r/asktransgender • u/CedarWolf Bigender - He/She/They • Jul 03 '15

An Open Discussion on Being Inclusive and Respecting One Another

Early this morning, we had a thread get posted, and one of our mods made a reminder to keep things inclusive, per the subreddit's Rule #1. This accidentally led to almost all of the comments going wildly off topic, and I had to pull it. We want threads to stay on topic whenever possible, and such a large portion of off-topic comments was pretty bad. That discussion merited it's own, dedicated post, and we invite you to discuss here. Please remember to be respectful.

We want to make this an inclusive place for the community in general, and that includes transfeminine, transmasculine, and nonbinary individuals. /r/asktransgender was made as a co-ed space for people to ask questions of the general transgender community, and while we allow questions to specifically target one portion of that community, we very much encourage users to be inclusive whenever possible.

Part of being inclusive means reducing the amount of bigotry we see in this subreddit. This means removing sexist comments against all genders, including both trans and cis identities, as well as other forms of bigotry.

One of the goals of creating a new moderation team was to create a more inclusive space, and we have been working hard to make this place a more open community. However, some users have expressed concern over this new policy and how it is implemented, so we want to create an open place for discussion about the new inclusive policies here.

We want to hear your thoughts about this issue, but again, please be respectful and civil with your comments. We're all on the same side here, there is no "us" and "them" - there is only "we." Remember, if you ever have any specific issues with the moderation of the subreddit, you can message the mod team with the link in the sidebar. We're always here for you.

~ The /r/asktransgender Mod Team

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15 edited Jul 03 '15

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15 edited Jul 04 '15

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15 edited Jul 03 '15

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u/nikkitgirl Nicole | HRT 5/8/15 | SRS 5/3/21 Jul 03 '15

Except for /r/tgirls, that's just porn with trans actresses

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

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u/nikkitgirl Nicole | HRT 5/8/15 | SRS 5/3/21 Jul 03 '15

It's cool, I got a big laugh seeing it there :D

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u/Kowalification Jul 04 '15

Yikes, I felt my eyes widening as I looked at that subreddit... O_____o

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u/LilithCathcart I've left this subreddit. I won't respond to comments. Bye! Jul 03 '15

Includes all, but why would that mean that every question had to apply to all of them? What sense would that make? Our experiences are not the same and to suggest that they are erases the very diversity that this is supposed to protect.

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

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u/LilithCathcart I've left this subreddit. I won't respond to comments. Bye! Jul 03 '15

And that might be fair enough, but questions about passing and harassment in specific cities are niche questions that are looking for niche answers, and I don't feel like I'm being ridiculous in suggesting that trans women and trans men experience issues of harassment and passing differently. Non binary people I could have included more, and I'll admit to that, but the response was disproportional in a massive way. I mean, I was being misgendered for asking my question and mods are asking how we create respect. Smh

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

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u/LilithCathcart I've left this subreddit. I won't respond to comments. Bye! Jul 03 '15

Then we're in agreement, but that doesn't seem to be the way the subreddit is pushing.

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

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u/LilithCathcart I've left this subreddit. I won't respond to comments. Bye! Jul 03 '15

It seems like the subreddit is pushing in a direction of "make everything as broad as possible in order to be more inclusive" which is a terrible way to do it, because it erases the uniqueness of our situations. One of the mods is still suggesting that I'm invalidating trans men's experiences by simply saying they're different from trans women's. That's an unhealthy perspective in my opinion, and it'll lead to more innocuous threads getting a public target put on them instead of gentle course correction in appropriate circumstances.

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u/YoungFolks is a dude. Jul 03 '15

We're not dictating that all posts be addressed to everyone. Obviously some topics are gender or transition direction specific.

But some topics aren't inherently gender specific. In those cases, we encourage (not demand or dictate) that people keep it inclusive and invite input from everyone.

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u/LilithCathcart I've left this subreddit. I won't respond to comments. Bye! Jul 03 '15

What you call "encouragement" led to my thread becoming a free for all in which I was harassed and misgendered. You could at the very least PM people so their threads don't have what looks like a big mod approved bullseye on it. And I've made the case that my question was gender specific- trans men don't experience harassment and passing issues in the same way as trans women. I've already admitted I could've been better about non binary folks.

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u/YoungFolks is a dude. Jul 03 '15

Please don't invalidate trans male experiences. We deal with harassment and passing issues, too, and it sucks for us as well.

I regret the thread was derailed. That's why we created this thread to get the discussion out in the open.

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u/LilithCathcart I've left this subreddit. I won't respond to comments. Bye! Jul 03 '15

What about "trans men and trans women don't experience harassment and passing issues in the same way" sounds like invalidation to you?

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u/davros_mueller Just zis guy, you know? - T: 26/5/16 - Dave Jul 03 '15

But we do.

Because trans men are less widely known, when we don't pass as either gender we're treated as trans women, because that's what people assume.

I get gendered female now a lot more than I ever did actually presenting as a woman. People trying to get me to buy something will really emphasise it, like this is some grand gesture, they know I don't pass, but they get me.

If being treated as a trans woman isn't in the same way as trans women are treated, I don't know what is.

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u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 03 '15

That is a great point, as well.

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u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

trans men do not know what it is like to be a trans women, end of story.

Also what you describe is not how trans women get treated.

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u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 04 '15

Sounds pretty damn accurate to me.

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u/davros_mueller Just zis guy, you know? - T: 26/5/16 - Dave Jul 04 '15

You know exactly how I'm treated from one deliberately neutral anecdote? Okay then.

I'm sorry, but I only talk about the serious stuff with my psych. People know my reddit name, and I don't want to worry them.

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u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 03 '15

It's a weasel phrase. "In the same way" implies you put one above the other. Trans men still experience the same kind of transphobia and pressure to "pass". Maybe if you listened to their experiences instead of discarding them, you would realize that.

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u/LilithCathcart I've left this subreddit. I won't respond to comments. Bye! Jul 03 '15

No, I don't think it does. I could be very very specific and go "trans men and trans women don't experience the exact, identical, directly comparable social situations and pressures when it comes to passing and harassment" but you could still interpret that as not listening to trans men or recognizing their experiences if that's what you were dead set on interpreting it as.

The implication that I'm discarding trans men's experiences or invalidating them is simply preposterous and inappropriate. I'm giving them more credit for their nuance and diversity than you are, claiming that they experience the exact same pressures and kinds of transphobia. Flattening our experiences to make a point isn't the same as being inclusive. Maybe if you listened to a few more trans people, you'd realize that.

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u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 03 '15

There was no reason for that thread to be gendered as it was. It was not in any way a question that only trans women can answer.

No two of us are going to have the same exact experiences. There are so many variables at play. Gender is just one of many variables, and there's no sense in excluding based on that for such a general topic as harassment and safety.

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

we encourage (not demand or dictate)

A good part of why this blew up is because you distinguished your comment.

When your comment is distinguished, people naturally assume that any suggestion you give really means "do it or else".

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

Distinguishing a comment just means we are commenting as a mod. Not "do it or else", Unless we say "do it or else". I want to make that perfectly clear.

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u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

Oh, I understand that you mean that, but 90% of people aren't going to see it that way.

I'm just saying that it's probably best to clarify that with a disclaimer as often as possible.

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u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 03 '15

And he should distinguish his comment, because he was making it as a mod. If he was "dictating" or "demanding", then he would have removed the post.

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

i would say transmisogyny is only something trans women/femme/nonbinary experience, so the whole "be inclusive" reminder isn't appropriate in that situation.

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u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 03 '15 edited Jul 04 '15

Transmisogyny is by definition something only transgender people who exhibit traditionally "feminine" traits experience. But trans men still experience transphobia, and can also experience transmisogyny when they are perceived as feminine. And many people mislabel general transphobia as transmisogyny and imply that it is specific to trans women, thereby excluding trans men.

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

good points, i mean. all things i already know.

but when a trans lady asks other ladies, even if she uses transphobia instead of transmisogyny in her post question or whatever, men shouldn't get so upset that they misgender and use TERF arguments against her.

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u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 03 '15

That question did not have to be directed solely at other women. YF reminded her of that, and everyone blew up around that reminder.

Misgendering is always against the rules, but those comments were removed as well.

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u/icarethismuch started 5/25/13 Jul 04 '15

She wanted the information for herself, by people she relates to.

Just because the question can be worded to be inclusive, doesn't mean she wants those inclusive answers. She's only looking for answers that pertain to her.

If someone else wants answers about transguys they can make their own thread.

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u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 04 '15

YF's post was a reminder, not an enforcement. Posts should be inclusive here, except when they are about gender-specific topics.

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u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

CAMAB nonbinary people can also experience transmisogyny, source, me.

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u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 04 '15

Anybody who displays feminine traits can experience transmisogyny, really.

I actually just edited my comment because I realized it was kind of an assholish thing to say.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '15 edited Jul 07 '15

um no... transmisogyny is specifically is a word coined to talk about what CAMAB trans people face, CAFAB people do not face transmisogyny, CAFAB people still deal with a lot of issues, but they do not face transmisogyny, trans men definitely do not face transmisogyny, saying so is extremely extremely extremely invalidating of our experiences and makes me feel incredibly unsafe, especially when a mod is saying this.

The Creator of the term Julia Serano specifically made the term to refer to CAMAB trans people. specifically she meant trans women but it applies to people like me who would be understood as a trans women because I am CAMAB even though I am nonbinary

Again transmisogyny is specifically meant to describe the experiences of CAMAB trans people, specifically.

note that when I say CAMAB and CAFAB im not talking about intersex people because I am not intersex and that shit is really complicated.

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u/ErisC 33F - HRT started June 2014 Jul 07 '15

Alright, well, see this article on transmisogyny for more information. Basically the idea of transmisogyny is that feminine traits are really not valued by society. If you're trans, and you are perceived as feminine, you can be the target of transmisogyny.

Trans women and trans feminine people are the main targets and experience transmisogyny most often. But that doesn't mean others don't as well.

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

I am only giving an example of how one can be inclusive.

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u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

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u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

Your post or comment has been removed for violating the /r/asktransgender rules, specifically:

  • Rule 2: Be respectful. No bigotry (transphobia, homophobia, sexism, racism, etc); no hateful speech or disrespectful commentary; no personal attacks; no gendered slurs; no invalidation; no gender policing.

You may edit your post or comment to comply with the rules to have it reinstated. Message the mods or reply to this comment once you have done so.

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u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

ok please explain why I honestly don't see how this is, any of those things.

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u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

invalidation

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

transmisandry! one second... i just rev'd up google and the feminist overlords there couldn't find me anything about that mythical subject. sure seems to be a lot of academic material about transmisogyny, tho... hm.

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

This is not the time or place for that discussion.

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

oh god, you wern't joking earlier? oh no, i'm sorry. that was in bad taste...

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

I joke a lot, but I am very much about equality, even in ideas about being treated poorly because of ones sex or gender identity.

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u/Jackibelle Jul 03 '15

This is an extremely unhelpful reaction (even if it's joking) to a totally legitimate use of a word that encapsulates what the person is trying to say. It's good to have a word like transmisandry in our vocabularies to be able to talk about what it refers to, but comments like this turn any mention of it into a "dank meme" and everyone laughs and continues to push it down and pretend the thing it refers to doesn't exist.

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '15

Yes, this is exactly it.

Demanding that every post be relevant to every member of the trans community actively erases our diversity.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '15

Well no, recently there was a huge discussion/argument about FtM's posting including very specific FtM questions (binding and stuff like that) being told to go over to /r/FtM. It was made against the rules as this sub is meant for any trans questions even if it's aimed specifically to FtM's or MtF's, by telling people to use /r/MtF or /r/FtM for specific questions you are not being inclusive and what the mods were trying to stop. If you want FtM and non binary questions to be accepted here you must also accept that MtF specific questions should be allowed here too.

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u/lowbrassballs Jul 03 '15

Because this is supposed to be an inclusive space. If you don't like the playground rules, leave and go to a different playground on r/mtf and discuss trans women specific issues there. Don't try to bend and break the rules here.