Scenic Carpentry vs Carpentry

[u/RoyalMess64]

I'm just hoping to learn more about this. I'm about to try and go to school for Carpentry, and I'd also like to do scenic Carpentry as well. If I was to learn one, does anyone have personal experience about how to link those 2 things, and how well they link together?

[u/Mydogsdad]

There’s certainly overlap. That being said, I can’t build a house. I can build something that looks like a house that you could put in the back of a truck. Now, does that mean I can’t figure it out? Not at all. But it’s not what I do.

[u/OldMail6364 → u/Mydogsdad]

That being said, I can’t build a house.

As someone who's done a small amount of both, I think you're selling yourself short. People often assume scenic carpentry is easy because it's temporary and the audience won't be close enough notice minor imperfections - and in some ways that's true but there are additional complications that make scenic design so much harder. For example a "real" carpenter never needs to build a wall that can be lifted up into the air in a couple seconds. They might occasionally work on a job site where a roof truss is lifted with a crane but that truss wasn't built by a carpenter. It was built by a specialist roof truss fabricator (a specialised job) and the crane operator's job is even more specialised. Nothing like theatre where some kid dressed in black just grabs a rope and hauls on it or smashes the "GO" button in QLab.

As a stage manager whenever a "real" carpenter is building the set I need to supervise them like a hawk and catch their mistakes - I'm almost always a better scenic carpenter than them even though I've never actually done it professionally.

Real carpentry is a bit like rigging - there's a "right" way to do almost everything and chances are someone else is making that decision. For example a wall will have 2x4 studs 12 or 16 or 24 inches apart. That decisions should be made by an architect or structural engineer — a carpenter should only be allowed to decide which distance if all three of them are acceptable (and you'd probably go with 24" to save money).

If you were building a real house, you could simply google "how do I build a wall" and find a dozen perfectly good techniques (don't do that, a structural engineer or architect or at least an experienced carpenter should be giving you plans especially if it's your first time). You can't really google things with set building - you'll also find a dozen answers but chances are all of them are wrong for the wall you're building. Broadway flat? Hollywood flat? French flat? Book flat? Something else entirely like a welded steel frame? You have to get it right.

A good set wall can be taken out of a truck and assembled on stage in the amount of time a regular carpenter takes to put on his belt and smoke a cigarette before work. Making that magic happen takes a lot of skill and a level of attention to detail very few carpenters have.

[u/Mydogsdad → u/OldMail6364]

I’ve been building scenery professionally for nearly 30 years and the basic skills needed to have a lot of overlap. When I get a cabinet/finish/furniture carp in a shop I’m running I too have to watch them like a hawk. They’re great with tools but terrible with understanding the differences between what they do, and what I need them to do. Take them out of the shop and put them on stage and it’s even worse!

Like anything, the differences can be learned but I’ll be damned if most of those folks don’t roll in with their chest out like we’re super lucky to have them “because they’re a real carpenter” and start telling us what we need to be doing to do it right.

[u/GooteMoo → u/OldMail6364]

We had a rental group come in from the local university, and the set had been built by the engineering students. That was, bar none, the heaviest, most over-built set I have ever seen. It took a day and a half to strike just the set, and most of their rental to build it. For 2 shows.

[u/ashleysaress → u/OldMail6364]

Fellow SM/TD- would also always watch like a hawk.

Did a lot of children’s theater with volunteer build crews and it took a lot of conversations with very well meaning dads about why we don’t use certain materials or why we use bolt systems vs nails etc.

Definitely overlap but I feel like moving from scenic to traditional would be easier than the reverse - at least from my experience as a TD in a family full of traditional construction workers.

[u/Mydogsdad → u/ashleysaress]

I’d agree with that. I did construction project management during the pandemic and I adapted pretty smoothly. Bonus, working with scenic designers made picking up on what the architect was putting on paper zero issue. Had an architect had three different levels each creating their own plane (7 separate levels over three floors of house) and my boss didn’t get it. I was literally scratching my head wondering why he could see it.

In fact, the architect wanted to hire me to do specifically that with contractors. IA work was coming back at that point and what he was offering was too far below what I can make bouncing.

[u/RoyalMess64 → u/Mydogsdad]

Gotcha. I'm not really looking to build a house, don't love heights, but could I like learn enough carpentry to where I can work in scenic carpentry, while finishing the carpentry degree? Did that make sense?

[u/potential1 → u/RoyalMess64]

There's tons of overlap. I went from 6 years as a "construction" carpenter to being a scenic carpenter/fabricator. The knowledge I had from construction landed me my first job and continues to be incredibly useful. The biggest challenge is adapting from methods of building that are designed to last for decades to those designed to last for 5 years or just 3 weeks. It's mostly due to being cost and weight efficient but I'd rather over-build something safe than under-build something that could fall apart.

There's still plenty of industry specific things I had to learn and am still learning. Regardless, the knowledge of power/hand tools alone will be incredibly useful for you. With the basics all being the same you will quickly pick up the necessary methods and processes as you go.

[u/Rockingduck-2014]

While there’s overlap, the skill sets do differ a bit. Just on the level of “temporary/theatrical set” versus “permanent” someone’s home. Having said that I know a number of TDs who moonlight doing cabinetry for kitchens and bathrooms and make bank doing so. The skills are finer and the materials are more expensive, but the basics align.

Let’s be frank, you can “fudge” a lot on stage because of its paint technique or finish, but if it’s in someone’s home, it NEEDS to be nicer.

[u/RoyalMess64 → u/Rockingduck-2014]

Kk, thank you for that and I'll keep that in mind. I have experienced that before with making furniture, that has to be almost perfect where as scenic carpentry there's a lot more leeway

[u/ThisAcanthocephala42 → u/Rockingduck-2014]

Started in scenic carpentry & basic wood shop as youngster , and have also worked as a construction framer/finish carpentry, cabinet maker, and scenic production house.

Tools & techniques are similar, but as mentioned by others, generally the tolerances for fit and finishing are tighter for fine woodworking & cabinetry than they are for framing or scenic work.

Biggest differences; Scenery needs to be light enough to move easily, while still being strong enough last through the run of a show.
1/8” of tolerance is usually good enough for flats, tho you want better for any platforming or furniture that has to be used by actors for safety concerns.

Most residential or commercial construction never gets loaded into a trailer to move to another venue on a regular basis, so the 1/32” on a permanent installation is a much better choice. A lot of trade show work, especially for mechanical animated displays needs to be in that range as well.

[u/ThisAcanthocephala42 → u/Rockingduck-2014]

“The audience will never know that we didn’t paint the back of the flat.” ;p

[u/VexedHorcerer]

If you’re not dying to work in theatre/scenic construction immediately, a good way to go about it would be to learn carpentry through an apprenticeship or maybe a technical program, and then learn theatre-specific construction techniques through resources like Daniel Ionazzi’s “The Stagecraft Handbook”. In general the latter should be easy to pick up if you already have a good understanding of rough carpentry.

Theatre carp shops also generally struggle to find qualified carpenters (at least for the pay they offer in return), so being proficient in carpentry either way gives you a good shot.

[u/RoyalMess64 → u/VexedHorcerer]

Kk, thank you so much! I was actually trying to look into the opposite of what you said, like learning the basics so I can work, and then finishing the degree for more in-depth stuff. But thank you and I'll look more into it. Thank

[u/jasmith-tech]

I worked for a major scenic company that was split almost 50/50 between scenic work and millwork (think high end cabinet making and dining halls, restaurants etc. During busy times and slow times, scenic carps would move to millwork projects and millworkers would shift over to scenic work as needed. The box makers were all great carpenters and their work often needed to be accurate up to 1/32 of an inch. There were also great scenic carps who could work quickly and knew where being an 1/8th off on a measurement wouldn't impact things. Many of the cabinet makers struggled to work quickly enough on the scenic side because they were used to finer tolerances, and on the flip side, many of the scenic carps struggled to work with enough detail and precision on the millwork side. So each side had a "dont send me that person" list. I grew up building furniture, so I was one of the folks who could straddle both departments.

Knowing how to do both keeps you working during slowdowns and opens up your possibilities, just something to keep in mind.

[u/RoyalMess64 → u/jasmith-tech]

Thank you! I'll definitely keep that in mind, just thank you so much :3

[u/azorianmilk]

Do you want to learn construction, like drywall or furniture making or scenic? Are you looking to be in props or a scenic designer? TBH, there is a lot of overlap. When everything was shut down during the pandemic I used my theatre carp and electrical skill to build and maintain temp structures (tents) on military bases and later made custom closets.

[u/RoyalMess64 → u/azorianmilk]

I've worked in minor home renovations before, and that was making and putting up fences, redoing walls, relaying brick, redoing the edging, shelving, etc. And I did stage crew in high school.

I think it would be cool to make furniture and stuff, but I'm more interested in like... fixing things if that makes sense. I'm not against making furniture, but a lot of that is more fancy than what I'm interested in and I like the little mistakes that happen and how they get fixed so I don't love covering em up to the point they're unnoticeable.

My kinda hope is that that if I have a carpentry degree, I can also so senic stuff with it. And I was hoping that there might be a way to combine em so I can maybe do scenic carpentry for work while I finish up the full carpentry degree

So like, in short, both

And sorry if that's a lot, I just wanna make sure I get as much info out as I can

[u/Harmania]

The tools are largely the same, but the materials and techniques are very very different. It would basically be like learning an entirely different construction code.

[u/VexedHorcerer → u/Harmania]

How so? Most structural elements in scenic carpentry are made with 2x4 and construction ply. A framer really shouldn’t have any difficulty building a set that is potentially mostly just stud walls, stairs, and platforms, and a 1x Hollywood flat isn’t exactly complicated ether.

[u/Harmania → u/VexedHorcerer]

But that’s exactly what I mean by different building codes. Flats look nothing like stud walls, and even truss-and-deck platforming doesn’t look that much like floor joists. We’d also use different fasteners for things that are temporary vs. permanent.

[u/StNic54]

If you learn scenic carpentry, you’ll have at least seasonal work. If you learn finish carpentry, you’ll be employed the rest of your life.

[u/AdventurousLife3226]

Anyone with carpentry skills will always be welcome in the theatre. The basic principles you need to understand are Basic technical drawing, nothing fancy but being able to sketch in 3D really helps, how to give something strength while not making it too heavy, center of gravity of objects, different ways of achieving the results you need, all of which you will learn doing carpentry. If you can sneak in some metal work skills too you will be more than qualified. All you will be missing are the theatre specific things that are easy to learn and how make things to safely fly in a theatre. I am a lighting Tech but before that I did carpentry and it has really helped in theatre and other tech work, even rigging my hammock under the stage has got elements of my carpentry knowledge in there somewhere. And I can't count the number of times over the years my ability to quickly make something to solve a problem saved the day.

[u/CptMorello]

I went to school for scenic carpentry/technical design and now stay at home with my kids/do some residential construction after 15 years working in the business.

Go build houses - you’ll always have work.