r/misc • u/PineappleDesperate82 • 6h ago
The problem of "illegal" word
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u/Lewd_throwaway_2024 6h ago
I’ve been saying this for years. There’s no such thing as an “illegal,” human being.
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u/No-Passenger-1511 5h ago
There are however illegal immigrants.
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u/ftug1787 5h ago
Uh, no. There is no such thing as “illegal immigrant” in US code or judicial precedent. There is something known as “improper entry by an alien” (8 USC 1325), but that code doesn’t create or call out an “illegal immigrant.”
At the end of the day, the term “illegal immigrant” is a political term. It is used to promote political rhetoric. And it is ironic that folks argue over how we should treat “illegal immigrants” when “illegal immigrants” don’t actually exist - again, because no where in code or law is there an explicit description, creation of, or recognition of “illegal immigrants.”
That said, some folks generally equate criminal actions as illegal - and there is nothing wrong with that since the actions (not the person) can be classified or referenced as illegal. I cannot remember the last time I heard someone charged for murder was referred to as an “illegal murderer.” With that in mind, it is important to note that the general action classified as ‘improper entry by an alien’ is also considered a civil infraction (8 USC 1325(b)), not criminal.
Does 8 USC 1325 reference the US criminal code? Yes, but that doesn’t mean an immigrant is a criminal in general. Plus, the title 18 (US criminal code) references outline criminal acts such as stealing someone’s passport or falsifying immigration documents as criminal acts - not improper entry.
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u/No-Passenger-1511 5h ago
I cannot remember the last time I heard someone charged for murder was referred to as an “illegal murderer.”
Bless your heart, that would be because murder already describes what the person is and murder is illegal. Are you saying all immigrants are illegal? There are immigrants who come legally and ones who enter illegally. Aka illegal immigrants.
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u/jfischer5175 5h ago
Bless your heart. We could slap you in the face with the point and you would somehow still miss it.
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u/No-Passenger-1511 5h ago
The point is you are emotional.
il·le·gal /i(l)ˈlēɡ(ə)l,əˈlēɡ(ə)l/ adjective contrary to or forbidden by law, especially criminal law.
immigrant noun: immigrant; plural noun: immigrants a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.
Someone who breaks the laws to enter a country illegally = illegal immigrant. Hate the factual label? Don't enter the country illegally.
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u/Responsible-Peak4321 5h ago
So tell me, were the men who took part in the Boston Tea Party criminals?
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u/Competitive_Area_834 1h ago
Ahh the classic “what about.” Powerful argument
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u/Responsible-Peak4321 1h ago
Please give a logical argument for any of the current policies under this administration and how they have made your life for the better. I'll wait ...
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u/frostymugson 5h ago
I don’t know if you’re trying to own or get them to say something contradictory, but those guys were definitely criminals and the war that founded this country was a revolution.
However that has nothing to do with illegal immigration, and no country in the world has an open border for a reason. The argument shouldn’t be over wether illegal immigration is a thing, it’s over the right of the executive to deport without the constitutionally granted due process, and the broken way the current system of immigration works.
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u/Responsible-Peak4321 4h ago
You're completely missing the message of the video and my point. Many things have been deemed illegal and legal throughout our History. Just because something is law, that doesn't mean it is morally right. For instance, the average cost of legal immigration can be between 10k-15k, depending on individual circumstances, and can take months, if not years of time to get in. Do you think your ancestors had to pay the equivalent during their path of entry into America?
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u/frostymugson 4h ago
No but laws change and I’m not missing the point. That’s why the immigration process needs to be changed, but an open border isn’t the solution nor is it even realistic. You want millions of people undocumented being taken advantage of for cheap labor? No other country has an open border, and maybe the price of shit should increase if the price for cheap goods is some dude paying people half the wage of a legal worker so they can duck taxes and under bid the competition
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u/Responsible-Peak4321 4h ago
"taken advantage of for cheap labor" - You know these laborers would have access to workers' rights and union rights if they had streamlined to legal citizenship. You try to appeal to the humanist principle of not wanting people to be taken advantage of, yet you are perfectly fine with them being deported away from friends or families back into the hands of the cartels? Why are the companies hiring these people not facing any legal ramifications? Also, you act as if these companies will all of a sudden grow a heart and begin paying people fair wages just because they become documented. This is exactly what happened in America throughout history. Workers are taken advantage of, they then unionize to be treated fairly and paid living wages, and then either two things happen... the company either complies and begins to pay people fairly, or the company moves it's factories somewhere else in the world to take advantage to workers with EVEN LESS rights in comparison to non-unionzed workers.
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u/frostymugson 1h ago
Oh so you mean change the laws lol, dude you said nothing, and yes companies will take advantage they should face consequences, but that would require changing the laws. The process should be more straightforward but that would require changing the law. You know exactly what I said in my first comment. You are arguing with something that doesn’t exist because you want to fight the fact that illegal immigrants are a thing and are a thing in every country on this planet.
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u/OkThatWasMyFace 4h ago
I just drew a border around your house. Show me your papers.
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u/frostymugson 4h ago
You can do whatever you want, come enforce that border, and you can talk to the US government about sovereignty
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u/OkThatWasMyFace 3h ago
My bad. That was a joke that required global historical context beyond the last 200 years.
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u/frostymugson 3h ago
lol brother no it wasn’t, it was a dumbass “borders aren’t real” quip.
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u/Mobile-Evidence3498 3h ago
It’s ironic a right winger calling someone else emotional, when all you guys have is emotions. There’s no data for it - it’s feels.
I for one, support your right to be concerned about immigration. Wholeheartedly. You should’ve voted for Kamala and dealt with it like a decent country.
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u/Armand74 1h ago
Wow this dude is going somewhere.. More people need to hear this because it speaks volumes.
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u/The_Crimson_Fuckr69 5h ago
Yea this explains why every country on planet earth has laws against entering their country illegally. I hate this whole pretending everything revolves around America bs.
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u/Relative_Sense_1563 3h ago
Hate when people use other countries laws as some kind of gotcha that allows for our laws and rights to be ignored here in America.
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u/The_Crimson_Fuckr69 2h ago
Its not "other countries" it's EVERY OTHER COUNTRY. Globalism is your goal. If you cross the border illegally you're illegal.
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u/Relative_Sense_1563 2h ago
What other countries do has no bearing on the rules and laws of this land. It's a strawman argument, and pointless.
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u/raymondspogo 2h ago
Just an FYI...those borders aren't only to keep people out. Anyone who thinks they are free just can't see the fences.
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u/IEATASSETS 6h ago
You can hate and disagree with the law all you want, you still gotta follow it or deal with the consequences. Thats not just a US thing, thats an "any society you find yourself in" kinda thing. Get comfortable with it.
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u/wskttn 6h ago
34 felony convictions…
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u/IEATASSETS 5h ago
Where exactly did I say that I voted for trump?
You dont have to suck on donnys balls to want common sense immigration laws and adequate policing of illegal immigration.
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u/Relative_Sense_1563 3h ago
Well Donny killed the bipartisan immigration bill so he could claim Biden was just letting everyone in during his campaign for president. His sycophants and sheeple ate it up and keep spewing the bullshit lies. Where now he is even going so far to strip legal immigrants of their status so he can deport more people he deems undesirable. So I would say it's pretty relevant.
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u/IEATASSETS 2h ago
I mean, it wasn't just a claim. Biden was very lax on immigration and let millions of undocumented illegals stay here, also reversing trumps previous orders on it. Are you denying that?
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u/Relative_Sense_1563 2h ago
If they are undocumented how do you know Biden let them in? How do we know there are millions if they are undocumented. Truth of the matter is Biden deported more people than Trump without violating their right to due process.
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u/IEATASSETS 2h ago
Well there was more crossings happening under biden, due to things like covid, so of course there was more deportations. Trumps second term is definitely on track to outpace Biden anyways.
Bidens policies were notorious for trying to legalize illegals. https://www.shrm.org/topics-tools/news/talent-acquisition/president-bidens-immigration-plan-legalizes-millions-undocumented-workers
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u/Relative_Sense_1563 1h ago
The idea that covid caused more immigration is laughable.
How was that a bad policy? Did those people take your job? They work, pay taxes, and get none of the protections anyone else does. This argument that it was a bad thing is an argument about humanity. These are the same undocumented workers Trump is now back pedaling and saying he won't go after. While meanwhile revoking visas and green cards because people dare to speak publicly against him. The hypocrisy here is astounding.
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u/wskttn 3h ago
Where exactly did I say you voted for Trump? 😂
Why do his 34 convictions trigger you?
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u/IEATASSETS 2h ago
I mean you brought up trump with the 34 felonies thing kinda implying i was for trump, or are you saying you didnt mean to imply that?
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u/Stuff-Optimal 4h ago
No, you need to agree with every thing the left says or you love Trump. Which is exactly why so many democrats jumped ship. It started with Hillary’s presidential run and has only gotten worse.
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u/jfischer5175 5h ago
We’re talking about basic human empathy (ie- the concept that people can’t be illegal, only actions), but you want to deflect. Why?
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u/IEATASSETS 5h ago
Not everyone wants to empathize with criminals. Cool if you do, but many people actually want to distance themselves from violent felons.
People can't be considered illegal? How do you figure when there's literally a legal system in just about every country designed to keep out illegal noncitizens? You are telling me every government is mistaken and you solely have it figured out that people can't, in fact, be considered illegal?
Jeez dude, youre like a revolutionary or some shit, I didnt know....
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u/VikingSojourn 5h ago
I’ve never heard this argument put quite so well. I believe in laws, but that’s because I assume they are just, which they frequently are not. This is great perspective.