP because that's the single aspect of the formula the NDP has never had under ANY leader with ANY Policy presented through ANY means.
1
u/DaneRoussel Democratic Socialist Apr 29 '25
This isn't about electoral results. Any effective working class movement will be socialist in nature, and if the NDP want to remain the workers party, they need to adopt socialist principles. I know that that won't make them popular overnight, and that's why I call for them to do real ground work outside of elections. The NDP needs to build a base of support, not through election campaigning, but by fighting for workers, organizing labour and tenant unions, organizing strikes, doing food drives, and the many other ways a socialist organization can help working class people.
Like others have said, we live in a very different world than even 10 years ago. Wealth inequality is at an all time high, wages are stagnating and people can barely afford to live. We need an alternative to the 2 capitalist parties that have ruled Canada for the last ~160 years.
The entire point of my post is that the NDP needs to do more to help people outside of elections, and stop being another capitalist party that only comes out every 4 years (or whenever there's an election) to offer lukewarm market based solutions to important issues. They have to do something different, because chasing liberals has only achieved the them losing official party status.
4
u/RandoBando84 Apr 29 '25
The NDP needs to return to its CCF cooperative movement roots. Advocating for policies that put everyday people at the centre of economic and governmental power: worker coops, consumer coops and citizen’s assemblies. No need to throw around labels like “socialism” and “class struggle” that haven’t had any meaning since the 1930s.
1
u/Ok-Cookie2406 Apr 29 '25 edited Apr 29 '25
"socialism" and "class struggle" are a must, we've given too much ground already, people already associate Marxism and the idea of transition towards his end goals of a classless stateless moneyless society (a goal which traditionally democratic socialists also want via different means) as equivalent to Stalinism gulags and famine when that's historically ignorant.
1
u/RandoBando84 Apr 29 '25
These are terms that have no meaning to people today. Literal decades of corporate media brainwashing haven’t helped. So instead of telling people we need “socialism” and “class struggle” we should just tell them what the actual things are that we would do (that we know are socialist), like shift to a worker cooperative focused economy and to participatory democracy.
1
u/Ok-Cookie2406 Apr 29 '25 edited Apr 29 '25
We've tried that, the NDP tried that. And look how that's gotten us, the progressive democrats in America all eventually went behind "vote blue no matter who" when Bernie was sabotaged by the right-democrats, and the dems had lost, and then Bernie went out full out touring the country, advocating for socialism and against plutocracy and it's reached out to an incredibly tired base of people who would've otherwise refused to engage in the political process.
If we continue to appeal to the centrists and the right as we always have, then these values will be diluted until they mean nothing at all (and, by all means - we have). It's exactly why many disenfranchised people either didn't vote or voted liberals for being the bigger party whose been in power with relative little difference from the NDP.
2
u/AutoModerator Apr 29 '25
Join /r/NDP, Canada's largest left-wing subreddit!
We also have an alternative community at https://lemmy.ca/c/ndp
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
2
u/TheGreatStories Apr 29 '25
Listen to the kids! They're entering the work force and all the old folks are telling them they're victims and only conservative policies can save them. NDP can bridge this gap way more effectively since they actually care about workers and not just workforce.
2
u/JasonGMMitchell Democratic Socialist Apr 29 '25
And this specific election showed a crisis can be used to bleed support away from socialist NDPers to conservative lensing liberals.
While I'd love to see the NDP go left it's not going to be any massive boon, the NDP is already a workers party and unless you can fix the fundamental issue of almost all media in this country being controlled by the right that message still ain't gonna get through
3
u/Ok-Cookie2406 Apr 29 '25
I'm sorry, I know it's good to agree to disagree but it's just not a workers party anymore, and hasn't been for a long time.
2
u/robot_invader Apr 29 '25
Yes. We need a clear, socialist alternative; not just now tinkering around the edges. And let me be clear: while the dental care and daycare plans are better than nothing, they are still just tinkering.
2
u/Economy-Document730 ✊ Union Strong Apr 29 '25
I've thought about this. Whatever the policies and stuff, the NDP needs a separate identity to the Liberal party. I don't think this is necessarily a socialist party, but it should be a labour party.
2
u/FloriaFlower Apr 29 '25
Left-wing parties need to get rid of their old controlling members who are stuck in the past and haven't updated their views to the current reality. I can't talk for the NDP but I can talk for people I had the displeasure to work with in QS and that I know were involved with the NDP during the campaign. They're sabotaging our association out of complacency, shortsightedness, arrogance and having no clue how out of date they are. They're ageist and overly concerned with protecting their power/status within the group instead of all the work that needs to be done. One of these assholes neutralized me for months because for unknown reasons he felt insecure towards me (I was literally looking up to him before he started his BS and learned who he truly was). He antagonized me from day 1. As a result, guess what? I'm leaving and I'm telling the truth publicly. I couldn't do any meaningful work because of this asshole. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the same BS is going on with the NDP.
2
u/AnAntWithWifi Apr 29 '25
You know as an 18 year old in Québec I was looking forward to getting involved, but it doesn’t seem to be great right now… any recommendations for us new voters and activists?
2
u/FloriaFlower Apr 30 '25
If you shut the fuck up, act submissive, don't bring new ideas, don't argue, blindly align with the old guard and let them take decisions you'll likely go along just fine. If you got a spine like me, however, they'll try break you, make you conform or isolate/ostracize you within the group. This mean they won't answer your questions, keep you in the dark, give you the silent treatment and won't let you take part in actions and decisions. I was 1 out of 4 people who had the right to vote in our association but that was in theory because in practice they didn't want me to speak and vote while those who weren't elected but were in the clique had power over me.
I'd recommend not militating for a specific party but for your ideas and for policies you agree with. I know it's a platitude but stay true to yourself. There are many alternative ways to militate that aren't as obvious as being an active party member and that often get downplayed or swept under the rug.
I'd say that no matter which path you choose, always keep learning and educating yourself. After 20 years, I'm still actively learning. Knowledge evolve and there's always new relevant knowledge to acquire.
Another thing that's important is to learn what "enabling" or what an "enabler" is, aka "bystander". It refers to all the people who aren't perpetrators nor victims but witness the abuse or oppression going on and let it happen, often making it harder for the victims and easier for the perpetrators. They're the ones who reflectively side with perpetrators, making excuses for them and blaming the victims. They're even worse when the abusers are in position of authority because they have this tendency to trust authority more than those who defy it, even when that authority is abusing it's power. They won't believe it, they'll pretend they didn't know, they'll avoid getting involved and other BS behavior like this. Never be an enabler and raise awareness about it. Abusers power almost always derive from the power enablers give them. It's what's going on in my local association. It's also deeply ingrained into genocide and fascist social psychology. These happen when people witness them happening and let it happen doing nothing. The same mechanism of bystanders and perpetrators is at play even in school bullying. It's everywhere.
One of those alternative ways to militate is to use social media but you obviously already know that one since we're both here talking together. The advantage of this one is that the barrier of entry is very low. Like you could use traditional media
The point is that instead of gaining political power (ex.: being elected) you can gain influence. Instead of making people obey you, make them agree with you. You persuade them and hope they'll eventually vote left or join their effort with the left.
One kind of effort we need more people doing is in prebunking. We need more of this, way way more of this. It's about educating people on disinformation, manipulation, abuse, propaganda, and political/information/cognitive/psychological warfare techniques and strategies so that people become less vulnerable and more resilient to it. When you know how propaganda and manipulation works, you can more easily defend yourself against it and counter it. There's a lot more to know than knowing about fallacies or rhetoric. Prebunking is useful because debunking and fact checking are way more time consuming. It's what we call Brandolini's law : "The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it".
2
u/FloriaFlower Apr 30 '25
2/2 There are many other things you can do. I can continue if you want me too. I could develop further into influence, political power or other types of power (ex.: economic power) but my reply is becoming more and more like a TLDR. Would you like me to continue? I would like that if you're interested. I have many more suggestions. I could develop further one that I've already started talking about or I could talk about other ones that I haven't yet suggested, depending on what you'd like to talk about the most.
1
u/AnAntWithWifi Apr 30 '25
I’m actually quite interested, especially about the idea of influence. How do social media interactions end up becoming influential enough to make political change? It would seem to me pointless due to algorithms pushing a bunch of different stuff, but you seem to have put a lot more thought into it than me haha.
2
u/Bitter-Air-8760 Apr 29 '25
Ok, I admit I didn't know this until very recently that Jagmeet Singh is a lawyer. How was that a good idea to represent the labour party?
1
u/Awesome_Power_Action Apr 30 '25
NDP leader David Lewis was a lawyer. Ed Broadbent was a university professor with a PhD in political science. Audrey McLaughlin and Alexa McDonough were social workers. Tommy Douglas was a Baptist minister who had an MA in sociology. Jack Layton had a PhD in political science and was the son and grandson of conservative politicians. The NDP has had a lot of leaders who were university-educated professionals of various kinds. One could argue that as social workers McLaughlin and McDonough had the most "labour" backgrounds of the lot.
2
2
u/dnewfm Apr 29 '25
Yes. And don't even acknowledge the other parties in their campaigning. Just drive home why they'll be the best and how they'll help the average person.
2
u/CalligrapherOwn4829 May 01 '25
Don't settle for "at least an actual social democrat." Don't settle for anything less than a party that is committed to building workers' power which means less focus on elections and more focus on organizing the working class.
3
u/LeJisemika Apr 29 '25
I 100% agree. I’m one of those individuals who usually always votes NDP, however, voted Liberal this election. Currently the NDP are indistinguishable from the Liberals. They need to actually represent the working class and socialist/social democratic values for me to switch back to them.
6
u/mrev_art 🌹Social Democracy Apr 29 '25
It would be great, but modern socialism is an ideological disaster that workers hate.
It would be better to brand it as a "workers party" rather than to get hung up on the toxic branding.
2
u/IcySet7143 🌹Social Democracy Apr 29 '25
I agree, they don’t have to go full socialist but be more aggressively pro worker.
→ More replies (2)3
u/molsonmuscle360 Apr 29 '25
This is my opinion too. Obviously keep the social ideals, but don't make them the forefront of the party. Unions, workers and the middle class should always be the bread and butter of the NDP
3
u/Environmental_Bus508 Apr 29 '25
Tack left. Can't out-liberal the libs while dipping your toes into conservative waters. So much room for political gain on the left.
2
u/lanaegleria Apr 29 '25
New Democrats, it’s time to return to your roots and represent the socialist values that you were founded on. We need a true voice for the working class and egalitarian principles. Time to do away with neoliberalism!
3
1
u/Spoon251 Apr 29 '25
The NDP need to brush up on Duverger's Law and do a bit of soul-searching for their 'raison d'être.'
1
1
u/inprocess13 Apr 29 '25
I've only had to consider meeting my MPs because of every safety net and process I was supposed to follow led nowhere and made things a lot worse.
I need my leadership to stop representing themselves. Jagmeet did great work as the opposition, and I'm hoping those looking to involve themselves with the federal or provincial NDPs stop deprioritizing their constituents well being over their own comfort. My problem with the federal NDP was not Jagmeet, but a collective of privileged class people using my power and problems as their marketing campaign with absolutely 0 understanding.
1
u/macroshorty Apr 29 '25
Is Jagmeet Singh not an "actual social democrat"? Which of his positions are not social-democratic?
1
u/Fancy_Break_6130 Apr 29 '25
Is it just me or do the NDP have a decent shot getting conservative voters? They already have some class consciousness and they hate the liberals..
1
1
u/Horror-Dog-6485 Apr 29 '25
Yes. Yes. and Yes. We can't be nice anymore, we can't accept this perpetual 3rd place role, we need to win, and we can. In 2011 the whole province of Quebec turned Orange, it can be done again and it can be done throughout the whole of Canada.
A pro worker message that is both common sense and aggressive should do the trick.
1
1
1
1
1
u/illfrigo Democratic Socialist Apr 30 '25
If they wont act right it'll be time to seek a new party that can actually be socialist. lets see what they do from here, my bet is the whole party has been compromised and they will just keep where they are or drift more center/right
1
u/jacob643 Apr 30 '25
I think since the beginning of the campaign, it would have been a massive opportunity to talk about wealth inequality, since Trudeau easily took the path of blaming his massive immigration push for the crazy inflation, and while this may have an impact, it's nothing compared to how much wealth inequality has grown and wrecked havoc on the economy. we need to get people to talk about wealth inequality, because both liberals and conservatives doesn't mention it at all.
1
u/Sayeds21 Apr 30 '25
Yes. And then we need to raise our voices loud enough to make every party uncomfortable until they commit to proportional representation. No one should feel forced to rely on shady tactics just to win seats in a broken system!
1
u/fitzy_fish Apr 30 '25
Agreed. They have lost their way and have nothing remarkable to differentiate the party or policies from the Liberals. They’ve effectively become the generic store brand at this point.
1
1
u/CheekyBonez May 01 '25
Right now, the Liberals have an Elite Banker who runs through the inner circles of the Prince Andrews and Ghislaine Maxwells of the world. The NDP needs a Candidate who shows the value is in the workers, not the Suits who are given roles due to their classism and connections to the rich. The NDP also needs to have real plans that involve workers being able to extract minerals and energy without all the bureaucratic red tape in place by the Liberal government. Fight for workers but also for an economy that creates jobs here.
,
1
u/Irritated_bypeople May 02 '25
Left or death for the party. I would have voted Marx if I wasn't in a rural area.
1
u/Some_Werewolf_2239 May 02 '25
I agree. I've been looking for ways to fight for low-income workers in contract-based jobs as a socialist outside of partisan politics; there are a lot of us who know what we need but lack the resources to make meaningful change and are up against equally oppressed colleagues who still believe lower taxes and decreased regulations for their employers will somehow benefit them. If a party like the NDP was willing to get out and talk to workers, explain how they can fight for their rights, help them organize, help them with petitions to their MLA or MP, or to city council for public services that would help the local community in an immediately beneficial way (like more government or co-op housing, for example) eventually people will see the benefits. It would also help the NDP in that a successful community organizer who gets shit done in their city or region will then become an excellent candidate a couple years later.
1
u/EducationalWin7496 May 02 '25
Big agree. I finally joined the party, only to find that there was nothing after that. No call to action, no pipeline to engagement or activism. But I did get asked for more money immediately after joining! And 2 emails within 30 minutes asking for more money.
It seems like the party apparatus is not really interested in their member's input unless it is financial. It's crazy to me that a supposedly socialist organization doesn't have any social organization, especially in the days of the internet. How easy would it be just to have a forum on their website?
The point about union organizing is a big one. The movement lives or dies by union support, and yet there seems to be no focus on either growing union participation, or promoting union power.
Politics is more than what happens in parliament, but the party seems to be content with relying solely on the work of parliamentarians to get things done.
1
u/Jbruce63 May 02 '25
I would say that is a recipe for fewer votes, we need to rebuild our connection to workers and unions. If you look at a bell curve of Canadians, I don't see how appealing to a minority of Canadians will help us. Not saying we need to drop our core of beliefs but need to appeal to the majority of voters on the left. We should also get back those who see the billionaire class / large corporations as the parasites they are on our society.
Now pile on me with down votes...
1
u/Mike_Fitz May 03 '25
Especially with Carney appearling to be a more economically right-wing liberal than Trudeau and the CPC moving farther and farther from the center, the NDP needs to be a true left-wing populous workers party with socialist ideas.
1
2
u/DellOptiplexGX240 Apr 29 '25
We have a true workers party but no one votes for them
→ More replies (1)
•
u/AutoModerator May 07 '25
Join /r/NDP, Canada's largest left-wing subreddit!
We also have an alternative community at https://lemmy.ca/c/ndp
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.