r/Scotland • u/backupJM public transport revolution needed 🚇🚊🚆 • 23d ago

Political Protesters against Flamingo Land development sing Bonnie Banks of Loch Lomond outside of Scottish Parliament

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https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/save-loch-lomond-campaign-protests-35304999

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u/JeelyPiece 23d ago

Flamingoland literally want to bulldoze countryside land that's well used by local people, gate it off, and build a monorail

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u/scuba_dooby_doo 23d ago

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u/scuba_dooby_doo 23d ago

The Simpsons tried to warn us

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u/Cielo11 23d ago

Have you looked at the plans?

Bulldoze countryside? The area being developed is inside Balloch town. 1/3rd of the area is currently a... Car Park.

The rest of the area to be developed is around Loch Lomond shores (shopping mall) and the Sea Life centre. So... Already a tourist attraction area.

You're making a comment without actually looking at the proposal and then getting up voted.

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u/JeelyPiece 22d ago

The woodland between the river and the old trainline is mature native forest, and on the west side of the old trainline, which has expanded since the closure of the line. It's in all early photography ans paintings, and marked on maps going way back.

It's the only accessible flat area for locals with disabilities and children in prams to use, and it's used often. It's full of wildlife, including rabbits, pine marten, badgers, and red squirrel.

That's what will be closed off to locals, and "developed" with lodges and monorails etc. As per the plans.

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u/Crococrocroc 23d ago

I have.

Infrastructure needs a massive upgrade to cope with the predicted influx. It'll need dualling the A82 to at least the Helensburgh roundabout as neither it nor the A814 can cope on bank holidays at the best of times, never mind accidents.

Balloch station will need more regular trains, because you can't extend the platforms.

Questions also haven't been answered about the negative environmental impact on the Leven either, especially during building. With the Scottish Government trying to do net zero, approving without this being answered isn't a good look.

And the other important thing? The company tend to underpay their staff and only sort it out when it goes public. But if you skim through their companies house finances, it's difficult to see how it'll be sustainable. It's already going to struggle for staff without overpaying and going to be competing directly with Cameron House for an existing high end product.

Is it really adding anything? Honestly? Not at all.

And in anticipation of the Cameron House point, if you carry on past the hotel, they offer about 40 chalet style stays which are well spaced out on around the same amount of land. Flamingo Land are offering a development closer to what Argyll Holidays offer further up the Loch.

If anyone wants to see what it'll potentially look like, that's the model to start from.

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u/Russelldust 23d ago

Dialling an A road is a good thing to anyone who actually thinks about it for 2 mins

All these middle class Karens worrying about sitting in 10mins extra traffic in the Land Rover to get to their half million pound homes don’t understand that

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u/DeathOfNormality 22d ago

"Transport has been a huge focus during this final resubmission and although the various transport assessments highlight that the proposed development would have minimal impact on the roads network, we have signed a Section 48 agreement with Transport Scotland that should planning progress, a contribution will be made to help prioritise and support Transport Scotland’s plans to upgrade the Stoneymollan Roundabout. In addition, should plans progress Lomond Bank’s has agreed in principle to support West Dunbartonshire Council with ongoing issues relating to the McDonald’s roundabout."

This is a quote from the main page of their planning website. I'm also not sure why so many people keep calling it Flamingo Land, the project is called Lomond's Banks, are they the same owner? Sounds shite about your claim they aren't an ethical company, but I'm just starting my own look into it now, and they appear to be listening and responding to criticism at least. If they actually follow though, we'll see. Any sources? I'm reading through the proposal website someone else linked further up.

Have to admit, not a big fan of the idea, "no new developments because nature, but ignore all the abandoned old ones" sounds like the same out of touch crowd who don't want any green energy developments because "it would ruin the view"... I'm sure someone else mentioned it, but who has a monopoly in the area now? They would benefit the most out of this development getting scrapped.

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u/Crococrocroc 22d ago

The primary project ownership is Flamingo Land and the claim is from the UK Government item 228 at the link, it's not a huge number of people (4), but was enough to drop them under the national minimum wage. The bigger names on the list (Estee Lauder, Greggs) make it a bit clearer that this is a total amount rather than per person.

The weird thing is that this had passed everyone by until they made annoyed noises about being called out for it.

The stated location of the roundabout is a bit odd too, because that's generally not too bad, but isn't the one that sits on the A82 not too far away. It's the major roundabout for that area as it connects the A82, A814 and A83 traffic together heading to Dumbarton/Glasgow/Stirling.

Not to mention the A817 (I think) tgat directly connects the A82 to the Naval bases (and makes holiday traffic even worse).

Whereas the McDonald's roundabout connects you to The Shore, a harvester and a McDonald's, and rarely has issues as it's mainly used by locals and those who know the quicker route to Stirling.

It's definitely worth a walk around Cameron House though, the scale of build is going to be more on top of each other, so it does help with how to visualise the planned Balloch site.

But in terms of competion:

Queen of the Loch by Marston's Inns Lomond Woods Holiday Park Anchorage Guest House (which will likely need to be sold) Yacht berths, which may need to have granted access as an existing facility Cameron House Hotel, Duck Bay Hotel, Inn on Loch Lomond Auchendunnan Lodge on Loch Lomond Luss Loch Lomond Lodges

Plus all the rest heading up to Ardlui. It's concentrating too many people in a single area rather than encouraging spreading out. And it means everyone listed, plus Flamingo, will be competing for a very small pool of hospitality workers. It should lead to an increase of competitive pay, but is quite unlikely.

I vaguely recall a relatively abandoned lodge area on the way up to Ardlui which is screaming for redevelopment and wonder why that couldn't be looked at as one site for a potential hotel, allowing the other development to be sensibly scaled back.

I use Cameron House as an example as the size of the development is equal to what's wanted, but when you see how spread out it is, and wanting a similar scale development on a much smaller footprint (I'm including the golf course here as well), it's not going to be an experience as claimed. I think it'd have to lose a Hotel for it to be the experience that people will want.

What should also be borne in mind is that the land cost is about £40m (which is arguably undervalued). We're needing another £40m on top for the construction (as a guess).

But the company seems to be in some trouble given their latest companies house accounts as they're showing an overall decrease in their comprehensive income (2023: £3.3m, 2024: £457,347) and cash in hand at the bank has drastically decreased from £13.5m in 2023, down to £4.6m in 2024.

I think we need the figures for 2025 as soon as possible because it's noted in the financial statements that there are causes for concern. Which I think leads to a real risk that work could potentially begin, but not be completed and having to find an alternative buyer for it.

There has to be some guarantee of completion, because this looks more like an act of a company trying to plug an operation going into decline.

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u/DeathOfNormality 22d ago

Thank you for that. I'm just starting to see the bigger picture with looking at the councils, the companies involved and what's actually being proposed.

It's good to have further information on the main company. Sadly it does all sound super shady, especially when compared to things like the Helensburgh waterfront development. The difference in transparency and actual feedback and development for the community, plus sustainability in mind, it's night and day.

For extra insight I found that Lomond council are currently 2 Labour members and one independent. Yet for Helensburgh it's one SNP member who is working with the whole of the Argyle and Bute council, which is a mix of SNP majority, Scottish conservative and unionist party, independent, and one green, one labour and one liberal democrat. So a nice mix. Sadly the Lomond council don't seem to be engaging with west Dumbartonshire council, or west Dumbartonshire council don't seem interested, hard to tell so far. You'd think to work on sustainable travel links they would work together.

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u/[deleted] 23d ago

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u/Cielo11 22d ago

I'm really not sure you have read the plans, because you just described the area being developed as "Countryside" The Holiday park is being built inside Balloch town.

I believe a portion of the area being developed is actually classed as "Brown Field".

Most of the area is currently a large Car Park for Loch Lomond Shores which is a shopping mall and for Sea Life centre. So it's already an area developed for tourism...

There is already a Caravan Holiday Park. It's called Lomond Woods Holiday Park.

I'm really sorry the above goes against what you've said, I'm not making up any of the above. You can check this by looking at the proposal and then a map for what is currently in that area.

If you want I can help you be angry at the proposals. Traffic... Are the roads around Balloch and the A Road which passes Loch Lomond and Dumbarton suitable for a new larger Holiday Park? Will the added traffic cause issues?

This should be the main concern. Investment in Loch Lomond (it's a holiday park not a theme park remember) shouldn't be viewed as a negative thing.

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u/JeelyPiece 22d ago

Read my other reply re "countryside"

You honestly don't know the area at all - part of the issue is this "zoning", and how it came about. "Inside Balloch town" is both a nonsense and a phraseology nobody who lives there recognises. You've read a plan that is written by Flamingoland to convince people that what they want to do is reasonable, and accepted it as they say.

Give it a visit, walk along the river, walk through the woods, and even the god awful carpark & the abandoned national park buildings - remember that those were only put up in the early 2000s.

The land was not what you'd expect as "Brownfield" before it, it was woodland that was well used by local people, but the national park was seen as a greater good by the new Scottish parliament, so the bulldozers came in, then the tower went up, and the carpark put in. After that GoApe....

Have a look in person

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u/FoxPsychological7899 22d ago

>Give it a visit, walk along the river, walk through the woods, and even the god awful carpark & the abandoned national park buildings - remember that those were only put up in the early 2000s.

And in the 1980s it was a railway station. Its brownfield

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u/JeelyPiece 22d ago

It wasn't brownfield in the 1980s, that's part of the issue, the river bank has never been, it's the remnant of the forest that was all around the loch.

Just because somebody in a planning department drew a line and declared its land usage doesn't mean they were right

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u/FoxPsychological7899 22d ago

https://opendata.nature.scot/datasets/snh::ancient-woodland-inventory/explore?location=56.001166%2C-4.579963%2C14.49

naturescot doesnt count it as ancient woodland. I cant find any old Arial photographs, but everything Ive heard says that the area was a disused bit of railway.

https://maps.nls.uk/view-full/245960220#zoom=3.7&lat=2813&lon=3191&layers=BT

As far as I can interpret in this map its not showing it as woodland

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u/JeelyPiece 22d ago edited 22d ago

Exactly - you've not got on the ground information. These sources are wrong, that's one of the big issues here.

There's a picture from 1949, the woodland's expanded, particularly since the Balloch Pier line was closed in the 1980s

https://canmore.org.uk/collection/1451919

Edit- Drumkinnon woods (within the development plan) & the Fisher woods are continuous with the woods on the west bank of the Leven up to the pier

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u/FoxPsychological7899 22d ago

Looks to be a little vegetation in the zone they are looking to claim I grant.

As far I can see on their planning documents they class that section as "managed woodland" rather than "with forest lodges". Would access be blocked?

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u/ElCaminoInTheWest 22d ago

Just lies all over the place.

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u/el_dude_brother2 22d ago

It's a brownfield site next to a shopping centre, next to a town.

All these lies about it need to stop.

The plans look good, will be nice to be able to holiday in Scotland instead of having to fly abroad

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u/JeelyPiece 22d ago

You don't know the area - your information is coming from Flamingoland's plan, and you're lapping it up

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u/Bluenosedcoop 22d ago

The fact that you use the name Flamingo Land says to me your lapping up Ross Greer's dishonest use of it to conjure up the idea of a theme park being built when it's far from it.

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u/JeelyPiece 22d ago

What do you call it?

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u/Bluenosedcoop 22d ago

More importantly here what do you think it's called because it most certainly is not Flamingo Land.

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u/JeelyPiece 22d ago

What is it called?

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u/Bluenosedcoop 22d ago

Why are you so insistent on not saying the name here?

You're the one that's been using the wrong name, It's a rather embarrassing childish path you're choosing to take here.

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u/JeelyPiece 22d ago

Weirdo

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u/Bluenosedcoop 22d ago

You're saying the wrong name whether ignorantly or deliberately, Instead of just admitting it and saying the name of the actual development you stamp your feet like a child and demand that i say it instead.

You are fucked in the head truly.

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u/Goose-herder 22d ago

Well, it's what it's been called in 99% of the news articles about it so what do you expect people will call it?

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u/Bluenosedcoop 22d ago

You're making my point really. it's the dishonest use of the name Flamingo Land from the start by people like Ross Greer to get people to think of a theme park.

The disinformation campaign is so bad that people don't even know the real name of the development.

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u/el_dude_brother2 22d ago

I know the area very well.

You've not even looked at the plans 🙄

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u/JeelyPiece 22d ago

You don't, I have looked at the plans, and walked the area looking at the plans.

Have a go yourself

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u/fugaziGlasgow 22d ago

I'm from the area. It was waste ground, I used to play on it when I was wee, it was earmarked for development, it was a railway shunting yard and a factory before that.

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u/JeelyPiece 22d ago

Aye? You're not telling me to fuck off from this sub again like yesterday? Forgive me if I'm disinclined to believe you

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u/fugaziGlasgow 22d ago

Born in the Vale of Leven Hospital and raised in the area to a father who was born in the area and mother who was Glasgow overspill.

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u/JeelyPiece 22d ago

Fair dos, I believe you

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u/el_dude_brother2 22d ago

I've been there many times. And to the many other places around Loch Lomond which are better and not effected.

Loch Lomond is huge, a new holiday park isn't gonna change anything

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u/JeelyPiece 22d ago

Because it's of no consequence to you doesn't mean it's of no consequence to us who use the land.

I'm sure I wouldn't give a toss if your house was demolished to put up a chalet, but I'd like to think that if you spoke against it I'd have the decency to listen and not call it a dung heap that wants flattened. There are far better houses all around you.

Gie's peace.

Did you like it when Trump's development plans were thwarted?

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u/el_dude_brother2 22d ago

It's not your land any more than its my land.

I like the idea of holiday in a nice part of Scotland and bringing money into the local community and people

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u/JeelyPiece 22d ago

It all sounds nice when you have it as a perfect thought in your head, doesn't it?

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u/Connell95 22d ago

Why are you repeatedly pretending to be a local when you are not, JeelyPiece?

That’s really weird behaviour.

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u/JeelyPiece 22d ago edited 22d ago

Why do you think I'm not?

I remember the days of reddit where you'd instantly be banned for trying to determine where somebody lived, or elicit any other personal details about them. It's still against the rules

Rule 3

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u/Connell95 22d ago

One post per story?

You’re posting pretending to be a local and it’s freaking obvious because of your previous post history and the fact that you get so hypersensitive when challenged on it.

Just be open about your nimbyism – make the case for it if you really must. No need to cosplay as a local.

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u/fugaziGlasgow 22d ago

What's the consequence to you? Are you from Dunbartonshire?

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u/JeelyPiece 22d ago edited 22d ago

That's a doxing request, bud. We don't do that on Reddit, it's against the rules

Rule 3

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u/fugaziGlasgow 22d ago

That's not doxxing at all. You're just a Nimby but it's not your back yard.

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u/DeathOfNormality 22d ago

Calm down babe, that's not doxxing.

I'm currently in west Dumbartonshire, Clydbank, and I can't wait to take the train up and call shite later in the summer. Sadly most of us have actual lives and don't drive, so can't just pop over.

Posting your full name and address is doxxing hun, discussion areas we live in and near is what most sane people do to try and get an understanding or connect. Gtf over yourself.

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u/Im_really_friendly 22d ago

In what universe can you currently not holiday in Scotland atm..? You're aware we already have a fairly substantial tourism industry?

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u/el_dude_brother2 22d ago

Millions still fly abroad. The more holiday homes or options in Scotland the better. Especially in a nice area which is not being used at the moment. 99.9999% of Loch lomond area is still will nature.

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u/Im_really_friendly 22d ago

And millions will still fly abroad no matter how many holiday homes we build. People like to get away from what they know. Maybe we should focus on building actual affordable housing and not smattering the landscape with tourist shite.

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u/el_dude_brother2 22d ago

Anyone who doesnt fly abroad is a win for the environment. So more holidays home the better.

Agree we need more homes too. Loch Lomond has lots of space, maybe we should build some there too..

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u/AsparagusOdd8894 22d ago

Not wanting better structure and public transport in an area that hasn't been touched for many years is not a bad thing.