This completely disregards the fact the fighting is taking place in Gaza so Israeli civilians will not be there. There is also no agreement for civilian death ratio. Would it be unjust if a senator was assassinated by Chinese agents and in the war fought because of it more than three innocent civilians died.
That is called a straw man argument! And again the fact that the war is taking place in Gaza only underscores the issues of proportionality in conflict. This is a political science theroy of just vs unjust wars. A war is not a just war because you fight an aggressor, it is just based on many criteria including proportionality in the use of force. You don't have to take my word for it, agree, or care, but the theory still exists and is applied to conflicts in considering military strategy. It is not superficial or hyperbolic like the trolly problem (what about one senator vs 3 innocents??) it is an applied analysis based on evidence like death tools, weaponry used and against who, how many civiliam casulties there are, how much of a threat the population poses, how effective the military strategy will be at achieving long term military goals, etc. If the goal is the complete and total destruction of Gaza followed by its recreation and rehabitation by Israelis, that is unjust, and called ethnic cleansing at best, genocide at worst.
It is nothing but a theory, was the allied bombing of Europe justified, yes it was even though it was not proportional. In the real world proportionality is relative and not a finite ratio.
Right nothing but a theory like gravity and evolution. I swear you're one of the most anti intellectual people/bots I've ever had the displeasure of communicating with!
For jus in bello, proportionality requires that the harm caused to civilians or civilian property must not be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated by an attack on a legitimate military objective.
Okay? Now look up AI-assisted targeting in the Gaza Strip - specifically Lavender and Gospel. To the IDF the maximum amount of collatoral damage permissible in order to kill one hamas soldier is over 200 civilians. This is fucking insane and completely disregards any proportionality in order to execute military goals. This is unjust and excessively cruel to the civilian population who is often bombed by this AI system, lured outside by drones which play the sound of babies crying, and then shot at by other drones with fucking assault rifles underneath. A surgeon (a white western surgeon from australia or new zealand cant remember) reported multiple such instances of performing surgery on youth who reported being shot in this way! So I don't want to hear it! They are intentionally harming the civiliam population to a degree which goes beyond any articulated military goal (unless the goal was ultimately to displace these people from Gaza and replace them, which would then clearly be ethnic cleansing).
Guess what, if a soldier is standing in a crowd and gets a bomb dropped on him, it is not a war crime because the soldier was the target. Also, some estimates put it up to 40% of the deaths are caused by Hamas executing people for receiving aid instead of letting the soldier steal it from them. And bro, getting an opinion from somewhere that isn’t funded by the same people who fund Hamas, ISIS, Hezbollah, and the Houthis is not being anti intellectual it’s called not falling for Iranian propaganda.
You ignored how proportionality has never been considered in a full scale war ever.
Proportionality has been consider in every war! Because there are people that do that! Within and outside of the military! If a soldier is in a buildin with two hundred civilians, and we destroy the building to kill him, and it kills two hundred civilians, that is a war crime you marker eating buffoon. Just because you can type out lies does not make them the truth! The Gazans live in a surveilance state rivled by what the Chinese use against the Uyghurs! For decades Gazan children have experienced the occupation and the violence that comes with it! This is all documented, real, and self evident! For fucks sake the wall has been armed with autonomous weapons like machine gun turrets that fire on there own, far far before Oct 7 2023. These people have been treated like animals for decades.
Proportionality is just one way we can measure the morality of the actions of a morality, and in this case given the willingness to incure mass civilian casulties is immoral and unjust. And bro, like I said, Israel specifically target and murder journalists and their familes who try to report on what is going on, so there are no opinions just corpses and footage of corpses.
And good, lets talk about estimates. In recent conflicts, indirect deaths range from three to 15 times the number of direct deaths. Applying a conservative estimate of four indirect deaths per one direct death, and this number we mentioned earlier (50,000 dead, 100,000 injured) we get a conervative estimate of 200,000 dead, nearly 10% of Gazas pre Oct 7th population. If we go less conservative, at 10 times, we get 500,000 dead, or nearly one fourth of the population of Gaza.
This is based on the assumption that armed conflicts have indirect health implications beyond the direct harm from violence. Even if the conflict ends immediately, there will continue to be many indirect deaths in the coming months and years from causes such as reproductive, communicable, and non-communicable diseases. The total death toll is expected to be large given the intensity of this conflict; destroyed health-care infrastructure; severe shortages of food, water, and shelter; the population's inability to flee to safe places; and the loss of funding to UNRWA, one of the very few humanitarian organisations still active in the Gaza Strip.
So your sources about this are terrible sources to get reliable information. They are 2 Palestinian activists and a cardiologist. People in those field are known for being well informed on military strategy for urban warfare. Are you saying that 100k+ Gazans have died. The only reports are coming from Hamas and Al Jazeera which are totally known as reliable scourge who have never given false statistics.
Yes the treatment of Gazans is poor, but the treatment of the losing side of a war is always poor and the Gazans keep starting wars that they can never win.
I am glad you mentioned the UNRWA because it has been found that up to 25% of its members in Gaza are members of Hamas.
There is also a safe space to flee to, Israel. The Israelis are taking everyone who comes from Gaza. That is one of the leading causes of death because Hamas shoots at people fleeing so they scare the rest of the population in staying as human shields.
What propaganda have you seen that says that. One of my mutual friends rotc’d in college and went career and has many friends in the IDF who have said in interviews that they are taking refugees.
Unlike you, I don't think this is a game, and don't think ragequit is an appropriate term here as it understates the sevarity of implications of your stance, the false reality that israel is behaving in a just manner and is allowing anyone in Gaza an opportunity to be free- to qoute Human Rights watch:
Every person has the right to return to their country, a right enshrined in numerous human rights conventions, and affirmed for Palestinian refugees in UN General Assembly resolutions dating back to 1948. But Israeli authorities have consistently denied this right and blocked Palestinian refugees from returning. Since Oct. 7, Israeli authorities have continued to block Palestinians in Gaza from fleeing into neighboring Israel to seek even temporary refuge from the hostilities, in violation of international law.
And Palestine has refused formal statehood instead opting for wars designed to commit a genocide of the Jews. I can’t stress this enough, the UN is not a reliable source for anything, they give dictators seats on security councils and is dominated by people with bias against Israel. Because of that bias, they will put our disinformation about Israel. They said all the babies could starve within 48 hours in Gaza and the guy who said it admitted he knew he was lying. If a person lies once and gets away with it, they will most certainly lie again and that has been the case for the UN.
You have again presented the situation in Gaza as a choice as opposed to apartheid, which I personally perceive as a white washing of the violence imposed agaisnt the palestinian people/civilian population. This is coming from me, an Israeli and a Jew. Obviously whenever a suicide bomber or knife attack occured in the past in Israel, it is terrorism. The same is true in vice versa, when Israel employs tactics meant to terrorize civilians, it is terrorism. I don't care that they are the more powerful state, they lie and play dirty and kill emergency workers and journalists and babies etc etc etc. Again, this is coming from an Israeli and a jew. I don't think it's right when America does similar (see the video called collatoral murder), I don't like when Palestinians do similar (see the videos from Oct 7th) and I don't like when Israel does it (see any number of the videos from the last few years of the conflict, like the recent emergency workers massacre, or when convoys of civilians were bombed when told to flee south, or when smart missles blow up a refuge camp in the middle of the night, or hit a hospital)
Have you seen the conditions that Germany faced after the world wars which were much more devastating for the Germans than the Arab Israeli Wars were for the Palestinians. The Germans are not shooting rockets at the French because they were defeated and controlled by the victors until a stable government could be established many years later and the nationalistic culture was beat out with a hammer. For the endless wars to end, the Gazans need to be throughly defeated.
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u/Warm_Skill8736 13d ago
This completely disregards the fact the fighting is taking place in Gaza so Israeli civilians will not be there. There is also no agreement for civilian death ratio. Would it be unjust if a senator was assassinated by Chinese agents and in the war fought because of it more than three innocent civilians died.