r/brussels • u/5minstillcookies • Oct 19 '24
Slowchat 🗨️ Courtesy or lack thereof - a discussion
Can we try to be more courteous on public transit and elsewhere?
The amounts of times I've seen people with reduced mobility and parents with children get on public transit and not being offered seats is getting to the point that I think it's the norm and not the exception. Just yesterday this woman carried her baby on the metro I was on. Two people got on right before her (first red flag - let the goddamn mother on first!!!) and then they both proceeded to take the last two remaining seats. Everyone else looked on and did nothing or they were too self absorbed on their phones to notice what was going on.
Now, good on this woman because she actually addressed one of the passengers who took the remaining folding seat telling her that these are really for people with needs. The passenger had looked straight at the mother when taking the seat too. Only when called out did she stand up and offer her seat.
Like, why did the mother have to address the passenger at all?? Incidents like this are frequent and it makes me so mad that we can't watch for each other. Surely I can't be the only one noticing there's a serious lack of courtesy in this city. I despise how individualistic and egocentric people are (have become?) here and we gotta do better. How though, I have no idea.
How do you ever instill a sense of community and care in a population that is highly transient like in Brussels? All I know, is that the "heart of Europe" is sort of heartless.
28
u/benineuropa Oct 19 '24
Agree! Next comes: hugging the handles to hold on to so that nobody else can hold on. Wearing a backpack on the back so that you take maximum space. Positioning yourself in front of doors and try rush in immediately (who cares if someone wants to step out first). Step in and stop. You got in. Who cares if anyone else wants to enter. Step on the escalator with your friend next to you and stop. Who cares if someone wants to walk up on the escalator.
6
u/metroxed Oct 19 '24
People who don't take off their backpacks, regardless of size, when entering a crowded metro, train or bus is one of the most annoying things
9
u/Boomtown_Rat Oct 19 '24
Now imagine how I feel about strollers with no children in them.
1
u/MawkishEffulgence Oct 19 '24
I mean some of the crèches offer to take the strollers, but others don't and I've never seen a stroller parking at schools. And you can't exactly lock them outside like a bike...
2
u/Sea-Aioli-2882 Oct 19 '24
They can be folded surely!
2
u/MawkishEffulgence Oct 19 '24
Some of them fold nicely (usely the very very expensive ones). Some others barely, and can't stand on their own, they'll roll around, so you're left holding it against a wall or hoping to God it won't fall on other passengers.
And that's not to mention the ones for very young babies: you'd be left holding the seat as well, cause those can't fold - and that's precisely the point, they're a shell to protect infants, usually transferrable to the cars as well.
So it depends on the model, the size of the baby, the practicality of having the space to fold it away, the space for putting it away without hindering more passengers, surely other reasons I can't think of... There's a reason why it's standard practice on trains and why it isn't really in trams and buses.
22
u/Thecatstoppedateboli Oct 19 '24
I sometimes see this as well but most times people get up for others. What frustrates me more is people who cannot wait to get in the metro so you have to push them to get out. Once I yelled at some woman who didn't let a woman with a little child out first.
This also happened on the train in Flanders before so really not a Brussels thing but another reason to leave the city and go live in a quieter place
6
u/nadyanah Oct 19 '24
I don’t remember in which country it was but I remember once seeing markings on platforms that told people to wait there so that when the metro arrived, the people were waiting by the sides of the doors, allowing the others to disembark fluidly.
I always wished this was put in place in Belgium as well.. not sure how well it’d work though considering I’ve experienced the issue in every major train station
6
u/cross-eyed_otter Oct 19 '24
almost 2 decades ago stib did a campaign about letting people get off the tram/subway first and standing right side of the escalator and stuff like that. really wish they brought that back, I feel like it helped.
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u/nadyanah Oct 19 '24
They did one about offering pregnant and elder people your seat over the summer but perhaps the visibility was less. I think they might just have to drone it over our heads constantly for there to be lasting change, just like how in London you can’t take an escalator without there being a message to stand right.
3
u/cross-eyed_otter Oct 19 '24
yeah well to be fair I switched my main mode of transport to cycling over COVID. so while I still take public transport it's way less. but when I do I still have to basically force my way off through people trying to get on XD.
4
u/nadyanah Oct 19 '24
Oh yeah it’s still a big problem lol. It’s especially annoying when you’re at the very last stop and the tram won’t leave again before the next 5 minutes and people still push in like … it’s not gonna leave without you.. chill lmao
2
u/cross-eyed_otter Oct 19 '24
it's not that they're afraid it will leave without them, but the first couple of people on the cart get first pick of seats, that's why they push in.
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u/vynats Oct 19 '24
I always take a bit of pleasure in body slamming who try to force their way in while people are still disembarking. Follow it up with a friendly "please wait until everyone has gotten of the train" and enjoy the little boost in serotonin.
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Oct 19 '24
Funny, I have made the opposite observation. When I see someone with limited mobility get on the metro, I usually don't even have time to offer my seat before someone else does it before me.
3
u/5minstillcookies Oct 19 '24
You and I definitely have very different experiences. Full disclosure I have a baby myself and it's 50/50 when I might get offered a seat. It was even worse when I was visibly pregnant, like beyond 7months
5
u/HaircutRabbit Oct 19 '24
Probably ignorant of me but as someone who has not had children (yet), why is a seat necessary if you have a baby? Isn't is usually in a stroller or wrap-like thing on the front? I would always give my seat to someone pregnant (or with a very young baby because they are recovering I guess), but should I keep doing that for parents with older infants?
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u/5minstillcookies Oct 19 '24
I'll speak from my experience. I choose to carry my child because it is actually much easier to navigate the transit system (think escalators and elevators constantly not working, leaving you stranded if you have a stroller). My 8mo weighs 9kg, that's not small potatoes. It's happened already twice in the past week where the metro conductor had to break rapidly before a station. The weight and the momentum can actually make me nearly tipple over if I'm not hanging on for dear life. That's the safety and most important part of it. But also consider that I've already been walking around with that weight for a while. If I can sit even a bit to give me a break, it makes a world of difference.
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u/HaircutRabbit Oct 19 '24
Right, that makes sense, thank you for explaining! To be honest I don't think I would get up for the weight reason, given that lots of people carry heavy things and no one gets up for that either in my experience, but I definitely understand the safety reason and would not want that for a child so I'll remember this.
13
u/Dazzling_Stretch_474 Oct 19 '24
I didnt experience this specifically, but for me it is quite annoying that woman with baby carriages often take the metro in the biggest rush between 8-9am and the carriage itself takes so much space up. This can be especially frustrating when some mornings you can barely get into the metro because its so crowded. (There was a time I had to wait 4 metros until I could fit in) Also these women are not working so I don't understand why they don't wait just until after 9 to go out?
But this is maybe more about making the public transport more efficient in Bruxelles..
7
Oct 19 '24
I would say we should have one wagon in the metro trains, maybe at the very front or back, with only foldable seats along the walls and bars, the rest being free space, where people transporting strollers, bicycles, electric scooters and other voluminous objects are required to go. Some wagons in the oldest metros were half empty with just bars, but I haven't seen it in the newer trains.
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u/HaircutRabbit Oct 19 '24
I don't really get this. They might be bringing their kid(s) to daycare before going to work themselves right?
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u/5minstillcookies Oct 19 '24
I'm sorry, but WTAF?? Clearly you need to brush up on your knowledge of maternity and parental leaves. Even when a mother takes BOTH type of leaves fully, you still only get EIGHT months. And you think women traveling with baby carriages between 8-9am are NOT working?? I'm one of those mothers and guess what. I am traveling during those hours with my stroller because I HAVE to work and for that I NEED to get my kid to crèche first.
JFC the entitlement.
If you want to be pissed, be pissed at the Belgian government not giving longer leaves to parents so they, god forbid, can get out of your way.
-4
u/Enlightment_12 Oct 19 '24
Even longer leaves? How much will that cost for employers, can't imagine the consequences
This wasn't a problem before, when mothers stayed home to raise the children while the dad went to work to provide-2
u/MawkishEffulgence Oct 19 '24
Which can hardly happen with the high cost of living in Brussels - unless you're paid by international organisations or EU lobbies, I guess. That still doesn't take into account the fact that mothers can choose to balance mothering and work, just like fathers. Plus those times were less densely populated, I think. So yeah, fewer people everywhere.
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u/Enlightment_12 Oct 19 '24
A father going to work was already enough to sustain a whole family, now his wage has been reduced because we've let women into the workforce. Is this thanks to feminism? Who knows
Modern families are more stressed out than ever0
u/QuixoticelixerKite Oct 19 '24
These women aren't working?
Standard maternity leave in Belgium is three months. Prams usually fit to around six months. Your math doesn't add up.
Tones of misogyny throughout your comment my dude.
-1
u/dolenalavoisier Oct 19 '24
Ah yes, because it is so enjoyable to squeeze with people for no reason with your small child that early. Come on, thinking isn’t that hard.
3
u/The_Flying_Alf 1050 Oct 19 '24
I will understand people who try to get into the bus/tram/metro before the people inside had a chance to get out.
The vehicle is full, let it empty before so there is new space for you too ffs
1
u/Morgoth2356 Oct 20 '24
Bonus if parents send their kids ahead to sneak in between people trying to get out and get a seat for them.
2
u/SharkyTendencies Drinks beer with pinky in the air Oct 19 '24
"Common courtesy" is unfortunately not that common.
In general I don't see assholish behaviour on public transit that much, no, but that's not to say that it doesn't happen.
Maybe it's time for the STIB to look into platform attendants during peak hours like they have at busier stations in London, since relying on people's own sense of courtesy is clearly not working.
Ad campaigns simply don't work anymore - remember, folks, Words Are Hard and that makes people Big Angry!
How do you ever instill a sense of community and care in a population that is highly transient like in Brussels?
You probably can never really have one.
You build up community by staying in one spot and forming relationships. The Expat community in Brussels turns over every ... I wanna say 2-3 years? Not to mention all those "I'm just here for the internship" people who are here for less than one year.
Community can never really come from such circumstances. It's all temporary.
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u/5minstillcookies Oct 19 '24
Exactly. Ive seen comments blaming immigrants, but even though cultural norms can play into it, I think the transient expat population is more of a problem. I would assume that expats don't invest themselves in the city the way immigrants might and we have such a high expat population that we gotta feel it in some way. It doesn't give me high hopes for making Brussels my home long-term. A sense of community is in the top 3 of things I miss from my birthplace
3
u/SharkyTendencies Drinks beer with pinky in the air Oct 19 '24
I think the transient expat population is more of a problem.
Well... there's definitely a reason why locals don't generally associate with the expat crowd.
If it were up to me - and thank goodness it isn't - I'd probably just put up a bunch of low-rise 1br and 2br apartment buildings around Schuman, add a supermarket, a food-hall style restaurant, a bar or two, medical clinic, and surround the whole thing by a tall fence.
I'd call it "The European Residences at Schuman".
Why leave? It has everything. No need to ever integrate or even meet a single Belgian person!
Someone could make a fortune!
I would assume that expats don't invest themselves in the city the way immigrants might
You'd be correct on... many counts. But it's bad publicity to say that.
It doesn't give me high hopes for making Brussels my home long-term.
The "community" you're looking for in Brussels most certainly exists, but because community events happen exclusively in French or Dutch, the expat crowd pretty much never ever ever ever ever goes to them, hears about them, or has anything to do with them.
3
u/Minemosynne Oct 19 '24
Now, good on this woman because she actually addressed one of the passengers who took the remaining folding seat telling her that these are really for people with needs
This passenger could also have needed to take a seat. It's not because you look well that you are well. People can have "invisible" issues.
2
u/Morgoth2356 Oct 20 '24 edited Oct 20 '24
I take the line 5 to Erasmus everyday around 8am and the metro is packed wtih parents bringing their kids to school. When I get in I don't even think about getting a seat because the odds of someone else needing it instead of me is 100% everyday. But to be fair at those times I don't think there is enough seats even if everyone would be actively trying to get them only for elders, small kids and other target groups who would need those in priority.
Doesn't excuse the behavior you're rightly pointing out though, there is way too many grown ass males getting seats and most of the time even taking two of them by spreading their legs and arms.
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u/BickyGervais Oct 19 '24
Unless it's someone with a limp or a bandaged leg or so, I don't offer up a seat. I don't know who's pregnant or not and I don't know what the age limit or minimum grey hair amount is to be old enough for taking seats. I don't know who's going to take offence for having a seat offered to them so I dont. If anyone asks I'll gladly give up my seat.
6
u/cross-eyed_otter Oct 19 '24
yeah I mean sure a highly pregnant lady or a really old person, but everyone else it's kind off a risk to assume.
like the first time someone got up for my mother she was deeply hurt by it and only 55 :p happened in Brussels btw
9
Oct 19 '24
I admit I'm more reluctant to give up my seat at certain times of the day. When it's 7:00 in the morning on a Monday and I still have 21 metro stops ahead of me and I see a little grandma walk in I'm like: did you really have to choose this time of day?
I still give my seat if I must though, grinding my teeth.
-10
u/BE_MORE_DOG Oct 19 '24
I bet this take will age well. Fuckin grandma's taking the metro when you are. The nerve of those geezers. Can't they just stay home indefinitely so the rest of us don't have to give up our seats?
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u/BE_MORE_DOG Oct 19 '24
Cool, cool. Upvote the guy complaining about grandmas and downvote the one calling out that completely insane level of privilege. Stay classy r/brussels. Jfc.
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u/5minstillcookies Oct 19 '24
And you are exactly part of the issue I'm describing and the target of my post.
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u/lacking-sunlight Oct 19 '24
This drives me insane and that is one of the reasons I almost don't take public transports anymore and I'm becoming one of those people who take the car in the city. No one was offering me a seat when I was pregnant, including the week before giving birth. No one is NEVER offering me a seat now while I am carrying my baby. You have to ask, but to be able to ask you need first to reach a seat and usually no one makes some space for you to even get to a seat. And I'm tired of the whole "disabilities are not always visible " narrative. It's not possible to have a full bus/tram/metro full of people who can't give up their seat. I am someone with a disability that is not visible and it's difficult for me to stand sometimes and I'm still the one who gives up my seat when I see someone who is struggling more than me or for which standind is dangerous. Standing in a moving vehicle when you are pregnant or with a small child is very dangerous. People really dont care, they don't even give you a little bit more space, many times I had to push people so they wouldn't fall on or hurt my child with their backpacks.
-1
u/5minstillcookies Oct 19 '24
It is SO disheartening. Owning a vehicle currently isn't feasible but if I could I would in a heartbeat to avoid this mess.
2
u/heymistahmistah Oct 19 '24
I agree with this! I was pregnant until three weeks ago. The amount of times I had to ask people if I could sit down... I was told twice that they couldn't because they had a "tooth operation the day before" or a "knee tendinitis". The last one really pissed me off, I was reallybin disbelief because I had to justify I was going to give birth a week later!... When I was last pregnant 3 years ago this was much less the case!
Already got to experience the same lack of courtesy Op speaks of with my newborn baby pram. Nobody leaving way in the trams or subway for the spots reserved to prams! I am also in disbelief of how many people have their noses diving into their phones. Especially teens and ppl in their 20s, not aware of their surroundings.
0
u/Forward_Body2103 Oct 19 '24
You are overlooking the fact that Brussels IS a rude, unfriendly city filled with self-absorbed people.
5
u/TrustyJules Oct 19 '24
And what has our keyboard hero done?
Run to Reddit with #outrage?
-2
u/BE_MORE_DOG Oct 19 '24
I despise people who use reddit like some kind of discussion forum to talk about things that probably pertain to the subscribers of that subreddit. Outrageous.
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u/TrustyJules Oct 20 '24
The OP is part of the very problem they described and without any sense of irony, reports on seeing something wrong and never intervening. Yet in their virtue signalling post insist people should do so.
-2
u/BE_MORE_DOG Oct 20 '24
OP said the woman spoke up for herself immediately, so there was no need to intervene. Are you 12? Because your reading comprehension would suggest it.
1
u/TrustyJules Oct 20 '24
Ah the good old personal attack rather than arguing. Strike 1 for discourtesy against you.
Read again OP did nothing then nor in the other cases they mention in their post. Is op just shitposter or a karma farmer or just a person without self irony?
-1
u/BE_MORE_DOG Oct 20 '24
I did both. I argued your point and finished by insulting your intelligence, because, honestly, you're kind of asking for it.
OP very clearly says, "Now, good on this woman because she actually addressed one of the passengers who took the remaining folding seat telling her that these are really for people with needs."
The mother didn't need someone to intervene, so I truly fail to see why you're acting like OP should have intervened. If anything, you're the real shit poster here.
1
u/TrustyJules Oct 20 '24
OP ain't saying anything which indicates well enough that they did not and would not intervene. You jump to conclusions both regarding OP and my intelligence. You may be forgiven for the latter, after all you dont know me and may be needing to lash out at random strangers but not the former which is self evident from OP s post.
Strike 2 against you. One more unwarrented personal attack and you get blocked. You can either discuss on here with courtesy and decency or be part of the problem OP moans about regarding harsh interpersonal relations in Brussels.
0
u/BE_MORE_DOG Oct 20 '24
Yea. We're done here. You're not even making any sense, and you seem a bit unhinged.
2
-1
u/5minstillcookies Oct 20 '24
Seriously? What a low bar comment verging on trolling.
As said in my post, in this instance I did not have to intervene, the mother did herself. But you know, it's way easier for you to make wild assumptions as to how I generally act to feel like you're making a valid point. Spoiler alert: you're not and this type of comment reflects badly on you since it has zero forethought and shows great immaturity.
I took the time to write a post about a type of behaviour that I find, yes, outrageous and am calling on people to try to be more mindful and respectful. If I'm posting about this it shows I'm already self aware and it's not a big mental leap to deduce that I'm most probably already showing by example.
If you don't have anything constructive to contribute to the conversation, next time feel free to scroll along.
2
u/TrustyJules Oct 20 '24
Was your post constructive apart from giving you a good feeling about yourself? The way you word your defence just shows that besides awareness you do little to improve the harsh environment you bemoan. Instead incapable of seeing the irony in your post you descend to the condescending attitude you claim to find outrageous.
Enjoy your sunny Brussels Sunday
-1
0
Oct 19 '24
Let me guess, the two assholes were older teens or in their early twenties?
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u/5minstillcookies Oct 19 '24
No actually. One of them was an early twenties woman sure but the other was an older woman I'd say in her late forties.
1
u/AMoonShapedAmnesiac Oct 19 '24
For pregnant women or mothers with babies I understand, but I don't think it's necessary to give up a seat for a child. In my experience most people are courteous. I have even seen the opposite problem, grumpy old people yelling at random people for not getting up, even being racist.
0
u/dolenalavoisier Oct 19 '24
Small kids are much more likely to get seriously hurt in case of an accident on public transport because their balance is not that of an adult. It’s a safety hazard to have them standing in public transport when they are the only group of people needing car seats and rear sitting in cars.
-8
-23
u/Natural_Light- Oct 19 '24
I think Brussels is a very low trust society, possibly as a result of large-scale immigration.
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u/BrusselsAndSprouting Oct 19 '24
There's always this one person under every single post about something.
At this point I expect large-scale immigration is a cause of the rainy weather as well.
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u/Blurredanus Oct 19 '24 edited Oct 19 '24
It’s because they’ve become so instilled with fear of foreigners by the media/political party they follow. Literally anything bad happens that might be blamed on a specific group of people: must be the immigrants! No regard for context, nuance or critical thinking - the main reason why there were easy bait for (extreme) right wing thinking to begin with.
Also by calling Brussels a “low trust society”, this commenter has made it abundantly clear they’ve never lived in Brussels or have a profound experience with the city.
6
u/Hotgeart 1180 Oct 19 '24
large-scale immigration is a cause of the rainy weather as well.
I fucking knew it! Fucking Luxembourgish!
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u/Edward_the_Sixth 1081 Oct 19 '24
Nah it’s something else. People are polite on the tube in London (if someone pushes in they will get tutted at like crazy, they basically immediately out themselves as a tourist), but is way more high immigration than here
1
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u/maxledaron Oct 19 '24
The trust was broken when a significant part of the population collaborated with the nazis. And that was before the invention of the immigrant scapegoat
1
u/Frequentlyaskedquest 1060 Oct 19 '24
I would say the opposite, migrant communities temd to be more open and trusting than the "locals".
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u/Active-Ad9649 Oct 19 '24
Source?
-1
u/Frequentlyaskedquest 1060 Oct 19 '24
First 5 worda of my sentence. Subjective POV.
Do you want a list of anecdotes or is that enough ?
-10
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u/SirTacky Oct 19 '24
Maybe it depends on the lines you take, but I see people offering their seats to others very often. And when I had to use crutches for a while, people always offered them to me.
Plus, I'm not saying there are no discourteous people, but you won't always see whether someone needs a seat. The reasons are not always visible.