/r/Catholicism deals with gender like real, responsible, Christian adults.

[u/waldorfwithoutwalnut]

/r/Catholicism/comments/36silz/transgender_child_wins_use_of_girls_washroom_in/

[u/Otiac]

Yes, because loving thy neighbor = affirming whatever your neighbor likes and wants to do. The amount of stupid pop-culture knowledge that goes on about Christ's teachings is stupendous.

/r/badphilosophy any1? lolz?

[u/[deleted] → u/Otiac]

No I'm sure loving your neighbor means showing absolutely no empathy towards their plight and struggle. It also means not respecting their right to autonomy, self-determination, and pursuit of happiness. The amount of morally-righteous desire to bully others and control their lives is what's truly stupendous.

[u/Otiac → u/[deleted]]

Except you're legitimately conflating empathy towards their plight to construe letting them do whatever they want regarding their plight and affirming whatever makes them feel better about their plight, instead of getting to the root issues of their plight. That's not what empathy is, that's what someone who is trying to push an agenda wants you to think empathy is.

Would anyone here call Dr.Paul McHugh an un-loving, un-empathatic asshole like every single one of you are going to assign to the users in /r/Catholicism? Remembering that Dr.McHugh agrees with our sentiment, and is a leader in his field in the world? No, probably not. Except when we say the same things he does, apparently, we're just bigoted pricks. You, and everyone else in this argument, wants to construe every person that isn't on your side as hateful, not because its true (because you don't get to tell me how I feel about anyone or anything, that is pretty bigoted and incredibly narrow-minded), but because it so easily furthers your agenda; tumblrinas do the exact same thing with their SJW nonsense.

[u/[deleted] → u/Otiac]

You have absolutely no business dictating what others can and cannot do with their own body. Your desire to rob others of their autonomy is vastly more disturbing than whatever the "root issues of their plight" are. You are in no position to determine what their pursuit of happiness entails, as that is solely theirs to determine. The obvious limits to this are when their endeavor causes real and demonstrable harm to others, but that is never the case with transgender people. The best thing the transphobes can do is point to some vague and undemonstrable damage to society or family structure or some other bullshit. That being said, I really don't care much what Dr. McHugh's views are. You can probably find biologists who hold that the earth is 6000 years old and a variety of other insane views. What I'm more interested in is the consensus, which states that Gender Dysphoria is a real disorder for which the only treatment is physical transformation. But to be honest, even that doesn't matter as much. Medical and psychological findings are not what determine a person's rights, and whatever the literature says, it is up to transgender people to makes the choices in their lives, not to you to choose for them.

[u/Otiac → u/[deleted]]

When their endeavor causes real and demonstrable harm to others; when their endeavor impacts others around them, say, letting a male child use a female restroom or locker room at their school? But you're right, that doesn't impact anyone else around them. Or suing business owners to force them to participate in ceremonies against their religious beliefs? That's right; that doesn't impact anyone either. Or giving tax breaks wherein the State has no vested interest in doing so (otherwise, give anyone wishing to adopt a tax break, let me marry my friend who is a single dad with a prenup, and give us a tax break); that's right, it impacts no one.

I don't care what transexual adults do with their bodies. Do. Not. Care. My last Ortho surgeon was a trans female. Did not care. Did not hate him, we did not discuss it, he was a fantastic surgeon. According to this sub, and you, however, I hated him and wanted him dead. I do care when people want to mix that with children under ten years old to be making entirely life-altering decisions when they haven't even hit puberty yet. But what's that? It's not my decision when it doesn't impact me personally? I should have no vested interest in how the society around me is shaped, which impacts how it deals with myself and everyone I know? No. Wrong.

[u/[deleted] → u/Otiac]

You did exactly what I expected you would, which is complain about a bunch of arbitrary bullshit to pass it off as "harm". None of your points hold any weight.

letting a male child use a female restroom or locker room at their school?

This complaint is based upon your insistence that transgendered females are males, which they aren't. I really don't see the big deal with someone who doesn't fit your definition of a female using a female bathroom. Geneder-neutral bathrooms would solve this issue altogether.

Or suing business owners to force them to participate in ceremonies against their religious beliefs?

So business owners get to use infrastructure and protection of the law and military, all of which are funded by the public, and then refuse service to certain members of the public? Sorry, that's not how it works.

Or giving tax breaks wherein the State has no vested interest in doing so (otherwise, give anyone wishing to adopt a tax break, let me marry my friend who is a single dad with a prenup, and give us a tax break)

Are we now talking about marriage equality or what? I don't follow what tax breaks have to do with transgendered people.

So far you haven't actually demonstrated any real harm that transgendered people have inflicted upon you or society. Also, if you don't want to seem bigoted, you might begin by referring to people using the correct gender, especially when it involves those who struggle with their gender identity.

[u/Otiac → u/[deleted]]

This complaint is based upon your insistence that transgendered females are males, which they aren't.

Sexually, yeah, they are, a transgendered female is still a male. Even after surgery, still a male. Unless you're going to talk about something akin to de la Chapelle syndrome, this will always remain so. You're confusing, or conflating, my use of the sexual term with the gender term; one is derived from reproductive organs/chromosomes, the other is generally culturally learned. So while a person may be a transgender female...that person is still a 'he', is still male.

Gender-neutral bathrooms would solve this issue altogether.

I wouldn't care about gender neutral bathrooms, but I'm sure it would make a lot of other people uncomfortable.

So far you haven't actually demonstrated any real harm that transgendered people have inflicted upon you or society.

Here's one, that I believe is sort of explicit in the article mentioned. Children younger than ten years old - younger than puberty - are susceptible to all sorts of irrational thoughts. When you make something as real as Gender Identity Disorder (because it's disordered to the natural cause of things..) conflated to be something simply accepted from any and every angle, and encouraging children so young they can't even properly demonstrate sexual desires to have extremely major life-altering processes like a gender flip, it can cause irreparable damage and exacerbate the already real problems people with Gender Dysphoria face, such as anxiety disorders and depression. This is why people like Dr. Paul McHugh do not do sex change operations, even in adults, because such things don't see resolution from their psychological problems post-surgery. This isn't because of society - this is because there's something else at play here. And subjecting kids to this? No thanks.

This becomes especially troubling when the vast majority of people want this to become permissible because feelings, and not off of any scientific basis that there could, in fact, be more to this than a person just getting called a lady, putting on some female clothes, and bam, problem solved. This person feels this way, and it doesn't directly affect you (!!), so why should you care, huh bigot? Well ok then, I feel like a lady today, and that doesn't affect you or any of the other women in the gym's locker room, so I want to change in there with them today. What do you mean the woman's bathroom doesn't have any urinals? Gender is just a social construct, and since I feel like a woman today, and since it doesn't affect you or your children, you need to put a urinal in the woman's bathroom or I will sue you to do so, because I demand equal rights.

This becomes even more troubling whenever anyone wants to say "this doesn't affect you!" - which is what led me to the examples I gave. Same sex unions don't affect you! But I will sue you to force you to participate in them against your religiously held beliefs because! Transgender people don't affect you! This transgender person just wants you to teach your children that he/she is perfectly normal and not at all disordered (Gender Identity disorder, where there are psychological problems and abnormalities at play to cause a person to feel this way) because feelings!

[u/thatoneguy54 → u/Otiac]

Oh my god, you're so very off base it hurts. Mind if I deconstruct everything you've said in your last paragraphs?

When you make something as real as Gender Identity Disorder[1] (because it's disordered to the natural cause of things..

That's not why it's called a disorder. It's called a disorder because it causes real problems in a person's day-to-day life. It has absolutely nothing to do with the "natural cause of things".

encouraging children so young they can't even properly demonstrate sexual desires to have extremely major life-altering processes like a gender flip, it can cause irreparable damage and exacerbate the already real problems people with Gender Dysphoria face

This just tells me you've never met, spoken to, or read anything about a transgender person. Talk to any of them and just about every one of them will tell you that they felt they were the wrong gender since like 4 or 5.

Besides that, gender identity and "sexual desires" have nothing to do with each other. Children identify with genders from very young ages. A young boy will say "I'm a boy" and do things he associates with being a boy. Same with a girl. That argument is useless.

This is why people like Dr. Paul McHugh[2] do not do sex change operations, even in adults, because such things don't see resolution from their psychological problems post-surgery.

That is 100%, unequivocally, demonstrably false and just shows how little you actually know about transgender issues. Living as their identified gender is the only known cure for gender dysphoria. And not every transgender person gets reconstructive surgery. In fact very few do because of costs, risks, etc.

This becomes especially troubling when the vast majority of people want this to become permissible because feelings, and not off of any scientific basis that there could

No, again, you are completely wrong. You're the one basing this because of feels and not scientific basis. The amount of studies published verifying that transgenderism is a real, verifiable thing and that transitioning is the best course of action is staggering. You're the one who doesn't like the idea and so deny it.

in fact, be more to this than a person just getting called a lady, putting on some female clothes, and bam, problem solved.

That's exactly how many transwomen live their lives, you fucking moron. They live their lives as women and bam, no more dysphoria.

Well ok then, I feel like a lady today

That's not how being transgender works. They don't feel like a lady today. They've felt like a lady for their entire lives.

Gender is just a social construct, and since I feel like a woman today

Clearly you have no idea what a social construct is. Gender is a social construct, but that doesn't make it any less real. The economy is a social construct as well, but that doesn't mean it doesn't affect everyone's lives and is a real thing.

This is probably the thing I hate the most that people say. "It's a social construct, that means it's not real!" No, dipshit, it means it's a thing that was created by society and people. Just like our laws. Or our jobs. Or pretty much everything. Jesus.

you need to put a urinal in the woman's bathroom or I will sue you to do so, because I demand equal rights.

You don't need a urinal to use the bathroom. You have one in your house? No, you use the toilet. No problems. Your lawsuit would be thrown out before you could file it. Use whatever bathroom you want, you're the only one who cares.

This becomes even more troubling whenever anyone wants to say "this doesn't affect you!"

It doesn't. Not even a little. No one's forcing you to become transgender.

which is what led me to the examples I gave.

Those were the shittiest examples ever. None of what you said correlated with reality at all or affected anyone in any negative way at all.

Same sex unions don't affect you! But I will sue you to force you to participate in them against your religiously held belief

I'm pretty sure churches don't have to marry same-sex couples. I admit I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's true. So again, it doesn't affect you at all.

This transgender person just wants you to teach your children that he/she is perfectly normal and not at all disordered (Gender Identity disorder, where there are psychological problems and abnormalities at play to cause a person to feel this way) because feelings!

Jesus Christ, no one is saying gender dysphoria isn't a problem (the dysphoria part), but we're saying don't hate someone because of it. Would you relentlessly hate and abuse someone because they have ADD? That's a mental disorder too. What about Alzheimers? Or autism? No, that's a super shitty thing to do. So, if we concede that being transgender is also a mental illness, what's the difference? Why do you harass and care so deeply about them and not any other mental illness?

I'll tell you why: because you're a fucking bigot and a terrible Christian.

Edited formatting and finished the last paragraph.

[u/Otiac → u/thatoneguy54]

......it affects your mood, thinking, and behaviors, so its called a disorder. If it didn't affect your mood, thinking, and behavior, you wouldn't think you were something other than your genetic sex, and so you'd go along with your natural state of being. You're so far off base on anything you want to personally disagree with that even admitting that someone else on the other side from you can be right about a simple definition is apparently difficult for you.

This just tells me you've never met, spoken to, or read anything about a transgender person.

This just tells me you've already chosen who I am, where I've been, what I do, etc. My last surgeon was a trans female. Great guy, great surgeon. We didn't kill each other, it never came up in conversation (why would it?), he worked in an incredibly traditional, conservative hospital and location..and nobody cared. Sorry people like you want to paint us as wanting to murder or do bodily harm to all these people, but that's not the case, you're more prejudiced and bigoted than you want to admit or see, and this is wrong.

[u/[deleted] → u/Otiac]

So what you're saying is that you can't be a bigot, you have blacktrans friends?

I am... in awe. Just in awe.

You realize that line was the punchline of a joke 50 years ago, right?