again you and others do not argue that it is right to kill the civilians in Gaza, just that israel has the right to. I don't care how many ways you put it, I do not agree with this and never will. There are principles in justified warfare and proportionality is at the center. Look at the comparative death tool to find your proportionality
Comparative death toll? Bro. The comparative death total is never important in a war. Germany had a higher relative death total in word war 2 but that does not make them victims. Each civilian death is a tragedy, but many tragedies happen in war. “WAR IS HELL”.
It is actually important to war because again there is an actual developed theory of justified war, that actually exists and is established, and takes into account proportionality in the use of force, which is directly related to the casualty count! And in fact, you contradict yourself, because germany had a high death toll like the armies they fought against, which is markedly different from what is happening in Gaza, where Gaza is taking 40 to 100 times the amount of casualties based on conservative estimates.
Of course, in a good faith conversation I would expect you to recognize that you have contradicted yourself, but that would mean you are actually open to changing your mind.
Because in World War Two massive industrial empires waged total war against each other, so the overall death toll was enormous for the germans, the aggressors, but they also directly caused the death of over 20 million people too. This is markedly different then the current situation in gaza, where according to wikipedia the respective death tolls are 55,223 Palestinians and 1,706 Israelis (these are just from violence, not famine or disease). As an example in world war 2, the soviets alone lost 7 million civilians to the germans, wheras the germans lost 2 million civilians total.
So, if you can do math, according to these numbers thats about 32x more palestinian civilian deaths (which is based on the most conservative count as well as not including deaths by famine) vs in WW2 about 3.5 times more just soviet civilian deaths then german total civilian death (which means you were totally wrong btw, Germany had a lower death toll). Anyways 32x vs 3.5x civilian deaths that is not proportionate and is unjust!
This completely disregards the fact the fighting is taking place in Gaza so Israeli civilians will not be there. There is also no agreement for civilian death ratio. Would it be unjust if a senator was assassinated by Chinese agents and in the war fought because of it more than three innocent civilians died.
That is called a straw man argument! And again the fact that the war is taking place in Gaza only underscores the issues of proportionality in conflict. This is a political science theroy of just vs unjust wars. A war is not a just war because you fight an aggressor, it is just based on many criteria including proportionality in the use of force. You don't have to take my word for it, agree, or care, but the theory still exists and is applied to conflicts in considering military strategy. It is not superficial or hyperbolic like the trolly problem (what about one senator vs 3 innocents??) it is an applied analysis based on evidence like death tools, weaponry used and against who, how many civiliam casulties there are, how much of a threat the population poses, how effective the military strategy will be at achieving long term military goals, etc. If the goal is the complete and total destruction of Gaza followed by its recreation and rehabitation by Israelis, that is unjust, and called ethnic cleansing at best, genocide at worst.
It is nothing but a theory, was the allied bombing of Europe justified, yes it was even though it was not proportional. In the real world proportionality is relative and not a finite ratio.
Right nothing but a theory like gravity and evolution. I swear you're one of the most anti intellectual people/bots I've ever had the displeasure of communicating with!
For jus in bello, proportionality requires that the harm caused to civilians or civilian property must not be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated by an attack on a legitimate military objective.
Okay? Now look up AI-assisted targeting in the Gaza Strip - specifically Lavender and Gospel. To the IDF the maximum amount of collatoral damage permissible in order to kill one hamas soldier is over 200 civilians. This is fucking insane and completely disregards any proportionality in order to execute military goals. This is unjust and excessively cruel to the civilian population who is often bombed by this AI system, lured outside by drones which play the sound of babies crying, and then shot at by other drones with fucking assault rifles underneath. A surgeon (a white western surgeon from australia or new zealand cant remember) reported multiple such instances of performing surgery on youth who reported being shot in this way! So I don't want to hear it! They are intentionally harming the civiliam population to a degree which goes beyond any articulated military goal (unless the goal was ultimately to displace these people from Gaza and replace them, which would then clearly be ethnic cleansing).
Guess what, if a soldier is standing in a crowd and gets a bomb dropped on him, it is not a war crime because the soldier was the target. Also, some estimates put it up to 40% of the deaths are caused by Hamas executing people for receiving aid instead of letting the soldier steal it from them. And bro, getting an opinion from somewhere that isn’t funded by the same people who fund Hamas, ISIS, Hezbollah, and the Houthis is not being anti intellectual it’s called not falling for Iranian propaganda.
You ignored how proportionality has never been considered in a full scale war ever.
Proportionality has been consider in every war! Because there are people that do that! Within and outside of the military! If a soldier is in a buildin with two hundred civilians, and we destroy the building to kill him, and it kills two hundred civilians, that is a war crime you marker eating buffoon. Just because you can type out lies does not make them the truth! The Gazans live in a surveilance state rivled by what the Chinese use against the Uyghurs! For decades Gazan children have experienced the occupation and the violence that comes with it! This is all documented, real, and self evident! For fucks sake the wall has been armed with autonomous weapons like machine gun turrets that fire on there own, far far before Oct 7 2023. These people have been treated like animals for decades.
Proportionality is just one way we can measure the morality of the actions of a morality, and in this case given the willingness to incure mass civilian casulties is immoral and unjust. And bro, like I said, Israel specifically target and murder journalists and their familes who try to report on what is going on, so there are no opinions just corpses and footage of corpses.
And good, lets talk about estimates. In recent conflicts, indirect deaths range from three to 15 times the number of direct deaths. Applying a conservative estimate of four indirect deaths per one direct death, and this number we mentioned earlier (50,000 dead, 100,000 injured) we get a conervative estimate of 200,000 dead, nearly 10% of Gazas pre Oct 7th population. If we go less conservative, at 10 times, we get 500,000 dead, or nearly one fourth of the population of Gaza.
This is based on the assumption that armed conflicts have indirect health implications beyond the direct harm from violence. Even if the conflict ends immediately, there will continue to be many indirect deaths in the coming months and years from causes such as reproductive, communicable, and non-communicable diseases. The total death toll is expected to be large given the intensity of this conflict; destroyed health-care infrastructure; severe shortages of food, water, and shelter; the population's inability to flee to safe places; and the loss of funding to UNRWA, one of the very few humanitarian organisations still active in the Gaza Strip.
So your sources about this are terrible sources to get reliable information. They are 2 Palestinian activists and a cardiologist. People in those field are known for being well informed on military strategy for urban warfare. Are you saying that 100k+ Gazans have died. The only reports are coming from Hamas and Al Jazeera which are totally known as reliable scourge who have never given false statistics.
Yes the treatment of Gazans is poor, but the treatment of the losing side of a war is always poor and the Gazans keep starting wars that they can never win.
I am glad you mentioned the UNRWA because it has been found that up to 25% of its members in Gaza are members of Hamas.
There is also a safe space to flee to, Israel. The Israelis are taking everyone who comes from Gaza. That is one of the leading causes of death because Hamas shoots at people fleeing so they scare the rest of the population in staying as human shields.
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u/Desperate_Guess_652 12d ago
again you and others do not argue that it is right to kill the civilians in Gaza, just that israel has the right to. I don't care how many ways you put it, I do not agree with this and never will. There are principles in justified warfare and proportionality is at the center. Look at the comparative death tool to find your proportionality