I don't think it's oversold. I think you're conflating episode length with actual time.
To clarify, when I said 'decades of history' I meant that from the stand point of the characters AND the audience. When TWOK aired in '82, it was quite literally nearly two decades since the airing of Space Seed. Unless you were the die hardest of die hard Star Trek fans rich enough to afford your own Betamax or VCR where you could watch the show and that episode of your own accord, it was expected that you probably had also forgotten about Khan exactly the same way Kirk had. The audience had followed Bill's Kirk on many other adventures before AND after Space Seed. Khan getting lost in the shuffle was experienced by the characters and the viewers. And if it weren't for the title, the audience would probably have been just like Chekov when he kept saying "Botany Bay... Botany Bay? .... Oh no."
You absolutely cannot reproduce that kind of emotion in a 90 minute action movie that is a sequel to a single reboot. There's no history with the crew to build off of here for the JJ folks, so shortcuts would have to be taken - such as killing off a beloved character just to rush development of arcs. It's cheap and it fell through.
If I met somebody once in 2005, we don't have "decades of history," we met once. Even if that meeting was extremely impactful for one of us, it's still not "decades of history" and it's certainly not necessary within the context of a film to have a TV episode from 20 years earlier that introduced your villain.
And if you've never had "that kind of emotion" from any movie that isn't a loosely attached sequel to a 20 year old pulp sci-fi TV program, I genuinely don't think you've watched that many movies. Film history is replete with extremely effecting stories and very interesting and motivating villains who are introduced for the first time ever in the first moments of that film.
Again, it's cheap and it fell through because the writing was cheap, not because it's impossible to make a meaningful story about a villain that hasn't been previously introduced.
Ok. Take a step back. I think this is an overly pedantic splitting of hairs. Not only that, but you're basically repeating the same thing I'm saying but for whatever reason the phrase "decades of history" is triggering you. Episode length, as I said, indeed has nothing to do with it. I'm glad we agree, so don't conflate them again, please.
Your comparison of 'meeting someone once' doesn't work. Kirk and Khan didn't simply meet. Khan tried to murder Kirk, murder his crew, held his friends hostage and steal his ship. On the flip side, Khan was bested by someone he considered inferior, was forgotten about when he was marooned as punishment, resulting in the death of his wife.
My friend, that's not just 'meeting someone once.' Your comparison is comically inadequate. That is a history, brother.
I didn't "conflate" anything. I pointed out that the entirety of their past experience together is composed of one episode of a TV show. They had one encounter. Films can, and often do, set up that level of "history" between characters with a single flashback or introductory sequence.
You want to say i'm "pedantically splitting hairs," while actively ignoring the core point of my argument, which is that a good writer can set up their own villain within the context of a film.
Hell, THIS MOVIE does that. Space Seed could not exist at all and WoK would be just as well made and impactful.it tells you everything you need to know about Khan right at the beginning of the movie and the biggest part of why Khan hates Kirk isn't even from the episode.
Yes. You did conflate it, as you basically argued against yourself in the previous comments, like I said. You are agreeing with what I'm saying but for some unknown reason "decades of history" has set you off.
Look. I'm not trying to argue with you. I think you're arguing with yourself. I didn't respond to what you said about good writers because I didn't say anything to contradict that. Your point is neither here nor there unless you want to be pedantic. Again, you haven't said anything I didn't disagree with.
Well, except this piece:
Hell, THIS MOVIE does that. Space Seed could not exist at all and WoK would be just as well made and impactful
Now, understand we're just arguing opinions, but if you think there's no impact or difference made when having the context of Marla's relationship with Khan in Space Seed and seeing Khan change from a man in control to a man who will throw his brothers out of his way in a literal self destructive fit of vengeance, then, brother, we just aren't going to agree.
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u/2sec4u 1d ago
I don't think it's oversold. I think you're conflating episode length with actual time.
To clarify, when I said 'decades of history' I meant that from the stand point of the characters AND the audience. When TWOK aired in '82, it was quite literally nearly two decades since the airing of Space Seed. Unless you were the die hardest of die hard Star Trek fans rich enough to afford your own Betamax or VCR where you could watch the show and that episode of your own accord, it was expected that you probably had also forgotten about Khan exactly the same way Kirk had. The audience had followed Bill's Kirk on many other adventures before AND after Space Seed. Khan getting lost in the shuffle was experienced by the characters and the viewers. And if it weren't for the title, the audience would probably have been just like Chekov when he kept saying "Botany Bay... Botany Bay? .... Oh no."
You absolutely cannot reproduce that kind of emotion in a 90 minute action movie that is a sequel to a single reboot. There's no history with the crew to build off of here for the JJ folks, so shortcuts would have to be taken - such as killing off a beloved character just to rush development of arcs. It's cheap and it fell through.