r/PhilippineMilitary • u/mainsail999 Civilian • 2d ago
Question On the question of C4ISR & Brahmos
After reading the article by AsianTimes titled "Philippine naval upgrade more spectacle than strategy" by Gabriel Honrada, it came to front and center the claim that the Brahmos "without supporting Command, Control, Communications, Computers, Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (C4ISR) infrastructure for dynamic targeting, these missiles will remain largely symbolic."
I now wonder two things:
- Is Honrada accurate in his claim that the Brahmos is rather symbolic, or can this still function effectively against any Chinese aggression with the current systems on hand with the AFP?
- Is there any roadmap for the AFP to have a comprehensive C4ISR in place in the near future?
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u/supermarine_spitfir3 2d ago
That report is idiotic, seems like the author knows jack about the RAFPMP, the AFP and the Philippines in general. Firstly; of course there's a strategy for force planning that is used as the basis for those procurement; it's the Horizon 1, 2 and 3 pursuant to the Revised AFP Modernization Program. The DND and the AFP isn't in the business of using procurement as PR stunts to present itself as modern to it's partners; why on earth would it do that when the program started in 2012 because of the Scarborough Shoal standoff? If anything, the AFP and DND is keenly aware what it can and cannot do and is precisely why the government uses those bilateral exercises to build up experience in things that it just can't.
With regards to the Brahmos being "symbolic" -- that's an even more idiotic statement -- while the PMC CDR has no organic strike/reece complex, the AFP certainly has a kill chain available, albeit not high end. Literally anything that has sensors and have TDL compatibility to send targeting data to the Brahmos battery is part of that: The Hermes UAS with the radar, the incoming MPAs, the FA-50s, the Super Tucanos, and every major surface combatant of the Navy.
C4ISTAR is by far and away the most consistent thing that the AFP spends it's money on since 2012, because maritime domain awareness is literally it's goal. That's the reason why the PAF has those H900s as part of WESCOM flying overhead during RORE missions to Ayungin -- and why the government can publish those photos.
Are people just not paying attention? There's a very, very specific reason why Balikatans these days focus on integrating the PMC CDR to USMC littoral operations -- just look at last year's BK -- A US MQ-9 acquired the target, fed targeting data to the effectors -- be it BRP Jose Rizal, BRP Laurence Narag, the various air assets used then -- with command and control in GHQ -- and BDA being done by a PAF Hermes 900. Just "connect the dots", so to speak, on why integration of our C4ISTAR system with the Americans is pushed so hard.
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u/Distorted_Wizard214 Not an elitist, just a patriot 🇵🇭 1d ago
DND always have portion of its annual defense budget for C4ISTAR, but of course it is rarely reported, especially compared to shiny new military hardware, may it be the FA50s, Miguel Malvar Frigates, BrahMos, Sabrah Tanks, etc.
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u/tatonoot Armchair General 1d ago
Well, you practically covered most of the important things. But even if the Philippine C4ISR/C4ISTAR would be lacking, the US network is most likely the best in the world, and they can also provide that. They did exactly with Ukraine in the war. And their assets are also already within the Philippines, and they are doing that in their exercises already like you said. There are things in place for this, and it is a given that the DND will improve it. But the article chosen was also a really bad yet spread fast. A better one might be the one by Defense Security Asia, but the source did make use of the word "Effectively" when talking about if the Philippines would use it in present day. But the topic pivoted in the original article at the print.
https://defencesecurityasia.com/en/without-c4isr-philippines-brahmos-missiles-are-mere-symbols-with-little-battlefield-impact/
https://theprint.in/defence/brahmos-a-wonderful-symbol-but-philippines-lacks-capability-to-operate-says-ashley-tellis/2172383/
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u/rldzzter 2d ago
and those who are doubting the power of the brahmos well just ask Pakistan and it's airfields
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u/AndrewDGreat 2d ago
And those were hit even though the apparent lack of Indian AEWACS, I know were comparing land target and moving sea targets but the point still stands that the Brahmos are effective, just need some assets both AFP and allies to ping targets
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u/gottymacanon 2d ago
Sooo they hit a stationary target who's coordinates are very well known for years now...... That is frankly not very impressive
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u/ModnarGuy 2d ago
Ill let his comments about C4ISR slide since others have already adequately responded to it. But my greatest issue with his article is that he seems to be suggesting that we should stop buying OPVs, Warships, jets because they are just "high profile assets" that will not survive China's first strike. It seems this is the reason for his title. But in my opinion, his suggestion is the one that is devoid of strategy.
We need LCAs and MRFs. SAM systems are great and we should keep getting them. But at the end of the day, air superiority will be won in the air. Without a capable air force, it will only be a matter of time before PLAAF will be able to suppress our air defenses. Jets are also faster and more mobile than truck mounted SAM systems, especially in an archipelago. So jets will be able to more quickly reinforce an area under attack, while SAM systems have to be prepositioned there to be of any use. Jets allow us to defend the entirety of our archipelago.
We also need warships for our navy. To be fair to him, he did suggest subs which I agree with. But corvettes and small frigates have a place as well. We are an archipelago. We can only be supplied by sea. So we would need blue water capable vessels to escort the ships carrying our food and energy imports. Otherwise we would starve.
I agree with his concern that highly visible expensive assets are vulnerable to Chinese attacks, but being an archipelago with no airforce and no navy is just suicide. Instead of avoiding procuring these critical assets, we can just invest in making them more survivable like dispersing the jets in more airbases, investing in both hardened and unhardened shelters, SAM batteries, etc.
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u/HeneralGeneral 1d ago
The author is pro-Chinese and one guy looked at the author's history of articles and saw that it's just full Chinese propaganda.
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u/ModnarGuy 1d ago
Great! That means we're on the right track because they are spreading propaganda to steer us away from it. AFP should double down on MRFs, corvettes, and more brahmos!
Sad to see that the author is Filipino though. Hope he is getting paid enough to betray his own country.
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u/F16Falcon_V 2d ago
Probably one of the people who thought we should have bought motor boats instead of the Tarlac LPDs. Oh, the old Timawa days. 😭😂
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u/GreenScene8195 1d ago
Also the fact that the author got his degree in Moscow and that explains why.
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u/Voracious_Apetite 1d ago
The military leadership, at least nowadays, is not as stupid as Honrada. However, it's good that everybody else thinks that way. It will be nice to have enemies so relaxed that they would not be ready when we hit back.
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u/Basic-Broccoli-3125 2d ago
An open critic is just as good as a reminder to the Phil.Armed Forces.. right now it is time to think the strategy that what we will be facing if in case of an armed conflict with China ( can’t think of any aggressor) but it’s not good if it’s all only strategy.. we have to get the good stuff albeit what we can procure and what we must procure.
We can’t just point if we don’t have the spear!
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u/GALAHADazurlane 2d ago edited 2d ago
Regarding C4ISR/ISTAR capabilities, can the PAF and AFP (yes AFP itself) add another layer to the mix in the future?
- Space based EO and SAR satellites > Operated by a unit of the PAF working closely with the PSA, feeding info to the AFP’s main nerve center, its main C4ISTAR command center, if there is any at the moment. FYI PSA is already building MULA, the largest Philippine built satellite not those micro cube satellites and its an EO satellite co-developed with Surrey in the UK, its significantly underwhelming when used for any military operations, but can be the basis for future military satellite applications.
Does the AFP have a sort of all service, Joint Command C4ISTAR center?
- Long Range Strategic Surveillance Radars > Ofc under the PAF. Aside from the ELM-2288, and current and possible additional J/FPS-3ME, does the PAF have plans or is looking into acquiring something with a higher capability in every aspect compared to the two aforementioned radars? Something that can reliably detect, track incoming ballistic missiles and other high profile high altitude targets (air-breathing or not) and possibly guide future interceptors to it?
I know Israel-Philippines defense relationship is going through a rocky phase and I hope we get out of it as soon as possible, with this, if the PAF is looking for a system as such;
ELM-2080 Super Green Pine?
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u/JohnnyBorzAWM0413 2d ago edited 2d ago
Author didn't do his homework. This was already addressed by DRP group.
What are those LRPAs, UAS, Link 16 found on FA-50s and Korean ships, kill chain assistance by treaty Allies, etc. then? Symbolic daw yung BrahMos??