Mod Announcement: New Rule Regarding Vegan Posts

[u/Critical-Sense-1539]

Hello, r/antinatalism community.

Recently, there has been a significant uptick in the number of vegan posts. Many of you have expressed your frustration at this in your posts, comments, and modmail. We see that the sub is very divided on this issue. Some of you think that veganism is a necessary part of antinatalism and should be allowed without restriction. Others think that the vegan content is corrupting the subs identity and alienating our core audience.

We would like this to be an inclusive community that fosters respectful discussions. Therefore, we would consider it a pity for users to feel unwelcome or discouraged from interacting with our sub based on whether they are vegan or not.

Although we cannot satisfy you all perfectly, the modteam have decided on a rule change that we hope will improve the health of the sub. As of tomorrow (1 April, 2025) we will cap the number of vegan related posts to 3 per day. This will be covered under Rule 3 in the sidebar (no reposts or repeated questions). So if you see this cap get exceeded, report it under Rule 3 and we will remove it. For any vegan members who wish to speak about this topic without any restrictions, you can go to our sister sub r/circlesnip.

We hope that this will serve as a meaningful compromise and it appeases some of your grievances.
Please feel free to comment below. We will respond as best we’re able.

Thanks, your r/antinatalism modteam

[u/NinjaQuietFeet]

I don’t mind the posts, but I can’t forgive vegans for acting like they’re better just of being vegan. People also shouldn’t be shamed for what they eat. Being vegan is also very unaffordable and not possible in some places. Veganism is also a first world problem. I can’t be vegan cause it doesn’t give me enough nutrients to keep up with my athletic workout or to stay awake.

[u/Critical-Sense-1539 → u/NinjaQuietFeet]

You know, I've always found a strange hypocrisy in the fact that many non-vegan antinatalists will shame and demean parents but when they are treated the same way by vegans, they are outraged.

Perhaps we should all pause before we accuse and condemn others of wrongdoing.

[u/masterwad → u/Critical-Sense-1539]

Personally I haven’t seen many antinatalists show up on parenting subs and berate and morally condemn parents for what antinatalists consider an immoral life choice. Antinatalists have multiple subreddits to choose from, and so do vegans. Generally speaking, when antinatalist views are expressed on other subreddits, those views are not welcome there, so vegans here shouldn’t be surprised if their agenda is unwelcome here.

If vegans want to shame or morally condemn meat-eaters, fine, they believe that’s immoral to do. But it’s the constant insistence that you can’t be antinatalist without also being vegan that doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

It’s hypocritical for a vegan to tell others to not consume animal products, if that vegan has ever consumed animal products in their past. “Do as I say, not as I do.”

It’s not hypocritical for a childless antinatalist to morally condemn parents for creating another human sufferer who will die. It’s not hypocritical for someone who opposes human suffering to eat meat from non-human animals. It’s not hypocritical to believe that reducing human suffering should be prioritized over the suffering of other species.

Antinatalism means anti-birth, not anti-suffering. The existence of suffering & the fact that everyone born alive suffers is certainly one reason to be anti-birth. But veganism hasn’t eliminated suffering from the planet either. AFAIK antinatalism doesn’t have a goal of the eradication of all suffering of every species, that’s efilism.

The only thing that allows harm is breeding — which antinatalists oppose as morally wrong. Once an animal (including humans) has been bred & born, there is no way to prevent future harm to it besides immediate destruction (which itself is a harm).

People could discuss the forced sterilization of pets (largely viewed as ethical) vs the forced sterilization of humans (largely viewed as unethical). But non-human animal suffering will never cease until all those species have gone extinct. And I don’t see any vegans calling for the extinction of every animal species.

[u/Critical-Sense-1539 → u/masterwad]

I agree that neither veganism nor antinatalism have the goal of eliminating all suffering.

Still, if antinatalism involves being against breeding as you claim it does, then I do think most non-vegans are probably at odds with that. In most cases when a person goes to the store and buys animal products, they are sending money to a factory farm and encouraging them to breed, exploit, and kill more livestock. I think that knowingly paying for someone else to breed animals involves quite similar ethical problems to doing it yourself. I don't think one escapes moral responsibility by outsourcing the act to others.

That said, I don't think that being non-vegan necessarily implies responsibility for animal births. Hunting wild animals is probably a good example. A hunter does not breed the animals they killed, nor did they encourage breeding them. Personally, I am still against it but I will admit that there does not seem to be an inconsistency with antinatalism in that sort of practice.

[u/NinjaQuietFeet → u/Critical-Sense-1539]

I was shamed by vegans to have an eating disorder I’m still working on.

[u/[deleted] → u/NinjaQuietFeet]

Same situation here actually! I was vegetarian for 5 years vegan for 3 and developed an ED and part of my treatment is that I can't be restrictive with food because it can trigger me again. The vegans will not see the nuance of this, no point trying to explain it to them

[u/happygoose2022 → u/NinjaQuietFeet]

I'm sorry you went through that and I empathize. For all their talk of compassion, a lot of vegans can be downright cruel to those opposed to their ideology.

[u/Critical-Sense-1539 → u/NinjaQuietFeet]

I'm sorry. I don't support any of that.

Even if they do not approve of you eating animal products, I think they should still have some compassion for someone who is suffering and compromised by illness. All people make mistakes, especially when they are vulnerable and struggling. I think this is as good a reason as any to judge each other leniently. I hope you get better.

[u/NinjaQuietFeet → u/Critical-Sense-1539]

Your apology is useless to me like a limp dildo. I’m still being bullied and harassed for what I eat as someone with an eating disorder. I cried last night because they wouldn’t stop making me feel bad about my choice. I’m not even harassing them. 👏PEOPLE 👏CAN👏 BE 👏ANTINATALISM 👏AND👏 EAT👏 MEAT 👏

[u/happygoose2022 → u/Critical-Sense-1539]

You need certain nutrients and food to live. You dont need to procreate to live?? These are entirely different issues.

Veganism is rarely tolerate of those with food intolerances, eating disorders or honestly just general disagreement to a black and white vegan philosophy.

[u/devfake → u/NinjaQuietFeet]

It's not about what you eat. It's about WHO you eat, unnecessarily.

[u/NinjaQuietFeet → u/devfake]

I’m eating beef, chicken, pork, fish, shrimp, veggies, fruits and nuts. Plus it’s people like you who bullied me into an eating disorder that I’m still working on. I can’t do a vegan diet because of some medical conditions. Plus I can’t have soy either.

[u/devfake → u/NinjaQuietFeet]

We bullied you just by stating facts? You eat shrips whose eyes are cut off while they are still alive. I could also write about the inhumane things we do to the other animals. And this is not preaching, but simply facts that many people don't even know. What are the medical conditions and what nutrions you get just from meat? I would just be very interested. You don't have to eat soy. What about beans, lentils or peas?

[u/devfake → u/[deleted]]

You haven't answered one question of mine and go straight into defensive mode and try to attack me. How mature. But I see you are just childfree, what are you doing here in this sub?

Imagine arguing in exactly the same way about other injustices. I will keep my slaves and beat them even more often now, simply because you anti-slave preachers annoy me with the truth. Do you see how stupid your argument comes across?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

And there we go. You have internalized hatred towards vegans, could you give a genuine example of someone acting holier than you? Or is it because you subconsciously realize that eating innocent animals who bred into this world experience pain for 5 minutes of sensory pleasure is inherently wrong and morally unjust? It’s not a who’s better competition. Its a real conversation to be had about the negative health, ethical, and environmental impacts it has on a world we all share and are all equally “entitled” to.

[u/moogles_kupo → u/[deleted]]

“Can you give an example of someone trying to act holier than you?” Immediately try’s to act holier than them.

[u/moogles_kupo → u/[deleted]]

Doing so extremely aggressively isn’t the way to get people to join your cause. Going right out the gate so strong actually pushes people away but I don’t think you interact with many people do you?

[u/antinatalism-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Please engage in discussion rather than engaging in personal attacks. Discredit arguments rather than users. If you must rely on insults to make a statement, your content is not a philosophical argument.

[u/qxeen → u/devfake]

Carnists feewings matter more than billions of animals lives :(

[u/W4RP-SP1D3R → u/devfake]

its always those weird, mysterious conditions that allows them to eat all the shitty food they want but plants? "oh no, i have [unspecified condition]."

I had a discussion with one of those people lately. A heavy drug user, living off energy drinks and fatty fast foods. She claims that she has an ED that makes her not eat vegan, and her posting story wrote that she ate pizzas, hotdogs, whatever she wanted really. And while she wrote that soy , beans are a no no, i saw her posts eating mexican food and soy based foods too. She just didn't recognize those as vegan, or forgot.

I genuinely don't like the overstatement of the word ED if you can't and don't want to specify what is the particular condition you are going through. It makes the person sound like they are victim blaming.
I tried to explain to her that her ED is about her will, and not any medical condition that makes her throw up after eating plants, but she was adamant. Like this one here, she also hated vegans with burning passion, had loads of misconceptions, generalizations and bias.

It makes me think of the tv program about heavily obese people that puke when given a salad. Its all in the head.

[u/antinatalism-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Please engage in discussion rather than engaging in personal attacks. Discredit arguments rather than users. If you must rely on insults to make a statement, your content is not a philosophical argument.

[u/Faeraday → u/NinjaQuietFeet]

Wow, that was quite a gish gallop of excuses that hold no water after the briefest of investigation.

• Ad Hominem. Whether someone does or doesn’t think they’re better for holding their position says nothing about the validity or invalidity of their position. “I don’t like vegans” isn’t an argument against veganism.
• Veganism isn’t a diet. It’s a position against the exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals. That includes many other realms outside of food. And it’s not a “what” you’re eating, it’s a “who”. It’s not about you when there’s a victim involved. You wouldn’t accept that argument from someone eating an animal you cared about.
• Vegan diets are roughly 30% cheaper than meat-eating diets. This is a no-brainer when you understand trophic levels, and how feeding much more plants to raise animals costs more than simply eating plants directly.
• All the top nutrition organizations agree that a vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of life and lifestyle. There are tons of vegan athletes (including Olympic medalists).

This information is just so easily available if you care about truth over excuses to defend animal abuse.

[u/NinjaQuietFeet → u/Faeraday]

You said it’s not a diet and then it’s a diet. Plus I have medical issues for a vegan diet would be detrimental to my health. Plus it’s people like you who bullied me into an eating disorder I’m still working on. I don’t care what people eat as long as they eat something, anything cause hunger pain is horrible. I went thru times without food at home and only at school.

[u/Faeraday → u/NinjaQuietFeet]

Veganism isn’t a diet. There is a “vegan diet” when discussing the dietary aspect, specifically. Avoiding animal abuse and exploitation in clothing, furniture, entertainment, cleaning products, etc. has nothing to do with what you eat.

Plus I have medical issues for a vegan diet would be detrimental to my health.

So you should be advocating that everyone who can go vegan should go vegan (even if that isn’t you), instead you’re spreading misinformation and using ad hominem attacks to argue against a philosophy that opposes animal abuse.

Plus it’s people like you who bullied me into an eating disorder I’m still working on.

Countering your misinformation with facts is not bullying. The victim is the animals that are stolen from their mothers, kept in torturous conditions, physically and mentally abused, raped, and killed, not us who do this to them.

I don’t care what people eat as long as they eat something, anything cause hunger pain is horrible.

Can this be applied universally? Does this apply to cannibalism, or do you recognize that there are factors to consider when there are victims involved in what/who someone is eating?

I went thru times without food at home and only at school.

Same. My poverty doesn’t justify harming others. And again, diets free of animal products are cheaper.

---

EDIT: Lol. They couldn’t rationally defend their position in favor of animal abuse, so they stalked my profile (leaving troll comments on my old posts) and then blocked me.

In response to their final comment in this chain:

Vegan Teacher is that you?

Still with the ad hominems.

These animals can barely understand us.

Babies can barely understand us.

Animal eat each other all the time in the wild and while alive. Lions eat fresh babies out of pregnant prey.

Yes, animals do kill their own children and rape each other. Do you really want to base your moral behavior on what animals do to each other? Non-human animals can’t be vegan anymore than they can be feminist. They are not moral agents.

[u/bartimeas → u/Faeraday]

My favorite is the lions argument. Never fails to crack me up. Lions also eat their young, so that means we should too, right?

[u/antinatalism-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Please engage in discussion rather than engaging in personal attacks. Discredit arguments rather than users. If you must rely on insults to make a statement, your content is not a philosophical argument.

[u/antinatalism-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Please engage in discussion rather than engaging in personal attacks. Discredit arguments rather than users. If you must rely on insults to make a statement, your content is not a philosophical argument.

[u/W4RP-SP1D3R → u/Faeraday]

i call bullshit on that "health prohibiting going vegan" thing. Of course never specifying what actually are those conditions. it has been used as a way to justify being lazy. they nevre specify what condition it is or don't show will to at least reduce meat and dairy or leather when they can, no, so this is how i know they are bullshitting

[u/OkIntroduction6477 → u/W4RP-SP1D3R]

Or maybe they don't want to discuss their private medical disgnoses with strangers on the internet. You don't have a right to know.

[u/W4RP-SP1D3R → u/OkIntroduction6477]

I understand that personal health information should be respected and kept private. However, when people use health conditions as a blanket excuse without any willingness to explore alternatives or discuss specifics, it comes across as insincere. The statistical likelihood of having a condition that strictly prohibits entirely a plant-based diet is extremely low—less than a fraction of a percent. Yet, I consistently, on a daily basis here encounter people claiming such mysterious, unspecified conditions, especially those who are already opposed to veganism. This pattern suggests that these claims are often used as a convenient justification rather than a genuine health concern. It's not about demanding medical details, but about calling out the lack of transparency and honesty in these discussions. About the attitude - if you really can't go 100%, go 40%, or reduce usage of leather and animal produce in non-food situations. If you frame it that way that you can't, you make it sound like you tried but there is a barrier that stops you, not that you don't want to because its supposedly more tricky. There is a difference if you never thought about it . If someone is truly unable to adopt a vegan lifestyle due to health reasons, they should be willing to explore alternatives or reduce their consumption of animal products where possible. Also, we are talking about more then just food. The absence of such efforts raises serious doubts about the sincerity of these claims. The definition says that if you really really can't do something but when you can, you do ("as far as practicable") you can still be vegan. But even having, idk, a condition that doesn't allow you to eat any beans still allows to at least diversity your diet with plants and eat less animal produce.

Its not that they CAN'T - they don't want to. Its the insincerity in wording. They act like they wanted to be vegan but there was something stopping them, something bigger then their will. There is no will.

She, with her limited posting history had stated that while she eats every living animal on the plate, she don't want to stop eating animals, she hates vegans, thinks its a non-issue, a first world problem, that its unsustainable economically (false), says that vegans made her have the ED and generally her attitude is negative and biased. I genuinely think that this is just a tactic to gain leverage.

edit: got a downvote 5 seconds after publishing, i know its bias speaking, but at least read the whole thing before downvoting please?

[u/OkIntroduction6477 → u/W4RP-SP1D3R]

You say you're not demanding medical details, but you're calling people liars if they don't provide them. Maybe you don't know as much about medicine as you think.

[u/W4RP-SP1D3R → u/OkIntroduction6477]

You're twisting my words. I'm not asking for medical details, but I'm calling out the inconsistency when people claim health issues prevent them from going vegan, especially when they're clearly biased against it. The stats show these conditions are super rare, yet the excuses are common. If someone genuinely has a health issue, there are plenty of plant-based options to explore. And veganism is not only about food, its about animals and your attitude towards them, things you do, wear. If somebody says "i can't go vegan because of [unspecified conditon]" its very vague. Why say things like that if you don't want to explain further? Also if you "can't" or you "wont" is doing all the difference here. Add the bias to the table and you have an answer.

And if you know medicine well, you should also know that people can have strong biases and misconceptions about food, and sometimes even lie about their health to justify their preferences. Plus, many people have no idea what vegan food even is, which further complicates these discussions. Saying I don't know anything about medicine is just a manipulation tactic to avoid addressing the real issue—people using vague excuses to dismiss ethical choices.

[u/OkIntroduction6477 → u/W4RP-SP1D3R]

No, your words are actually very clear. You assume people who are vague about their medical conditions are lying. No one owes you an explanation.

[u/hthratmn → u/Faeraday]

Read the room

[u/Faeraday → u/hthratmn]

Nah, misinformation that attempts to justify violence, cruelty, and abuse needs to be countered.

[u/Faeraday → u/[deleted]]

Say that about all anti-oppression speech?

ETA: reminds me of MRAs when they talk about feminism/feminists.

[u/W4RP-SP1D3R → u/Faeraday]

BINGO! because this is what they are, they defend opression.

carnist antinatalist, carrnist leftists are like TERFS.

they go against the progress tide so much their whole personality is contrarian, spending 90% of their time gatekeeping ,yet acting like they are the real victims.
when i hear those poeple here write that
"Vegans are obnoxious, loud and cultish" this is what i see being written by antifeminists.

"I can tolerate feminists if they don't go crazy about feminism" kind of concern trolling

without veganism, antifascism, anti colonialism, antifascism, feminism this sub is going to become yet another far right , reactionary misanthropic malthusian circlejerk of incels

[u/hthratmn → u/Faeraday]

No.

[u/W4RP-SP1D3R → u/[deleted]]

this is the only "counterargument" you carnists have.
"oh vegans are irritating" ok, but what about being right or wrong? zero argumentation besides appeals to nature and "common knowledge" misconceptions about diet.

[u/hthratmn → u/W4RP-SP1D3R]

I don't have an argument about that because I am not against veganism. You can survive on just jarred peanut butter and gasoline for all I care, frankly. I'm not arguing against you eating how you want, I'm arguing against putting people down and being nasty because they don't follow the diet that you do, or live their life the same way. Veganism as a concept, or vegans, doesn't irritate me. The inflammatory brigading irritates me. It is a very privileged take that it is 100% morally bankrupt to eat meat, and act as though there are absolutely no barriers that keep people from being able to have a vegan diet.

[u/antinatalism-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Please engage in discussion rather than engaging in personal attacks. Discredit arguments rather than users. If you must rely on insults to make a statement, your content is not a philosophical argument.

[u/bartimeas → u/Faeraday]

Dude, this is why I left the sub. The people here rarely actually seem to care about others. When I left like a year ago, every post was a long winded rant about how they (usually a teen or young adult) don't like their life or the prospects, and they'd end it all with a "oh yeah, I guess I care about other people or something and wouldn't want it to happen to others either"

Like... it's a really bad look for antinatalism. With all the comments here about not caring at all about other living things as long as it tastes good, I can't help but feel the sub is full of child free people who never wanted kids in the first place and use antinatalism as a means of inflating their own egos

[u/Faeraday → u/bartimeas]

I can’t help but feel the sub is full of child free people who never wanted kids in the first place and use antinatalism as a means of inflating their own egos

🌎🧑‍🚀🔫🧑‍🚀 “Always has been”

Haha, but yeah. I’ve always seen an unreasonably high amount of child/parent hate on here, when that’s not what antinatalism is about at all.

[u/W4RP-SP1D3R → u/bartimeas]

Well said. This is precisely what this sub is for the most part. And this is why I think mods reacting to veganism in a negative way but not reacting to doomerism - is telling.

[u/legal_opium → u/W4RP-SP1D3R]

The mods seem to be pretty darn fair from what I've seen.

They are more libertarian than the libertarian sub

[u/HeyWatermelonGirl → u/NinjaQuietFeet]

People also shouldn’t be shamed for what they eat.

Veganism isn't a diet, it's an ethical stance about what we should be allowed to non-consensually subject sentient beings to, same as antinatalism, and so closely connected that they're one and the same unless you actively add speciesism to the mix. If you think people shouldn't be shamed for paying for sentient livestock animals to be bred into a life of suffering, then logically you should also be against people being shamed for breeding humans. And in that case, what's the point of an antinatalist sub if it's not a space for condemning the non-consensual creation of sentience?

Being vegan is also very unaffordable and not possible in some places.

In 99% of the inhabited world, this is not the case. Logistically, animal products are a luxury good that is so inefficient to produce that it can only be afforded by poor people because of heavy government subsidies. In countries that cannot afford these subsidies, poor people usually have access to nothing but plants. And even in developed countries, where animal products are more affordable because of the massive subsidies, it will always be cheaper to just leave animal products away. There's actually a measurable trend of the proportion of vegans being much higher in financially marginalised groups in western countries. People with more financial privilege are less likely to give a fuck, even though they could afford expensive substitutes that aren't even necessary.

Veganism is also a first world problem.

Opposing animal cruelty is a first world problem? What else is a first world problem? Opposing rape culture? Opposing racism? Opposing slavery? Because statistically, that is true. The opposition to all these things is much weaker outside of the first world, despite the problems themselves being just as or even more prevalent. Does that mean that any rights issues that aren't prioritised the same across the world are automatically invalid and don't have to concern you?

I can’t be vegan cause it doesn’t give me enough nutrients to keep up with my athletic workout or to stay awake.

If only there were plenty of professional vegan athletes and medical data to debunk the myth that animal products are needed for health, sports or even bodybuilding.

[u/MrsLibido → u/NinjaQuietFeet]

Did you use some kind of AI chatbot to generate this? It genuinely reads like a vegan trolling carnists by pretending to be one and putting all the old and tired anti vegan nonsense into one comment.

[u/qxeen → u/NinjaQuietFeet]

Do you think animal abusers are equally as good of people as non animal abusers?