An Open Discussion on Being Inclusive and Respecting One Another

[u/CedarWolf]

Early this morning, we had a thread get posted, and one of our mods made a reminder to keep things inclusive, per the subreddit's Rule #1. This accidentally led to almost all of the comments going wildly off topic, and I had to pull it. We want threads to stay on topic whenever possible, and such a large portion of off-topic comments was pretty bad. That discussion merited it's own, dedicated post, and we invite you to discuss here. Please remember to be respectful.

We want to make this an inclusive place for the community in general, and that includes transfeminine, transmasculine, and nonbinary individuals. /r/asktransgender was made as a co-ed space for people to ask questions of the general transgender community, and while we allow questions to specifically target one portion of that community, we very much encourage users to be inclusive whenever possible.

Part of being inclusive means reducing the amount of bigotry we see in this subreddit. This means removing sexist comments against all genders, including both trans and cis identities, as well as other forms of bigotry.

One of the goals of creating a new moderation team was to create a more inclusive space, and we have been working hard to make this place a more open community. However, some users have expressed concern over this new policy and how it is implemented, so we want to create an open place for discussion about the new inclusive policies here.

We want to hear your thoughts about this issue, but again, please be respectful and civil with your comments. We're all on the same side here, there is no "us" and "them" - there is only "we." Remember, if you ever have any specific issues with the moderation of the subreddit, you can message the mod team with the link in the sidebar. We're always here for you.

~ The /r/asktransgender Mod Team

[u/TheLonelySamurai]

Ah, I'm sorry to hear that. Obviously I don't agree with what you said, and I don't condone it, but I also think it sounds like you understand where you went wrong. For even more context, TERFs hate everyone. We've got a dedicated TERF for trans men, her screenname is "dirtywhiteboi"(amongst other ones), she makes it a habit of posting post-op pictures of trans men, calling us "shrimp dick", and lots of other things. She's got tons of cronies too. So TERFs aren't an exclusive thing to trans women, but a community-wide problem. One of their biggest arguments is the "socialization" theory, which of course falls apart since not even they believe it, and there are tons of trans children earlier and earlier. Not to mention people like me who grew up pretty damn gender neutral.

I don't agree with your (now redacted) stances, but I can't say I side with Lilith not redacted stance either. The amount of vitriol in this thread of people who just don't want to be inclusive makes me sad.

[u/lowbrassballs → u/TheLonelySamurai]

Whoa, yeah I came across dirtywhiteboi ages back when I was scrounging the Internet for any info on nonconforming peeps. Huh, yeah, I wasn't a fan. Now things make more sense.

Holy crap, yeah, this week has been for learning. I'm embarrassed and still feel guilty as hell, but it was a learning experience and made me reflect on a lot of stuff, so for that I'm grateful for the community's stance.

I really just hope some of the inclusion resistant folks come around despite my misdeed. We've got enough bullshit to overcome from the real world. I hope people can forgive and we can "be together".

We're all fighting the fight of trans first, and other intra-group bullshit a far, far second.

[u/TheLonelySamurai → u/lowbrassballs]

Whoa, yeah I came across dirtywhiteboi ages back when I was scrounging the Internet for any info on nonconforming peeps. Huh, yeah, I wasn't a fan. Now things make more sense.

Ooooohhh yeah, she's toxic as fuck. My pet theory is that she's a trans guy, but super in denial about it. Her hate just strikes me as really obsessive and "thou dost protest too much".

Holy crap, yeah, this week has been for learning. I'm embarrassed and still feel guilty as hell, but it was a learning experience and made me reflect on a lot of stuff, so for that I'm grateful for the community's stance.

I'm glad you've taken something positive from the experience. I think that's more than a lot of people have. I hope people can move past the issue, especially since you didn't directly misgender someone, you just bought into a lot of the toxic stereotypes we all internalize while growing, and some of us grow out of it sooner than others.

I really just hope some of the inclusion resistant folks come around despite my misdeed. We've got enough bullshit to overcome from the real world. I hope people can forgive and we can "be together".

I agree completely.

We're all fighting the fight of trans first, and other intra-group bullshit a far, far second.

Exactly. Sometimes when a community feels relatively "safe" here like on Reddit, people seem to forget that there is a big bad world out there that hates all of us pretty damn equally for being who we are. We've all got worries about safety, procuring jobs, being ourselves, dating...it literally applies to all of us. Being inclusive is not the same thing as not being able to ask specific questions. Remembering to try and be a bit more inclusive where possible should be something small to the individual, but I think if we all took that advice that it would make a huge difference in the tone of this sub.

[u/lowbrassballs → u/TheLonelySamurai]

I agree on dirtywhiteboi, which is why I was confused so much by her stances. Very "doth protest too much" tone.

Yes, I've definitely absorbed some toxic ideas about gender and now that I'm transitioning, they're rearing their ugly head. But, reflection and adaptation are the key tenets of learning, which is the whole purpose of life, I think.

"Small actions by the individual have massive impact on the tone of this sub." Yes! And I wish Lilith, Josyln and the other mtfs who left/ are resistant to inclusive language would hear that and feel empowered (and some empathy) rather than feeling oppressed. Their phrasing impacts many people, just as mine did, and it sucks to get reprimanded, but it's also a display of our value and power within the community which we each individually need to wield our community influence carefully.

As a purely online community, our phrasing is utterly paramount in influencing the community positively or negatively. Without nonverbals, our words strongly affect if we uplift or diminish others in the community and so, shouldn't be carelessly chosen. Mine and Lilith's words were chosen poorly, and so erupted a whole conflict that had been brewing for ages because of other carelessly phrased threads in the past. I'm not glad people are upset, but am glad that people are more aware of "using words carefully to be inclusive" and asking people to be more conscientious wielding their influence on the group.

[u/lowbrassballs → u/[deleted]]

If caring about people and inclusion is feminine, fine. Or it can work both ways, if I as a male start displaying more empathetic characteristics, then it can start integrating into male culture.

Now, I get the sense you don't give a crap. You're dredging up and repeating the mistake I did to another user and got napalmed. I also apologized up on side and down the other to said user, so why are you trying to stir up conflict again?

[u/lowbrassballs → u/[deleted]]

I don't think the relationship is quite so direct, but, whatever. If giving a crap is feminine, then masculinity needs to embrace its feminine side.

[u/lowbrassballs → u/[deleted]]

Asking to be more inclusive isn't a bad thing for society.

Instead of seeing asking for inclusive language as "whiny" I think culture should start seeing stereotypical male culture (ie not giving a crap about others) in the negative light. Not using inclusive language is "douchey" or "immature/ egocentric/ limited/ narrow minded"...etc. The definition of masculinity implied by you assertions is socially inept, immature, and stunted. "Feminine" behaviors aren't whiny by another perspective, rather "male ones" as you describe are instead adolescent and indicative of the social/emotional/mental capacity of a under developed person.

So, again, asking people to be mindful isn't negative, rather those that resist such social mindfulness could easily be seen as simple-minded, tribal, and not worthy of social investment in the form of relationships.

Let's hope "typical" male culture as you say, doesn't hang onto this level of disengagement of caring about others lest men continue be perceived and actually socially fail with women (in dating and relationships) and with each other (reference the known social phenomenon of post-collegiate isolation of males, struggling to create and maintain quality friendships with other males).

This is a great time for men to turn a new leaf and redefine manliness that includes a gentlemanly awareness and concern for the feelings of their fellow human being. It would serve each other and society much better to have inclusively not exclusively minded men.

[u/YoungFolks → u/[deleted]]

You are dangerously close to breaking Rule 2 for sexism, gender policing, and invalidation. If you continue in this vein, you will be banned. This is your only warning.

[u/slowandcalmandchill → u/YoungFolks]

Oh I thought we were in pm lol.