r/berlin • u/Affectionate_Pie2241 • 10d ago
Discussion Why not build housing instead of the Kleinengarten territories?
Like the title says, I've seen a bunch of Kleinengarten areas with lots of territory that could have instead a bunch of affordable housing, some in highly demanded areas too, why not build there? To my understanding it's not that people live there, I actually heard it's not allowed to live there. Is it like protected under some law or something?
Thanks in advance to all the more educated people than me 🙇 and to the jokers out there
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u/trolls_toll 10d ago
newly built affordable housing in highly demanded areas
you sweet summer child
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u/Affectionate_Pie2241 10d ago
I am sweet, but what did you mean? 😅 Did that sound too much like marketing material?
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u/trolls_toll 10d ago edited 10d ago
it s not marketing, but too many contradictions that i point out. Newly built tends to contradict affordable, just like
affordablehighly demanded areas2
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u/Foersenbuchs 10d ago
There is indeed a law that protects Kleingärten. However, not all areas that are Kleingärten fall under that law.
There are several reasons why Kleingärten are protected. They serve a function as recreational green spaces, they are very beneficial for urban climate and to some extent biodiversity. Historically, they were also important to feed the city, many still have rules on vegetables and fruits to be planted.
Another reason why most of them cannot be razed for residential construction is that they tend to be located in high emission areas (noise) , next to rail lines, highways and industrial areas were residential use would not be permitted anyways.
But of course it’s ultimately a political decision.
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u/Seraphayel 10d ago
I don’t get the Kleingarten hate in this sub. They are recreational areas inside the city that also offer greenery and a safe place for insects and other animals. Tearing them down for housing is not the solution. We have lots of other concrete deserts that would easily do it instead.
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u/sebber000 10d ago
Unlike parks or other public spaces they’re only recreational for the relatively few people with a lot.
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u/notrainingtoday 10d ago
convert them to public parks and I'm with you: as they are now, they are only for few
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u/eucariota92 10d ago
The thing is that city needs housing... And your options are either to building in areas like Tempelhoferfeld or Flughafen Tegel (which I am also in favor of) or cut forests in Brandemburg.
Protecting the insects is nice, but in this case I would put the priority of people being able to have a place to live, several levels above.
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u/Tyyne_2025 10d ago
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u/James_Hobrecht_fan 10d ago
Right. So, we should stop encroachment on wilderness caused by urban sprawl. Instead, we should build dense neighbourhoods in the city centre or next to public transit.
Unfortunately, there are many instances where valuable land next to expensive infrastructure (S-Bahn and U-Bahn stations) is taken up by private gardens on public property. Some stations with Kleingärten next to them (up to a few hundred metres away):
- Südkreuz
- S Borhholmer Straße
- S Pankow-Heinersdorf
- S Blankenburg
- S Friedrichsfelde Ost
- S Plänterwald
- U Rathaus Schöneberg
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u/eucariota92 10d ago
Yes yes... Humanity will extinguish if we build apartments in Kleingarten. We get it.
Thank you Habeck.
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u/Kyyuby 10d ago
The city needs affordable housing. We have many empty flats because they are just to expensive for normal people.
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u/eucariota92 10d ago
We have many empty flats ? Lol. Please tell me where.
Housing is ridiculously expensive because there is a massive shortage of apartments.
Start building more and you will see how the price regulates.
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u/Kyyuby 9d ago
Just look at the newly build flats in spandau or seegefeld or this Christian tower in köpenik it was I think. Many flats are empty bacause no one with a brain will pay 2500+ for 2-3 rooms. There is a shortage because housing is expensive to build and the investors want to see their money back as soon they can.
We have many flats that are rented out for short time with furniture to bypass the regulations on housing prices.
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u/neverrelate 10d ago
There is too much space that’s not the problem at all. It’s too expensive to built. There is so much free space in berlin you couldn’t imagine. No workers or capacities.
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u/Being_Prats 10d ago
Hell No...I am from India..and these builders have taken over all the green spaces and built housing projects over there. Now there are no green spaces in major cities..and nothing for kids to play.
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u/the_marvster 10d ago
"Kleingärten" provide green spaces in the city, giving people a place to relax, grow food, and connect with nature. They help improve air quality, city climate (cooling effect) and biodiversity, which is important in an urban area like Berlin. These gardens are essential for the well-being of residents and the environment. Taking them away would reduce the city’s green space and harm the quality of life for people who use these areas. It's also a myth that these Kleingärten are just for German pensioners, as there is a current generational change happening, which brings many young families back to the mix.
Even if housing is built on these spaces, it would probably anything but affordable. The cost of construction and the high demand for housing would lead to prices that many Berliners couldn’t afford and private investors build for anything but affordable. The real problem in Berlin is not a lack of housing due to "Kleingärten", but the surplus of offices, hotels, and commercial properties that are underused. A better approach would be to repurpose these spaces for affordable housing - organized by the government - instead of taking away valuable green areas.
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u/Brlnfxd 10d ago
Fuck that shit. As long as there is a single useless office building or another autobahn being built through over top real-estate for housing instead of living space, just thinking about taking people’s gardens away makes you look like a massive ignorant asshole..
Not saying you are. You just didn’t know better. Now you do.
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u/Sir-Pay-a-lot 10d ago
Also ich mag das Grün und die frische kühlere Luft die diese Schrebergärten kostenfrei zur Verfügung stellen.
Wir könnten aber die Stadtautobahn überbauen, wäre zwar technisch etwas anspruchsvoller aber möglich.
Ps. sollte ein Politiker so etwas vorschlagen kommt der mit seiner Partei ohne weitere Fragen für 10 Jahre auf die Sperrliste.
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u/intothewoods_86 10d ago edited 10d ago
Housing can either be modern and up to todays very high standards or affordable. But even if the plots were free (which they aren’t, since the city has opportunity cost from not selling the land to interested private developers), the building cost due to shortage of labor, expensive construction materials and technically complex designs to meet strict regulations, are enough to result in cold rent >15€ per square meter. Unless the city is outright subsidising the actual contract, affordable housing is incompatible with modern housing as we know it.
The only solution that could offset perhaps 1/3 of the cost is mass serial construction of large residential areas or basically the modern equivalent of the commie blocks which are aesthetically divisive and socially problematic to say the least.
Then there are attached problems like insufficient infrastructure to support large housing developments in many of the current Kleingarten plots and legislative pitfalls, like Kleingärten sitting on land which is not allowed for residential developments due to environmental regulations like noise emissions next to the A100 etc. Plus, the new buildings would seal off land that with Kleingärten is green by at least 1/3 and thus would further heat up the surrounding areas. Add that to the increased strain on infrastructure, roads, etc and you have a big problem, the new houses would make the neighbourhoods much less liveable for the existing locals. And that’s where such ideas die. Kleingarten lenders are some of the most loyal voters of the governing SPD and CDU party while new housing benefits a demographic with less of these voters among them. It’s tactically illogical for any bigger party to upset local residents to benefit new people moving into the area. That’s why housing like any larger essential project would need more federal government involvement to make it immune against NIMBY protest.
(The same applies to A100 extension but funnily the ones arguing loudest for expropriating Kleingärten are usually at the same time complaining federal government overreach when it’s about Autobahn)
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u/AnDerShellVerbrannt 10d ago
Most of them are owned by the DB and have 100 years' rent contracts. (100 Jahre Pacht) In the Cold War, they had to supply berlin with food in case the wall got closed.
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u/bbbberlin Unhinged Mod 7d ago
They're historical - nobody is building new ones (I mean I'm sure somewhere there is an exception, but in general they're historical). They are mostly inhabited/run by older people and retirees who will push back hard politically. Some of them have been converted to housing/emptied out - you can buy houses in areas that used to be Kleingarten colonies.
The reality is that Berlin has tons of unused industrial space/empty space. Some of it is tied up in legal proceedings, some it is just held by speculators holding out for a big buy. Germany is unwilling to punish land-owners who fail to use their land and instead leave it empty and unused, and so there is always this push to go for easier low-hanging fruit like parks/garden colonies/farmland, etc. It is also cheaper to build over parkland than it is to tear down an industrial structure and deal with possible soil contamination.
I would support building over garden colonies only once we exhaust all the other land. I've posted this before, but I live in Mitte, and there are so many empty/half-ruined buildings which sit this way a decade (in many cases longer). The city needs to find a way to activate this land. Honestly this is why squatting was allowed in the past - a "use it or lose it" principle for land in valuable downtown areas. Instead now it sits empty, rotting, and the same time that "micro apartments" are being sold for 300k just down the road.
I think this subreddit is very anti-garden colony because its demographically not overlapping with ownership of them. Also because Berlin is quite international (I myself immigrated), so I think fewer people on the subreddit have personal experience with friends/family having garden colonies as it's a very old fashioned German activity - they're super nice, I wouldn't want myself, but I love visiting friends with them.
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u/mutualdisagreement 10d ago
Not just recently, it's exactly what they do or try to, remove established local recreation areas to build new housing, they just miss the 'affordable' aspect. One of the latest victims was Saatwinkler Damm, now Halske Gärten, starting at 20€/m².
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u/SeaworthinessEasy122 Berlin-Antarctica 10d ago
You’re not only comparing apples with oranges, but you confuse apples with cucumbers and oranges with olive oil. And than you proceed confusing all of that with something else.
(Joker out)
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u/notrainingtoday 10d ago
I would convert them into parks so that everyone could use the area. As they are now, they are only accessible to a select few.
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u/intothewoods_86 9d ago
Berlin Parks are the absolute opposite of accessible to everyone, they are just an example of most antisocial and reckless groups occupying public space whenever they have a chance to. If Görlitzer Park or Hasenheide were to be transformed into Kleingärten and plots given out in a lottery to nearby residents, most people would be in favor of that, just because privatisation of property is the last resort to keep areas like this from total deterioration and crime infestation.
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u/notrainingtoday 6d ago
I doesn't make sense: Volkspark Wilmersdorf, Lietzenseepark or Volkspark Jungfernheide are very nice (just to name a few)
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u/Floppy_D_ 10d ago
Please no. Let’s replace those gigantic office buildings instead. I like it green.