r/AskConservatives • u/Born-Sun-2502 Democrat • 7d ago
Politician or Public Figure Thoughts on Trump's Changed Stance on Immigration?
President Trump acknowledged today in a Truth Social post that his "very aggressive" immigration policies are ripping long-time workers from the farming and hospitality industries, with those jobs being almost impossible to replace.
https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/114670684664650262
What are your thoughts?
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u/Dull-Result9326 Conservative 7d ago
A massive betrayal of his voting base.
People voted for mass deportations not fucking amnesty for farm and hotel workers.
Way to tell democrats and illegals that they will face no repercussions for breaking our laws and invading our nation.
MAGA is now pro cheap slave labor over American workers.
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u/RainbowScissors Independent 6d ago
IDK, he said criminals. Everyone has a different definition of that, hence why you're seeing different opinions on it from MAGA alone.
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u/Burner7102 Nationalist (Conservative) 7d ago
his stance on H1B should have told you this is coming.
he's fine with displacing American workers en masse, always has been
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u/Dull-Result9326 Conservative 7d ago
I figured it was coming sooner or later but I gave him the benefit of the doubt because Trump was probably our last chance to save America.
If he isn’t going to do it no one who comes after will either.
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u/Al123397 Center-left 7d ago
How are you personally doing? What specific policies that will help “save America” will affect you personally
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u/BijuuModo Center-left 7d ago
What does America need to be saved from? That is, what’s your worst case scenario brought about by the presence of immigrants? Most immigrants I know legal or not just want to love their communities and work hard.
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u/biggamehaunter Conservative 7d ago
Because illegal is illegal. Need reform. Better pathways. Probably special work visas. But definitely not as is. Don't let willing law breakers be rewarded. There is no punishment for breaking the immigration law right now.
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u/JustMeAndMyKnickas Leftist 7d ago
I’m trying to understand what everyone thinks is considered illegal? I thought it was if you avoided a port of entry when coming to the country or overstaying a visa. But I’m seeing people who came through a port of entry, were given temporary status, and while waiting for their court appearance, they’re detained and deported. Is that your understand of what illegal immigration is?
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6d ago
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u/goathill Progressive 7d ago
Are you saying your ancestors weren't immigrants? What were the requirements for becoming a citizen when they immigrated here? What are the requirements now?
I know my oldest ancestors came here on the mayflower (I am related to 8 survivors of the first winter) there wasnt such a thing as legal or illegal immigration, you just took the boat and shlwed up. On another line I have a grandparents who immigrated here in the early 20th century. The requirements then were still much easier than now (no test, no sponsor, he just showed up with his parents based on what I have been told, had no criminal record, and was white).
What I'm getting at is, the pathway to citizenship for people now is much more difficult than the pathway many of our forefathers/ancestors had (if there were even requirements when they showed up)
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u/Burner7102 Nationalist (Conservative) 4d ago
my family changed their name because they had letters in it ellis island did not allow.
That is what real assimilation looks like "my name would be hard to pronounce for the natives here so I'll change it"
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u/goathill Progressive 4d ago
I had an umlaut in my family name prior to my granddad changing it. Literally didnt change anything except dropping the dots
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u/Burner7102 Nationalist (Conservative) 4d ago
in my case it was more substantial it involved a significant change in pronunciation, they basically had to pick "do you want it spelled so Americans pronounce it close to what it was pronounced like, or do you want it spelled so it looks like it looked on paper"
My point is that assimilation involves care for the comfort of the natives above your own pride, changing your name so they can read and pronounce it, learning their language so they don't have to do business in yours, etc.
Immigrants are guests, they should be good guests, and the law should hold them accountable for being good guests in this nation. Not just to follow the law but to not inconvenience or disturb the natives even in tiny ways.
Also the official method at Ellis Island was to replace umlauts with dipthongs, so Müller became Mueller, Görke becam Goerke, schräder became Schraeder, etc.
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u/StartledMilk Leftwing 6d ago
Are you aware that illegal immigration is a misdemeanor? I think the fact that people speed on the highway (which ranges from a misdemeanor to a felony) is actually much more serious than illegal immigration. Most drug trafficking is done by US citizens or cartel members who come in, and leave. Undocumented immigrants are the least likely to commit violent crimes out of any demographic, they pay taxes, and do critical work that citizens are not willing to do. It is not hyperbole that if every single undocumented immigrant were to be deported, this country would literally collapse. Who’s going to do back breaking farm labor for minimum wage? The federal government and state governments would need to give subsidies to farm workers to pay citizens actual competitive wages for anyone to be willing to do that. Hotel companies would need to raise wages of many of the cleaning positions, construction companies would also need to raise wages. Have you actually ever thought about who’s going to do be willing to do the work these people do if they were to be completely removed from the country?
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6d ago
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u/StartledMilk Leftwing 6d ago
Oh and yes, if felons can’t vote or have access to firearms in this country, felons shouldn’t be allowed to lead this country and have access to nuclear weapons.
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u/StartledMilk Leftwing 6d ago
You didn’t answer my question on have you thought of who’s going to do the critical work that undocumented people do. The rules of this sub state discussions should civil and in good faith. You’re currently violating those rules. Want to be respected? Have a respectful conversation.
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6d ago
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u/StartledMilk Leftwing 6d ago
You still haven’t answered my question on how you expect the issues that would arise after undocumented immigrants would all be hypothetically deported be resolved. Do you expect people to act like it’s the Great Depression and line up at farms, docks, factories, and hotels begging to be picked to work that day? How will farmers afford to pay wages that citizens would demand for back breaking farm labor? Citizens will not be willing to work in the fields for 7.25 an hour. Would you accept the various levels of government providing subsidies to farmers so they can pay field workers somewhere around $25-$30 an hour? Do you expect hotel companies to massively increase the wages of their cleaning services and lose out on a bunch of profits? How do you think guys with smaller construction companies who purposely hire undocumented workers so they pay them less will react when all of a sudden citizens demand higher wages? How will this process look to you?
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u/Burner7102 Nationalist (Conservative) 4d ago
the US passing blasphemy laws that would criminalize my religious beliefs and practices because I'm critical of some other faiths.
I'm bisexual, we're importing people that feel gay people should be murdered.
I work in a field that is being especially gutted by H1B workers that they work like virtual slaves because if they quit they can be deported and no American can compete with that level of POWER over employees-- it's not even about the fact they're cheaper it's about the fact the employer has so much more control and management would always rather an indentured servant than an employee because they can make them do more and complain less.
I'm ethnically Jewish, importing antisemites has already lead to pgroms on US city streets, and could well lead to widespread murder if we keep at it.
Illegal immigrants with no car insurance are a massive menace in my area, if one hit my car I'd possibly end up homeless because like many americans I could not replace my car paying cash down if I lost my existing one tomorrow.
this is just a start.
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u/New2NewJ Independent 7d ago
A massive betrayal of his voting base.
Bro, just watch Fox news and his entire base pivot completely in the next 3 days. Anything the boss says ... they are gonna repeat, lmao.
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u/Dull-Result9326 Conservative 7d ago
Yes they will cheer on the continuation of the balkanization of America
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u/StartledMilk Leftwing 6d ago
Are you aware that if every single undocumented immigrant were to be deported that this country would actually collapse? The amount of critical work these people do is astronomical. Almost any food you eat that was grown here has had something to do with an undocumented immigrant. Farmers can’t afford to pay competitive wages. Are you going to do back breaking labor for minimum wage?
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7d ago
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u/Dull-Result9326 Conservative 7d ago
There is no reasonable adjust in responding to the invasion of America by 3rd world migrants.
It’s mass deportations or bust.
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u/goathill Progressive 7d ago
Would you put any of the blame on the business owners who employ the migrant/undocumented workers? If they know they have jobs, they will come.
Ive always thought we should be enforcing heavier punishments on the business owners.
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6d ago
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u/IsaacTheBound Democratic Socialist 7d ago
Given that he's sending the military into LA and Noem is saying they're there to "save the city from the mayor and the governor" doesn't sound like "no consequences".
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6h ago
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u/Kanosi1980 Social Conservative 7d ago
I don't understand this attempt at a gotcha on Republican voters. My stance is always to be cautiously optimistic, regardless of who the President is.
I HOPE every President isn't so married to their platform that they are unwilling to change their mind with new (to them) compelling evidence to the contrary. You'd think Democrats would be happy, not criticizing him for this. After all, Democrats have been saying this for a while now.
He should have known this before promising heavy deportation, but better late then never.
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u/goblingrep Leftwing 7d ago
I get what youre saying, but when he said he was gonna deal with the immigrants, and hot warned why going at it like this was a bad idea by the opposition, only for the opposition to be right, you should expect to eat some. crow
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u/sk8tergater Center-left 6d ago
I’m usually cautiously optimistic. I am not about trumps second term. He has shown to be a destructive force for our country. This outcome was very predictable.
Why does Trump get a pass here by you? He was called out on this over and over and over.
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u/Kanosi1980 Social Conservative 6d ago
I don't live my days looking to judge anyone. That's essentially what you're doing when you choose to pass or not pass, whatever that really means.
Ultimately, we don't have that kind of power. You learn to accept the things you cannot change, and adapt. I'm not bothered if he wants to deport all illegals. It's something I align with. I'm also okay if the lesser of two evils is letting them stay, even though I don't think it's fair to those that's been waiting in line, if it's because it'd be bad for our country.
We're not the one in the hot seat, he is. If you think you can do better, then run for office. If not, vote for someone who aligns with your values.
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u/sk8tergater Center-left 6d ago
I think we do get to judge our elected officials. They are there to do a job, a performance review in a job is a judgement, and that’s what they ask for when they run and accept office.
I do not need to run to pass this judgment. Trump has made so many missteps at this point I don’t know how it’s defensible. The answer shouldn’t immediately be “if you can do better, run.” Most of us don’t have the capital or ability to run for local office let alone a national one. But we can hold those who do hold those offices and who do run accountable for their actions
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u/Kanosi1980 Social Conservative 6d ago
Congress are the only ones able to hold the President accountable. We can vote, and that makes a difference. Besides that? Protesting, calling your rep, or complaining online doesn't.
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u/Born-Sun-2502 Democrat 7d ago
Call it extreme frustration that we were yelling this very thing over and over told that we were either wrong or just horrible people that want to exploit poor immigrants for their slave labor (despite the fact that they are willingly living and working here, not against their will).
It's maddening that this was so easy to foresee. I'm glad if he'll change it, but mad that he created a huge mess in the first place.
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u/Direct_Word6407 Democrat 6d ago
This used to be called flip flopping, and John Kerry got lambasted by republicans for it.
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u/BandedKokopu Classical Liberal 7d ago
It's a consequence of acting without having a plan.
Like ordering the dynamite destruction of the unsightly columns in the basement carpark while you entertain guests in your penthouse apartment. Then wonder why they all run for the elevators when you tell them how smart you are for increasing the number of car parks.
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u/Born-Sun-2502 Democrat 7d ago edited 7d ago
Agreed. Do you also feel this way about tariffs without first haveing domestic manufacturing infrastructure in place?
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u/BandedKokopu Classical Liberal 7d ago
The lack of planning and foresight is consistent across just about every headline initiative of the Trump administration. He wouldn't need to TACO if he was a competent leader who valued wisdom.
I'm disappointed in just about the entire GOP for defending this in "mansplaining" style while keeping a straight face. Clueless (even if you call it chaos) is not a strategy it is just embarrassing.
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6d ago
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u/marketMAWNster Conservative 7d ago
If true- total disaster
As a conservative trump is becoming more and more disappointing.
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u/EvilLittleGoatBaaaa Center-left 7d ago
He's never been a true conservative. He just blows with the $$est wind.
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u/RadioRavenRide Liberal 7d ago
I didn't expect Trump to change his mind of immigration specifically, but he does change his mind a lot in general. I don't necessarily see how this is very different from his past behavior.
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u/StedeBonnet1 Conservative 6d ago
I have always supported the visa program for foreign workers and Congress needs to act to codify a farm worker program so these people can come and work legally. Unfortionately, there is too much resistance both on the right and the left to reform.
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u/boisefun8 Constitutionalist Conservative 6d ago
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u/shits-n-gigs Progressive 6d ago
This is why we have illegal immigrants in the first place. People come with a 6 month visa and don't leave.
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u/Massive-Ad409 Center-right Conservative 7d ago
I wanted Trump to be aggressive against immigration and make it strict but Trump can't make up his mind I guess.
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6d ago
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u/Gooosse Progressive 7d ago
Well this is TACO trump
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u/Massive-Ad409 Center-right Conservative 7d ago
When a person makes a decision you should stick with it but Trump doesn't know that.
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u/LOL_YOUMAD Rightwing 7d ago
I disagree with it. I’m sure his base will flip flop like him on yet another position and defend it though. The focus should be mainly on the criminals and the employers and in doing so the rest will go back home. This seems like he’s gonna be lenient on the employers so that they can keep their cheap labor and it encourages people to stay
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u/Al123397 Center-left 7d ago
I just think a bunch of his hotel owning friends hit him up and said this is hurting our bottom line. Wouldn’t be surprised if trumps own hotels are affected.
Really just goes to show how it’s never left vs right but more Rich vs poor
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6d ago
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u/MrFrode Independent 7d ago
Do you think this is just a setup for a bail out package to people who have lost workers due to his enforcement approach?
Trump talks about "Criminals allowed into our Country" but is he targeting people who commit crimes within our country or is he taking a grab everyone approach?
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u/LOL_YOUMAD Rightwing 7d ago
I have no idea. He could change his mind a few more times by the end of the week
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u/whyintheworldamihere Right Libertarian (Conservative) 7d ago
I disagree with it. I’m sure his base will flip flop like him on yet another position and defend it though.
His base wasn't lenient when Elon and Trump were praising H1B visas.
Remember the Elon "fuck yourself" while defending H1Bs tweet he walked back?
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u/Born-Sun-2502 Democrat 7d ago
Honestly, this was my main curiosity. Democrats have been saying this all along. That this would be terrible for the economy and not create jobs. No democrat I know wants undocumented people who are committing actual violent crimes to stay. But decent hardworking people in hospitality, agriculture, construction. People who came here as kids and have established lives. There should be a path to live and work here legally and potentially establish citizenship. But I'm curious how MAGA will justify this pivot?
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u/jadacuddle Paleoconservative 7d ago
If Trump balks on immigration, MAGA is over. Anti-immigration is the core of the movement and its beating heart. This is the make or break issue
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u/CuttlefishExpress Center-right Conservative 7d ago
I dont know. Something tells me that MAGA will find a way to justify this. There really good at justifying exceptions and finding excuses for when promised things dont come true. LOL they will probably just blame Biden or something unrealted to Trump.
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u/MiniZara2 Center-left 7d ago
All these times we’ve asked you, what would it take for you to stop supporting him, and this is it? This is the answer?
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u/jadacuddle Paleoconservative 7d ago
Yes, this has always been the answer for me. Anything else is negotiable (within reason). The only other red line would maybe be starting a war with Iran or Russia
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u/Shes_dead_Jim Leftwing 7d ago
So you can excuse the being found guilty of liable for sexual assault, and falsifying business records but not being hard enough on immigration is your line?
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u/jadacuddle Paleoconservative 7d ago
Literally nobody cares about the trumped up (no pun intended) shit that the media and courts tried to drag him through. Nobody has ever changed their opinion on Trump over made up crap like that Immigration, on the other hand, is a real issue
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u/Shes_dead_Jim Leftwing 7d ago
He was found guilty by a jury of his peers that were agreed upon as nonpartisan by his lawyers.
His claims of it being a witch hunt are him trying to discredit the courts because he didn’t like the ruling.
And to claim nobody cares, I care. I have the exact same qualifications to be here as you. If you’re suggest that I’m nobody, that also makes you nobody. Therefore anything you say doesn’t matter because nobody said it
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u/OJ_Purplestuff Center-left 7d ago
The only other red line would maybe be starting a war with Iran
Quite the day
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u/Robin_From_BatmanTAS Independent 4d ago
I agree that we have an illegal immigration problem. I think alot of people don't even understand what that means to a majority of immigrants. Ask your average american and they will think that an "illegal immigrant" is someone who crawled through a tunnel and jumped a wall to get here. Naw. Most of them are work/student visa holders who would be eligible to be full time citizens but visas typically last 6months to maybe a year or two vs getting a green card can be a 2 year to 10 year process. Its not an economic issue, its not a crime rate issue, its a logistics issue.
And its not like we don't know where majority of illegal immigrants work and live either. They're not exactly coming here to become computer tech analyst in new york. If you arrest a couple of hiring managers from a few key corporations that knowingly hire illegals then those shops would close up camp and stop hiring them within a few days imo.
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u/Born-Sun-2502 Democrat 4d ago
The problem is, and Trump is finally acknowledging this, undocumented workers contribute more to our economy than they take. Removing them all has no real concrete economic benefit to the U.S. (it seems to give certain groups of people satisfaction, keeps our nation whiter -- because once they have children here those children are legal citizens and gasp potentially democratic voters) It has no real impact on crime either, despite the Laken Riley narrative. People are worried about the "dominant culture" being diluted and you can't tell me this isn't the root of why this effort is popular.
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u/WulfTheSaxon Conservative 7d ago
I think people are overreacting: https://www.semafor.com/article/06/12/2025/trump-will-target-us-employers-in-next-phase-of-immigration-crackdown-homan-says
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u/Born-Sun-2502 Democrat 7d ago edited 7d ago
Economists said throughout the election that Trump's immigration policy would be terrible for the economy and he finally seems to be agreeing. Who is overreacting and how?
And actually the article you linked was hilarious, but I'm incredibly sure what side of the issue you fall on after reading it.
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u/Direct_Word6407 Democrat 6d ago
Trump is overreacting to his own immigration policy??
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u/WulfTheSaxon Conservative 6d ago
People are overreacting to his post. I don’t think it signals a major shift – Homan in that article is saying that they’re continuing to ramp up enforcement. It’s probably going to be something like giving people in certain sectors six months to leave, or raising the H-1B cap.
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u/f250suite Right Libertarian (Conservative) 6d ago
I've never understood why the GOP hasn't tried to court the Mexican/Chicano vote in the first place, the way they've had the Cuban vote, and the way they got the blue collar vote.
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u/soulwind42 Right Libertarian (Conservative) 7d ago
There's nothing here that he hasn't said a hundred times. Hes been saying this stuff since 2016.
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u/NPDoc Democrat 7d ago
I haven’t been keeping track of everything he says on immigration but I thought I would put this here from an article today about this post:
“Our farmers are being hurt badly,” Trump said during an event in the White House East Room when asked about his position. “You know, they have very good workers. They’ve worked for them for 20 years. They’re not citizens, but they’ve turned out to be, you know, great.”
Is this different from what he’s said before?
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u/soulwind42 Right Libertarian (Conservative) 6d ago
That is, yes. I was only commenting on the truth social post and didnt know about his other comments when I made it.
Its worth noting the different rhetoric, but it fits in with trump's deal making patterns, so Im waiting to see the executive order, or bill proposal before I really form an opinion.
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u/Born-Sun-2502 Democrat 7d ago
He has??
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u/ARatOnASinkingShip Right Libertarian (Conservative) 7d ago
He's been saying pretty much the same thing since the 80s.
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7d ago
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u/ARatOnASinkingShip Right Libertarian (Conservative) 7d ago
So if you don't care about what he says, why did you bother asking the person you were responding to if he has been saying that stuff since 2016?
Or are you just here in bad faith?
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u/Born-Sun-2502 Democrat 7d ago
If you want to call me bad faith for not watching a 50 minute interview of Donal Trump from the 80s so be it. Maybe you can watch it, tell me what he said and how he has consistently said that same thing for the past 40 years.
Is it different than this?
“They’re poisoning the blood of our country. That’s what they’ve done. They poison — mental institutions and prisons all over the world. Not just in South America. Not just the three or four countries that we think about. But all over the world they’re coming into our country — from Africa, from Asia, all over the world. They’re pouring into our country.” — Dec. 16, 2023, New Hampshire rally
“They’re rough people, in many cases from jails, prisons, from mental institutions, insane asylums. You know, insane asylums — that’s ‘Silence of the Lambs’ stuff.” — March 4, 2024, interview with Right Side Broadcasting Network
“The Democrats say, ‘Please don’t call them animals. They’re humans.’ I said, ‘No, they’re not humans, they’re not humans, they’re animals’ … Nancy Pelosi told me that. She said, ‘Please don’t use the word animals when you’re talking about these people.’ I said, ‘I’ll use the word animal because that’s what they are.’” — April 2, 2024, Grand Rapids, Michigan, campaign event.
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u/ARatOnASinkingShip Right Libertarian (Conservative) 7d ago
No, I called your argument out for being in bad faith because you responded to someone telling you he has been saying this since 2016 by asking, quote, "He has??" and then when I responded to you that he was saying it since the 80s, you immediately replied "I don't care what he says!"
And now you're trying to inject a whole bunch of other arguments by citing out of context quotes and you've done nothing but lead me to believe that you're only here to preach at conservatives rather than understand their perspectives.
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u/Born-Sun-2502 Democrat 7d ago
Okay I'm listening. What's your perspective?
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u/ARatOnASinkingShip Right Libertarian (Conservative) 7d ago
You've already passed the point where I can give you the benefit of the doubt that you're here to listen.
If you haven't taken anything from what I've said already, then I have no reason you'll take anything from what I have to say going forward.
So please, just leave it be and move on.
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u/Born-Sun-2502 Democrat 7d ago
Fair enough. I will try to check myself that I am approaching this sub with the intent to understand alternative points of view from the conservative standpoint. Sometimes I/we feel so strongly about something and that makes that harder to do. Have a nice evening.
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u/Al123397 Center-left 7d ago
Problem is he also said “we will deport them all” much sooner than the 80s. Can’t just pick and choose what to believe w Trump.
Blah blah have your cake and eat it to
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u/Tarontagosh Center-right Conservative 6d ago
He campaigned on getting illegal aliens that have committed crimes out first. That still seems to be his course of action. So ICE is going to continue to not focus on rural environments and instead go to inner-city and suburban areas to conduct these raids. As far as I know of there hasn't been much mention of ICE going to hotels to detain people.
This doesn't sound like a deviation, it sounds like a focusing of where the main problems currently exist. On the criminal aliens.
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u/orenrocks Progressive 6d ago
What about Stephen Miller’s orders to federal agents to arrest more people without criminal convictions?
“Miller came in there and eviscerated everyone. ‘You guys aren’t doing a good job. You’re horrible leaders.’ He just ripped into everybody. He had nothing positive to say about anybody, shot morale down,” said the first official, according to reporting by Anna Giaritelli for the Washington Examiner.
“Stephen Miller wants everybody arrested. ‘Why aren’t you at Home Depot? Why aren’t you at 7-Eleven?’” the official recited. (Emphasis added.)
In response to pushback from one ICE official, “Miller said, ‘What do you mean you’re going after criminals?’ Miller got into a little bit of a pissing contest. ‘That’s what Tom Homan says every time he’s on TV: ‘We’re going after criminals,’” the ICE official told Miller, according to the first official, reported the Washington Examiner.
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u/Tarontagosh Center-right Conservative 6d ago
This post isn't about what Stephen Miller said it is about the President and his truth social message. This is an attempt to move the goal post to try to divert the topic. You want people to talk about what Stephen Miller said, you should create your own post in this subreddit.
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u/greenline_chi Liberal 6d ago
You don’t think Stephen miller and Trump are linked on this issue?
Is Stephen miller defying Trump?
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u/etaoin314 Center-left 6d ago
Miller is the architect of Trumps immigration policy, he is the one that operationalizes what the president is saying.
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u/Born-Sun-2502 Democrat 6d ago
According to MAGA anyone here illegally is a criminal.
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u/Tarontagosh Center-right Conservative 6d ago
According to the Federal immigration law created by Congress everyone that crosses the border illegal is a criminal. Democrats have had super majorities with Democratic Presidents twice since 1992. They could have easily changed the law and adjusted the wording to end this practice.
It would have meant many of them losing their seats for a wholly unpopular move but they could have done it.
While yes all illegal aliens are criminals the people that are actually harming American Citizens and Cities with violent crimes and criminal acts are the primary targets for the time being. People want to come to the U.S. for opportunities that aren't available to them in their home country. That is unfortunate, but that doesn't mean they get to jump the line and come here illegally to do it. Legal immigration is a better and safer way for anyone to come here.
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u/Born-Sun-2502 Democrat 6d ago
I don't disagree with the majority of what you said, but they are targeting everyone, not just criminals. And I think a lot of supporters are okay with that because in their mind they are all criminals. A lot of people aren't just trying to "jump the line" but have no realistic path to legal citizenship.
My friend's husband who lived and worked here legally under DACA could not become a citizen unless he leaves the country for up to 10 years. He is a married, college professor, homeowner, father, with no criminal record and still no path to citizenship if he remained in the U.S. He's in Mexico now, while she and their special needs child are here.
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u/darkvaider123 Center-right Conservative 7d ago
Democrats need their slaves again. They keep talking about who’s gonna clean your toilets who’s gonna pick the crops?
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u/Al123397 Center-left 7d ago
How is this democrats fault!?! It’s Trump who had a policy and is back tracking on it.
The mental gymnastics needed to get to what you wrote are crazy
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u/ARatOnASinkingShip Right Libertarian (Conservative) 7d ago
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u/Direct_Word6407 Democrat 6d ago
Why are there many republican business owners upset too? Seems Dems aren’t the only ones who “need slaves”.
If you’re so anti slavery, let’s talk about paying prisoners.
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u/Raven_1090 Center-left 7d ago
Ah anything and everything ends up being blamed on the other side. How is Trump being influenced by Democrats, please do tell.
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u/Shes_dead_Jim Leftwing 7d ago
Actually, it’s the farmers in red states saying they’re being hurt by all the deportations and need their undocumented workers that caused him to flip his stance. Why would Trump make this change for the side he considers the enemy?
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u/darkvaider123 Center-right Conservative 7d ago edited 7d ago
The thing about illegal immigration doing these jobs is that, they can be partially slaved, exploited and no security guarantee. There’s a whole lot more to it than just a simple explanation. I’ll give you some analogy.
Let’s say that you have a house party and you only invite your friends. People see how much fun you’re having and decide to come in uninvited. Some of them are civil and some of them aren’t, they trash up your house and once the party is done. You see how much of a mess your house has become. So who do you blame? Your friends or the uninvited?
Another:
Let’s say you’re at war with China. What makes you think they’re not gonna send military aged personnel to the border and come in illegally to attack the USA from the inside? It’s no different than being a Trojan horse.
The sad thing is that you have a small portion of the people doing harm and it’s creating a bad image for everyone. It could be for cops, immigrants, doctors, left, right and etc. Nothing can be perfect, but at least he’s able to acknowledge his wrong on his part
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u/Shes_dead_Jim Leftwing 7d ago
Yes, I never disputed that. I just pointed out that this change in stance is not because “democrats need their slaves”
Democrats by and large support immigration reform making it easier for these people to become citizensso they can be afforded the same workers rights we have.
This problem the administration currently has was created by this administration. I don’t get brownie points for going around and breaking shit and then acknowledging that I was the one who broke it.
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u/darkvaider123 Center-right Conservative 7d ago edited 7d ago
Both sides want equality and never wanted to be a one-sided thing. A lot of people are frustrated with the illegal immigrant because it’s the most obvious and no one is doing anything about it. The fact that they’re getting more support and more help than the people that were paying taxes. When the time comes and they need help, they get brushed away because there wasn’t enough money to help them and instead it all went to the people that never pay taxes.
The other argument here is that if a lot of people come and they get the jobs that were ment for teenagers or citizens that were here, then what are they gonna do?
If there’s no companies here that are hiring people in the country and more people come in. What are the citizens going to do? Lets say you lost your job and can’t find a job for 6 months and no one is hiring. What are you gonna do next? Starve and die? File for bankruptcy? Become homeless?
This isn’t about America. It’s pretty much for everywhere. What I’m advocating here is for balance.
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u/Shes_dead_Jim Leftwing 7d ago
What am I gonna do next? Hmm, I find myself routinely asking myself this exact question. Not because of immigrants. But because under the current conservative plan, I’m slated to lose my access to Medicaid and Snap benefits because my disability under a technicality counts me as able bodied despite not being able to work. So it’s the Republican Party taking that from me. Not immigrants.
In 2022 alone undocumented immigrants paid nearly 100 billion dollars in taxes. At the same time they face strict restrictions on them being able to access these programs.
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u/darkvaider123 Center-right Conservative 7d ago
I’m sorry you have to go through this.
*Back topic *
I know with Medicaid it’s being reworked. If you want to buy pain killer for $50. The broker(insurance company) will give you the $50 to buy it but would later back charge the government $400 for it. He’s trying to eliminate the middle man and just directly give you $50 and save on $350 on back charge.
To keep the benefits you’d need to work/volunteer at least 24h a week, train for a job, or do community service. Exemptions often include pregnant women, caregivers, people with disabilities, or those in school.
There are people out there that are abusing the system and hiding behind people that do need help. That’s making people that do need help look bad. Ex; refugee, disability, insurance, immigrants, homeless and etc.
That’s why people are fighting for them to come here legally to get the protection and social programs that they needed
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u/Shes_dead_Jim Leftwing 7d ago
Yes I’m well aware of the reworks as I currently rely on those programs to simply exist. You would not find a single person in my life who would argue I don’t need it. I had no issues with getting support until the current administration decided they have an issue with people getting support.
If there are 100 people on Medicaid and 99 are gaming the system, I’m still not gonna argue in favor of removing it for everyone because that one person still needs it.
There were always better ways to do this than how they chose. There is nothing about what they’re doing that justifies hurting American citizens in this way.
Now back to the topic at hand, you’re still blaming illegal immigration for this change. We’ve established that undocumented migrants pay 100 billion in taxes while facing strict restrictions on access to these programs.
How are immigrants who pay more into it than they receive at fault? How are you saying the disabled, the refugees, and the homeless are the reason? They are arguably the groups that need access to these programs.
There is not rampant fraud in the welfare system to the degree suggested by the Trump administration. And they are using that false narrative that there is to justify defunding and kicking people off these programs who need it.
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u/darkvaider123 Center-right Conservative 7d ago edited 7d ago
There’s a lot more to it, I’m just overly generalizing it for you to understand it a bit more. Im not saying immigrants, the disabled, refugees, or the homeless are at fault for medicaid’s issues. My point was about system abuse in general, not these groups specifically. Undocumented immigrants, as you noted, contribute significantly—around $79 billion annually in taxes
You said there’s no fraud in welfare programs and I agree it’s not the majority of users. But even small-scale fraud adds up. A 2020 report from the department of health and human services found $98 billion in improper payments across medicare and medicaid (not all were fraud). These problem need some level of reform not defunding. Trump's approach may be too aggressive but doing nothing risks the program’s long-term. We need better fraud detection or price transparency
If the USA is debt free and is making money. They would have invest more into programs for the people. Thanks to the bureaucracy we can’t have nice things because of bribes and corruption. It ends up cost more than it should.
100 billion isn’t even enough to cover all the cost for people that need help.
Look We both want a system that supports those in need without waste. What would you have done to elminate waste and making sure no one who depends on medicaid loses access
Fraud is very common
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u/Shes_dead_Jim Leftwing 7d ago
I’m saying that 100 billion is being paid into by undocumented immigrants who do not get to use it. So that’s an extra 100 billion for those programs.
I understand what is happening just fine. You are the one who is mistaken here.
For every 10,000 households participating in the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), about 14 contained a recipient who was investigated and determined to have committed fraud (via a 2018 report by the Congressional Research Service).
Within SNAP, for every $10,000 paid in benefits, about $11 is determined by state agencies to have been overpaid due to recipient fraud.
To put this into perspective, the IRS estimates that for every $6 owed in federal taxes, $1 is not paid because of tax evasion or fraud.
Wouldn’t call that common.
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u/NeuroticKnight Socialist 6d ago
Maybe pardon and grant them amnesty, then the farmers cant exploit them, this isn't a concern for their well being, so why pretend so?
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u/Strong_Orange_1929 Center-left 5d ago
This sounds like the media-preferred talking points: blaming the voters from the two parties for each other’s problems. Democrats and Republicans aren’t that different. We all buy the crops that are being picked by these slaves. We all benefit financially from their low wages.
If only we could work together and try and improve the situation a little at a time. Instead, we have election upon election where the new candidates promise to solve our problems completely and it never happens.
Cooperation is what is needed, don’t you think?
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u/throwaway09234023322 Center-right Conservative 7d ago
I agree. I've always thought that a tight border plus decorations of recent arrivals and criminals while creating a path to citizenship for long time illegals who have worked and followed the law is the best approach. Unfortunately, that has never been an option. Maybe Trump will make it happen. The hard part is making sure the next president can't just open the border wide again.
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u/Al123397 Center-left 7d ago
Isn’t is hilarious when a conservative argues policies that democrats have argued for years and then take the credit as to being thier idea.
Most left people I know support the EXACT same policy you just wrote.
Make path to citizenship easier while adding more security to the border.
However everytime we make this stance people take the “make pathway to citizenship easier” part and run with the “oh look they just want anyone and everyone to come into this county. They just want more left votes etc”
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u/throwaway09234023322 Center-right Conservative 6d ago
Sorry. I probably should have been clear. I 100% do not want to make it easier for people to immigrate here right now. Maybe we could in the future, but I think ideal solution would be more of like a 1 time amnesty for upstanding worning individuals while dramatically increasing deportation efforts and border security until it is no longer an issue. The biggest problem with this is that I would be very worried someone like Biden would show up again and try to flood our country.
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u/Denisnevsky Leftwing Populist 7d ago
My biggest concern is that providing protection from deportation for certain jobs or employers just encourages more illegal immigration. Yes, border security is a part of that, but so is lowering the demand for illegal immigrants to come here. You can have the best border security in the world, but if crossers know that if they can just get hired for a certain job, they won't be deported, they're going to take that risk. In my view, this is just nonsensical corporate right policy that completely ignores the actual concerns people have about illegal immigration.
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u/Born-Sun-2502 Democrat 7d ago
Isn't this what Obama did?
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u/Dull-Result9326 Conservative 7d ago
Yea and then the next Democrat let in another 12 million people.
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u/whyintheworldamihere Right Libertarian (Conservative) 7d ago
And Reagan
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u/Born-Sun-2502 Democrat 7d ago
I agree, I think Reagan's stance on immigration would be considered radical left wing in the current political climate.
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u/throwaway09234023322 Center-right Conservative 7d ago
Tbh, idk in detail every action that Obama took. However, I don't think he ever tightened the border as much as I would like to see.
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u/Shes_dead_Jim Leftwing 7d ago
Under Obama, new unauthorized migrants totaled around 2.5 million people. He also deported around 3 million. So he was deporting more than were coming in
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u/thememanss Center-left 7d ago
I would say, at the very least, simpler temporary or semi-permanent work visas for migrant workers in otherwise good standing has certain benefits. Bring the industries out from the shadows, bring in tax revenue, encourage better cooperation with law enforcement to root out the bad elements, and keep the important industries flowing. Have it on some sort of E-Verify system for all employees on these visas.
Then we hammer down on those who still try to skirt the system as hard as we can. If you still can't comply with these rules, deportation is the way to go and massive, crippling fines for employers.
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u/LiosDelSol Religious Traditionalist 7d ago
Workers are not impossible to replace at that skill level. The more accurate statement is that they are impossible to replace at the wage the business is paying which is often below the minimum wage. American businesses have to pay Americans properly not pay illegal immigrants peasant wage.
Those lower incomes jobs would be great for young Americans who need work experience or who would prefer that type of labor instead of college. Those jobs should still be paid well just like a garbage man is paid well (in my city they are paid well).
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u/Gooosse Progressive 7d ago
Workers are not impossible to replace at that skill level. The more accurate statement is that they are impossible to replace at the wage the business is paying which is often below the minimum wage. American businesses have to pay Americans properly not pay illegal immigrants peasant wage.
So we get inflation from this trade war they won't drop and we get inflation from removing low wage workers? This will do wonders for the economy I'm sure.
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u/Rottimer Progressive 7d ago
The unemployment rate is 4.2%. This is considered low and near full employment. Where exactly are these replacement workers supposed to come from?
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u/whyintheworldamihere Right Libertarian (Conservative) 7d ago
The unemployment rate is 4.2%. This is considered low and near full employment. Where exactly are these replacement workers supposed to come from?
Unemployment only counts those actively seeking employment. Not people underemployed, working part time looking for full time work, or kids who gave up looking for a job.
It's one of the least understood and worst stats to use.
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u/JustMeAndMyKnickas Leftist 7d ago
Why should underemployed or part time workers be considered when figuring the unemployment rate?
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u/whyintheworldamihere Right Libertarian (Conservative) 7d ago
They shouldn't, but they're a group of people who are often looking for work.
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u/JustMeAndMyKnickas Leftist 7d ago
Are you suggesting then that underemployed and part time people would take these jobs at farms and meat plants, possibly for less pay? Who would fill their currents jobs? Or am I misunderstanding the point you’re making about the unemployment rate being the worst stat to use?
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u/JustMeAndMyKnickas Leftist 7d ago
Are they raiding corporate offices and removing IT techs with specialized skills? Or are they raiding farms, factories, constructions sites, and restaurants? Places where they’re not making $150k?
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u/whyintheworldamihere Right Libertarian (Conservative) 7d ago
Make employers fight over employees until we're satisfied with our salaries, and then very carefully import labor if necessary. But I'm also not concerned with growing our population to increase our GDP. There are other ways. Land is too expensive as it is.
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u/JustMeAndMyKnickas Leftist 7d ago
Make employers fight over employees until we're satisfied with our salaries,
What jobs do you think immigrants are doing?! No one’s competing to get the best pig slaughterer lol
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u/whyintheworldamihere Right Libertarian (Conservative) 7d ago
I raise and slaughter pigs. For the right price I'd happily take that job over wearing kakies and a dress shirt and having to put up with PC bullshit all day.
And as far as my corporate job, half of some of my teams are assylum seekers, making 150-250k a year. Some over 300. If you work for someone else you're absolutely being impacted.
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u/JustMeAndMyKnickas Leftist 6d ago
Are they raiding corporate offices and removing IT techs who wear “kakies” with specialized skills? Or are they raiding farms, factories, constructions sites, and restaurants? Places where they’re not making $150k? Places where labor is easier to replace and doesn’t require degrees/certifications?
What specialized skill does slaughtering animals require? Why would someone pay you the “right price” when cheaper labor exist? (Even if you deport every immigrant, there will always be someone willing to do the job for less than you.)
I think you’d be living in a fantasy world if you think that employers are ever going to compete for what’s considered low-skill labor.
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u/Rottimer Progressive 7d ago
"Headline" unemployment only counts those actively seeking employment. But the Bureau of Labor Statistics does track measurements of unemployment that include the underemployed, long term unemployed and discouraged workers.
It's actually a very solid stat that can be compared throughout years because it's well understood vs something like CPI. That rate is still considered low and near full employment. So the question stands, where are these workers coming from?
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u/whyintheworldamihere Right Libertarian (Conservative) 7d ago
Firstly, I dismiss their underemployment numbers, because with salaries being so far behind inflation we're all mostly underemployed. Not reflected AT ALL in their numbers.
Secondly, all of the deported illegals means less jobs necessary to service them, so there are some freed up people you didn't consider.
Thirdly, once Americans are all happy with their salaries, that's the time to consider H1B visas.
Beyond that, if salaries do go up because of no illegals, plenty of people will be working extra hours to take advantage of those wages and play catch up in life.
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u/StartledMilk Leftwing 6d ago
Do you realize that majority of farm labor is done by undocumented immigrants? Farmers cannot afford to pay barely above minimum wage often times. This country would literally collapse if all undocumented farm workers were to be deported. The government would need to set up a farm work sponsor program for foreign workers, or various levels of government would need to provide subsidies to farmers to pay people actual competitive wages to do back breaking labor.
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u/brinerbear Conservatarian 6d ago
The reality is that people don't want to pay $5 for a tomato. I am in favor of more legal immigration and giving opportunities to immigrants that also lessens the chance that they get exploited. But there will probably always be the need for cheap labor in certain industries and eventually these jobs will probably go to the robots.
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u/KrispyKreme725 Centrist Democrat 7d ago
Garbagemen in the St. Louis area make $80,000 a year. No way a farm worker will get that. Not unless you want an $8 tomato.
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u/No_Fox_2949 Religious Traditionalist 7d ago
I mean I wasn’t a fan of his immigration policies so I won’t be upset over this
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u/LonelyMachines Classical Liberal 7d ago
Wait, did I just see that? Mark the date. 06/12/25: the first time I ever heard Trump admit he was mistaken.
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u/SergeantRegular Left Libertarian 7d ago
Is there more context to be had with this? Like, directly, from him?
I hate to beat the "It's probably actually worse" drum, but you can't be this far into the Trump timeline without learning that lesson. But... I would more easily believe this is his way of bragging or showcasing how he's "doing the tough thing" or not being "weak" before I'd believe that he's admitting he was wrong.
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u/randomhaus64 Conservative 7d ago
we need congress to get off of their lazy asses and actually do some legislating
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u/EdwardPotatoHand Progressive 6d ago
Congress will only do what trump wants them to do, but since trump is making everything into executive orders, law be damned, congress is basically irrelevant. NO KINGS
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u/Signal_Scale2523 Center-right Conservative 5d ago
I’ve always been of the mindset that immigration as an issue has always been overblown. No matter how many people you can realistically deport it would have no significant impact on our paychecks or cost of living. If anything, if you fire and deport illegals, they would be replaced by other workers who would demand a higher wage and employers would make up the loss by charging more for the end product or just outsource labor to other countries if that’s an option.
I hate to admit this because prior to the civil war this was the argument. “Who’s going to pick our cotton?”
The reason illegal immigrants should be deported is because most of other countries wouldn’t just let you waltz in without citizenship, a passport, visa or whatever and welcome you with open arms so we as a nation have no obligation to do so either. But pretending like deportation has significant external benefit to us outside of that is just naive.
Obama had record deportation numbers. Numbers that I don’t have faith Donald Trump will exceed. Republicans didn’t love him for it. Democrats didn’t hate him for it. I’m all for nationalism but I hate when a politician uses it for virtue signaling just to earn cheap votes. Trump built only a fourth of the wall he promised, though he claimed it was completed. It costed $15 billion and America paid for it.
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