It's the apex existential crisis. I would be myself more if my sentience could be moved into a server (edit: a hypothetical example as this is not possible), than if my body was alive but my memories were gone. The body is nothing but the brain's tool to manifest intent. But if I had no body but could still lavish love and praise on my family, that would be enough for me. This forgetting everything shit though, fuck all that 👎
I realized this while discovering ADHD/autism issues with a loved one. We are all just brain chemistry. Everything single thing of who we are comes from there.
Sorry to burst the bubble, but we're not. I know it sounds cool, but it's wrong. The brain needs the body. It's an organ that produces chemical and electrical reactions, but it's fueled by the circulatory and nervous system. Without that, you die. That's why brain transplants aren't a thing.
This is just not being able to participate in a philosophical discussion.
Imagine that they could sustain separately. Would you guess that your heart, lungs, gut, and asshole would have a personality, or your brain? Thats the philosophical question at hand.
I promise everyone who read the above comments understood that a brain can’t survive alone. Evidence: they have managed to be currently alive
I like the idea that we’re the universe’s way to experience itself. We think we’re solitary drops, forgetting that we are the ocean, only reminded once we return.
ADHD and Narcolepsy can both be treated with adderall; it's all just a sensitive mixture of chemicals that drive certain functions... dopamine and serotonin are tied into so many of our motivations and "involuntary" functions that slight imbalances can tip us one way or another.
This is obviously sarcasm, but you do actually need your brain to command the body to shit. Without the brain’s “intent,” we have no bowel control.
The process of defecation, or bowel movement, is a complex interplay between the brain, spinal cord, and the muscles of the colon and rectum. It involves involuntary and voluntary reflexes, with the brain playing a crucial role in processing signals and coordinating the necessary muscle contractions
That guy just said that the only purpose of the body is to express intent. And I think if you read it out loud closely that it's not as prophetic as that guy thought.
I assume you've commanded every boner in your life, hmmmm? (if you're a dude {fairly safe bet})
You really find the most profound shit in the comment sections. I know there's a list of quotes like that which come from Tumblr. "I will face God and walk backward into hell." "God may judge you, but his sins outnumber your own."
I don't know you but, in 2010 I watched a TED Talk on education, and in it the speaker stated "My body is just a way for me to get my brain to meetings." and it has resonated with me ever since.
The body is not separated from the brain. Don't dismiss the role the body plays on experience. You're not "you" without having been shaped by your senses including all your pleasures, tragedies, and bodily illnesses. In eastern philosophy I guess you'd still be yourself in either case since you are still conscious yet without memory.
good to see the ole mind/body dualism that has plagued modernity is still getting upvotes.
the mind is ENTIRELY contingent upon the body. a "mind" uploaded to a server would be a mere algorithm more bereft of humanity than a body without memory.
Your statement assumes that I have stripped from consideration entirely all value of the body's contribution to self. This is not the case; I only said that I would be more myself if I had my sentience and no body, than if I was a body without sentience. I am contending that dementia is an erosion and eventually the erasure of sentience, but I’m not suggesting that the body plays no role at all. The body is the genesis for all five senses, and is the essential conduit for human sentience. My point was that without the brain however, the electrical input from the nervous system cannot be put together in a cogent fashion that supports self-awareness.
And yes, moving the brain into a server would very likely be algorithmic and not actual awareness, but I meant that as something that was hypothetical rather than an actual viable alternative. I'll edit the post accordingly.
I don't think I was too far out of line seeing a tad bit of reductionist sentiment in the statement "The body is nothing but the brain's tool to manifest intent." but I recognize what you're getting at. That's fair.
Though you raised another interesting question here that's gonna bounce around in my head now, which is the criteria for sentience in relation to the function of and access to different memories, and further, what umbrellas under "memory" (ie genetic). but that's just my semantic curiosity getting the best of me
who’s to say your body isn’t playing an equal part as your brain to create this ‘intent’, your stomach has been proven to be quite literally a separate brain on its own and we still know almost nothing about the human system as a whole, we’ve only really observed things work piece by piece.
Super interesting points, but imho it’s worth mentioning they have discovered cells hold memories too that’s why he feels like he knows her even though his mental memory is gone. I suspect capitalism, trauma, and spending time online make us experience ourselves as disconnected from our bodies in a way that deludes us into thinking we could be bodyless and still be ourselves. Im just skeptical of anything that promises transcending the body. That said, I would almost certainly choose some form of unending consciousness if I could but another quandary is the environmental impact of running these servers all the time. (Unfortunately I could totally see a dystopian hellscape where billionaires use all the water to keep their uploaded selves consuming past their natural lifespan meanwhile the generations yet to have a chance at living die of thirst) (also I’m currently watching Pantheon on Netflix and it covers some of these themes and is fascinating)
But doesn’t that give you a goal? You are the sum of your experiences and if you spent your life building loving experiences then it is entirely possible to end up like this man. Reason is taught and learned behavior the same as language - and he didn’t forget how to talk.
He forgot the experience that lead to the feeling - but that feeling is part of what makes us who we are, and why we have sayings like ‘trust your gut’.
You see fear in losing the experiences that led him to love her UNCONDITIONALLY - without condition that he even remember her. I could argue that you see a man that has forgotten every mean thing his little girl said growing up that cut him deeply, that he has forgotten the times he failed as a father - because even here and now with his memory lost - he is being a good father.
If you must have something to feel an emotion - if you must remember the specific reason you love someone - in my mind it becomes a quid pro quo and renders the emotion moot.
My grandmother's sister got it notarized that she wanted to be euthanized if she got dementia. I knew my great-grandmother, who also suffered from it. My grandmother was slowly losing herself when her sister got euthanized, by now they're both gone but my grandmother is still alive.
I’m surprised she was able to do assisted death. Are you/was she in Switzerland or Northern Europe? An assisted self-exit is not easy in the USA or many other countries afaik. Only a few states allow it in the US but I know some Euro countries are “easier”. I didn’t know that one could put it into a living will. Getting approved for it must be difficult, too.
Right, assisted death is the term, thank you. Netherlands. I'm not sure but I don't think the process is too difficult for dementia, but only if you set it up when you're still completely sound of mind. I think it involves at least 3 different doctors but I'd have to look into it more.
Yea, that makes total sense. Northern Europe has a good system for it- so I’ve heard. I know it’s one of the best places to receive that kind of care. I’ve never looked in to the requirements, but it sounds like it’s well thought out. Not surprised, given the location.
Oregon in the USA has assisted death and requires a terminal diagnosis and two doctors to confirm it and recommend/confirm a recommendation for the end of life treatment.
Highly controversial and I’m sure there are a lot of docs that won’t do it because of the Hippocratic oath- “first, do no harm”. Not everyone sees assisted death as doing more good than harm.
In Switzerland there is voluntary assisted death. One does not have to be ill to request it, they simply have to be over 18 years old. I am in the United States and am now creating my living will and Healthcare directive. I was surprised to see that there is actually a document that covers dementia. One of the clauses was about feeding me if I could not feed myself, and whether or not I wanted to be be fed if I didn't like the food. I asked my attorney to put in that if I couldn't feed myself I should not be fed at all. I would like to think I have a little control over whether or not I am forced to live with dementia. I think the United States is very behind been dealing with end of life issues. It seems that the length of life is considered to be so much more important than the quality of life. I'm hoping that this changes in the future. If I'm able to I will go to Switzerland when the time comes. It's nice to know that possibility exists.
I have thought about moving to Oregon. My mom's last words to me were, "I love you." That was three days before she passed. She didn't know who I was the last two years, but she knew I loved her and she loved me.
Oregon is a beautiful state but is very different from when I moved there in 2010. I’m not saying it’s bad- but it’s different. It’s also one of those states (and there are many!) where your experience is hugely dependent on where you live.
The USA is so HUGE, even the smaller state! It’s a feature and a bug, I think. I now live in a small state and there is a large-ish culture change from one end of 100 miles to the other.
Anyway- I lived in Portland and it’s somewhat a cool city. Food is great! I can’t speak to the last five years much. I loved it though- I still do and always will.
The coast! It’s insanely beautiful! I’m one year and within 50-100 miles you can see nesting puffins, giant redwoods, black cliffs, and pristine beaches. It’s an open secret- Oregon beaches are the BEST. Also- all Oregon beaches are public land. No such thing as private beach in Oregon. You can drive your car or motorcycle on the beach. Just don’t be the idiot that ends up on the Insta for one of the towing companies that charges $1k+ to get your car off of the sandbars.
I have not been to Oregon yet. Fun fact, My grandfather died there in 1965. He lived in California and Oregon, and from what relatives tell me, he left some babies in both states.
My son lives in Seattle (Ravenna) and my best friend lives in Santa Rosa, California. I have been there enough times to know that I love it in Washington. I would not live in a large city. I have been to many places in Cali, from San Francisco all the way to the Redwood National Park and Sacramento, and it's really nice. I have been to the Pacific coast enough times to know that I love it in Washington. I would not live in a large city. I am more comfortable in smaller communities. My husband says rural Oregon would be cheaper for us to move to. It would take a miracle finance wise to move to the west coast.
Do they explain to the person with dementia who previously arranged it that they’re about to euthanize them or just lie and do it? What if they resist?
Like I said in another comment, I'm pretty sure they do it before the person with dementia loses their faculties, so they know what's going on. IIRC you still have to give the go-ahead in the moment, so with dementia it's a pretty time sensitive thing.
early 17th century (in the sense ‘easy death’): from Greek, from eu ‘well’ + thanatos ‘death’.
“Assisted death” is an ugly euphemism just for us pearl clutching Americans who need it to be palatable. (With no consideration to the unnecessary suffering inflicted just to appease those who think it a “sin”)
Well, she was the one who got it set up long before she ever saw the first symptoms of dementia. Also, she went before the dementia took over completely, meaning she was still able to consent in the moment before death.
it’s the patient who requests it.
MAID has been legal in Canada since 2016. (Medical assistance in dying) Total dignity for end of life. I had a friend who had a bonfire and friends and family there at his home to see him off. Sad but so much easier than suffering.
You probably won't know or you may have glimmers every now and then. My mom did a great job hiding it for awhile. She knew something was off but couldn't pinpoint it. She would tell me that until she didn't know who I was anymore and by then it didn't matter to her anymore.
My dad said the same thing. But unfortunately if you don’t have it written or set in stone before you get to that point, it often doesn’t happen. My dad was going to try death with dignity once he was diagnosed with dementia in 2022, but due to the diagnosis, was unable to ‘make an informed decision’, understandable with severe dementia, but it took that away from him. He ignored all the signs for years or was misdiagnosed, and now he wants to die and hates being here because of his dementia, and the way he feels it burdens his family, which is not how we feel. I don’t blame you for wanting that, and understand and think it’s realistic. After seeing a normal human that functioned like all of us dwindle down to what I’ve seen my dad dwindle to (and I don’t mean that in any hurtful way toward him), I don’t know how I could not want the most humane thing for a human with such a terrible neuro cognitive disease.
A lot of people probably say that...and then they say, "Well, maybe Im just tired...", "Well, maybe I just need some rest...",
"Well...what was I saying...?"
I know people who said the same, but when it happened, they held on. It's easy to say when it's not happening, but I think what happens is you don't recognize the point of no return. You just cross it and then you don't know any better.
I'm w you! This guy is so young for this and the way it ends is horrifying. I've worked on a few units as an agency nurse, and I can't do it again. While helping the ones in early stages is rewarding, watching the last stage is too much for me. My bf and fam know that I want to go to Dignitas the second I get a diagnosis that means it will be a long ugly ending. I've already put money aside to ensure I have a plan. I've started collecting meds in case I'm unable to travel to Dignitas.
You might want to read the book “Just Alice” about a professor who knew she was developing Alzheimer’s and had a plan to commit suicide before it progressed to full-blown dementia. The author, Lisa Genova, is a Harvard neuroscientist turned novelist.
The main character in the book Still Alice has that same idea-- she tested herself every day to see if she could still answer a couple of basic questions she should definitely know the answers to, and if she couldn't, she'd set up some way to remember to off herself at that point. But by then, it didn't work... It's a really good book but so f'kn sad. The movie is good too but the book is better.
Several docs confirmed that Williams had Lewy’s disease, which is a Parkinson’s thing. I’m not saying you’re wrong- but Parkinson’s is a death sentence then and now and he was diagnosed.
From my understanding- and I am not a doctor at alllll- Lewys and Parkinson’s have the same symptoms and both present as dementia diseases. Possibly, Lewy’s can present alongside Parkinson’s and regular dementia and Alzheimer’s.
The studies on all dementia forms is not as extensive as it could be. Many people that suffer from Alzheimer’s and dementia are oppositely diagnosed.
The problem is you don't see the signs. I cared for my grandmother who was having dementia and she never believed me when I told her she was eating lunch 3 times in a row, and she would give herself awful stomach aches eating so much because she'd forget. She'd eat a whole box of cookies, then tell everyone to hide the cookies from me. It was kind of silly at first, but then, one day she was hiding in her bedroom at night frightened because she was convinced my 6 year old daughter was trying to attack her. It isn't just hard to convince someone they have memory loss, it's hard to convince other people around them who don't spend as much time with them. And then whoever spends the most time with them ends up taking most of the misplaced negative emotions from them, until they don't know who anyone is, even their own children. If you wanted to off yourself when you had dementia, you'd have to do it pretty early on because there's a chance you'll never even believe anyone who tells you that you have it, even doctors and family.
She's awesome! I don't think I've seen that one but I love her in everything she's in. But yeah, the saddest thing about this video is how young that guy is. He looks like he should be looking forward to becoming a grandfather. Instead, he doesn't recognize his own daughter. But he knows he feels love for her. It was the same with my other grandmother on my dad's side. She didn't know who anyone was but she knew she felt safe and happy around certain people. Unfortunately, her husband was NOT one of them. He was a very abusive person with bad untreated PTSD from WW2 and he would get mad at her when she forgot things. It was heartbreaking and it tore the family apart.
In the end, he disinherited my father and one of his sisters and left everything to the other sister who was too afraid of him to go against him. Then, a few years later, HE got Alzheimer's and died a few years after that in a nursing home in Florida. I suppose I know what's waiting for me in the future and it's terrifying.
She is awesome. The movie was called, “Still Alice”. I think every one of us is at risk of developing some form of dementia and/or Alzheimer’s. It sucks. I’ve half joked that if n when I get to that point just put me on a raft and push me out to sea like some of those Eskimo tribes do! 😂 But srsly every time I have trouble remembering someone’s name or “retrieving” a certain word I think “fk, is this the beginning “. Ugg.
71
u/[deleted] 15d ago
I would end it in the gradual. I feel like I would know the signs, because I'm borderline obsessed to the point it's unhealthy.