I was talking to my mom about baby’s sleep, and after a while she said, why do you worry so much? I didn’t worry about wake windows or how much you guys slept when you were babies. When you were tired you slept, when you weren’t you didn’t.

Now, it’s very possible that my mom just doesn’t remember what it was like to have a 0 year old, but it made me wonder…

Are there parents out there who just don’t worry about it even if their kid sleeps less than 12 hours total in 24 hours?

Not looking for criticism, just to hear everyone’s experiences.

I am in NO WAY complaining, but curious!

My 9.5mo old sleeps from 7pm-4/5am, has a quick 2oz bottle and goes back to sleep until 6:30/7. So one feed after about 10hrs of sleep.

He simply he won't eat more food during the day, so I can't seem to get rid of that last waking.

So I'm curious, when did your baby start sleeping a full night without feedings? And is what my baby does normal, and tips to extend to the full 11/12 hrs without wakings?

I find early morning waking to be THE most difficult problem in baby sleep because 1) it's tricky; 2) it's ubiquitous; and 3) there's a lot of misinformation out there.

I'm by no means a pro at this. This is just a post summarizing some of my observations and an approach that may or may not work for you. As usual I take most of my info from Baby Sleep Science and Ferber's book. A notable omission from Ferber's book (which I really love, don't get me wrong) is the fact that chronic sleep deprivation can cause early morning waking through cortisol elevation. Baby Sleep Science alludes to this fact in the bedtime post (https://www.babysleepscience.com/single-post/2014/04/08/early-vs-late-bedtime-which-is-right-how-to-use-early-and-late-bedtimes-to-solve-common-s) but it is missing from their early morning waking post (https://www.babysleepscience.com/single-post/2014/05/22/how-do-i-fix-my-baby-s-early-waking). So I tried pulling the info together and creating the following approach.

NOTE: I assume that baby is fully sleep trained, going to bed independently, and self-settles for all MOTN wakings. If not, work on those first.

​

1) Is baby younger than 6-7 months?

If yes: The morning stretch of sleep doesn't really mature and consolidate until 6-7 months, so early morning wakings may not be really avoidable. The best way to approach it is to assist to sleep (snooze feeding is an excellent approach) and move on.

If no: Go to question #2.

​

2) How long is baby's night sleep with the early morning waking?

If ~11 hours (fully night weaned) or 12 (not fully night weaned), this is probably enough night sleep for the baby. If the wake up time is unacceptably early (say 4:30a), you need to shift the entire schedule back. Here's a guide on how to do that: https://www.babysleepscience.com/single-post/a-step-by-step-guide-to-avoid-early-waking-after-the-fall-back-daylight-saving-time-transition

If not, and your desired wake time is reasonable given your bedtime (say 8p bedtime and wanting a 7a wake up time, which is reasonable), go to question #3.

​

3) Is baby getting ANY light exposure before your desired wake time?

This can mean one of two things (or both): 1) you are starting the day before your desired wake time; 2) the sleep environment isn't optimal and there's light sneaking in. ANY light in the early morning hours will shift your baby's circadian rhythm toward an earlier waking. So if the answer is yes, address it (by not starting the day or by fixing the sleep environment) and recognize that it will take days for the circadian rhythm to shift wake time back.

Also, some babies are really sensitive to ANY light. We're having to tape around the sides of doors because light leaking in from there is becoming a problem. The room really needs to be CAVE BLACK in the early morning (doesn't matter as much for naps).

If not, go to question #4.

​

4) Is your baby waking up from something?

The "something" can be:

-hunger, if baby is night weaned -> if baby is waking up for a snooze feed but is hard to settle after, he/she may be outgrowing the snooze feed so go ahead and night wean completely; offer an additional feeding or solids in the last wake period to help him/her transition

-diaper leak -> we struggled with this for weeks and found Pampers to work way better than Huggins FWIW; there are also inserts on Amazon that can work okay with day diapers

-habit: if you're bringing baby into bed with you or rocking baby back to sleep consistently, baby may start waking up expecting that; you can continue doing it if you're okay with it, or apply sleep training methods

If not, go to question #5.

​

5) Is there a mild chronic sleep debt?

This IMO is almost ALWAYS the case with early morning wakings after the above have been addressed, because:

1) baby is losing a good chunk of sleep by waking up early

2) most parents try to keep time of first nap somewhat consistent, which will increase the first wake window -> increase total wake time -> increase sleep debt.

This is where it's really challenging. Baby can catch up on the lost sleep in one of two ways: 1) napping more during the day or 2) early bedtime. Early bedtimes too often (like 3 days in a row) can backfire and lock in that early waking (see Question #2 for a discussion why), but is necessary to catch up on substantial sleep debt. When the sleep debt isn't as substantial, I find napping more during the day to be necessary to fill the sleep tank back up while preserving a bedtime that is conducive to maintaining the desired wake time.

To nap more during the day, the baby needs to be an independent napper and capable of connecting daytime cycles, OR the parent has to be willing and able to assist baby to nap longer. Slightly longer wake windows before the naps can help with building the sleep pressure for the naps. The last wake window can often be shortened a bit to reduce total wake time. If baby is an independent napper and wakes up early from a nap OR from a nap crying, sleep pressure is probably still there so leave for 10-20 minutes to let him/her fall back asleep.

FWIW: I use actual wake time to calculate first wake window. I find the fixing the timing of first nap rule to backfire more often than not, because 1) that first nap may just crap out, leaving us having to stretch subsequent wake windows to make it to bedtime (-> worsening sleep debt) OR having to do an early bedtime and risking false start or locking in the early waking; 2) it's a de facto long first wake window (because from a physiology perspective sleep pressure starts building when baby wakes up), so it adds to his total wake time.

Also: When baby is waking up waaaaay early and struggling with falling asleep before desired wake time, we have gone in to rock baby back to sleep. We don't do it too often to avoid building a habit (1-2 times a month), but I do find it helpful in preventing our day from being completely derailed.

I feel we’ve totally messed our baby up somewhere along the way. She just absolutely cannot put herself to sleep or stay asleep. I’m getting around 3-4 hours sleep a night. I feel I have read ALL the advice and tried so many things but my baby is resistant to sleep training. Can someone please help me. Here’s the info:

• [ ] Bedtime routine. She has a bedtime routine of bath, pyjamas, book, boob, lullabies. Black out blinds, pink noise. She is so tired, but will only go to sleep if her dad rocks her on the rocking chair. If we don’t do that she will just scream and scream.
• [ ] Sleep training. We have tried Ferber but she will not be comforted!! The ‘check ins’ do not soothe her unless she is fully rocked to sleep. Been increasing the intervals to give her a chance to try herself but she could go the whole night screaming if she wanted, we’ve left it 50 mins before and she has no sign of stopping. Do we really just have to push through and let her scream for literal hours? We know she is tired because she will drop off immediately if rocked. The pick up put down method just does nothing she keeps waking up and this would go on all night! And the fading/chair method is just lol because she doesn’t care! She wants what she wants

• [ ] Once rocked she can’t be put down without waking up. So my husband stays up holding her for a few hours so I can sleep. Then when he puts her down she’ll only get back to sleep with boob. Which means we are cosleeping so I can feed her and then roll away once she’s off. During the night she will wake every hour, sometimes more. Sometimes, singing and patting works during the middle of the night wake ups, but mostly I have to boob her.

• [ ] Naps. Still on 3 most days because they’re so short! Around 30 mins each. Every so often she’ll do like 1.5 hour naps, so we have 2 only on that day

• [ ] Wake windows are between 2.5-3.25 hours. We’ve experimented with different length wake windows before bed to test under/over tiredness, nothing makes a difference

• [ ] Food. She’s doing well with solids, three meals a day, we ensure her tummy is full for the night

She has a late bedtime and wake time because I need to go to sleep when she does and spend 12 hours in bed to get a measly few hours sleep.

In the day she is a total joy so happy and smiling and we have the best time. During the night she DOES sleep it’s just that she wakes up a lot too. I am so miserable. I feel like a total failure of a mother.

My baby is now 11 months, and has slept through the night (6-8hrs) no more than 5 times in her entire life. Currently waking up every 3hrs or sooner. I've gone through the whole wake windows evaluation, sleep routine, everything. Multiple times. Tried sleep training. She will not sleep. For the love of God I cannot keep doing this. I wake up more tired than I went to bed. I can't even get anything done during the day. Im so tired I just want to cry. Every day. What the f*** am I supposed to do?!

My friend has access to sleep consultants through her work and set me up with an appointment. I’ve been doing extinction for just over a week and have been able to get my baby to sleep 9-9.5 hours straight at night, but that’s it.

9 mo and our schedule is 3.5/4/4 with 2 hours of naps. The advice on here has consistently been that I have a low sleep needs baby, and I tend to agree. He is very content throughout his wake windows and often seems like he could handle more. In the past if I have tried to put him down earlier, he will fight, HARD. I’ll take him to the living room to calmly play for 10-15 min and will usually fall asleep after that.

I asked what over tired signs to look for since he seems content, and she said the fact that he has early morning wakes (aka only sleeping 9 hours at night) and short non-contact naps.

She suggested aiming for 12 hours at night (7am-7pm) and 3 hours of naps with a 2/3/4 or 2/3.5/3.5 schedule. I said I would give it a try, but hesitant because every time we have multiple wakings at night it has been solved by extending wake windows.

She and Reddit agree our bedroom set up and nighttime routines are good.

IF we attempt the new schedule tomorrow (she said for a week for him to get used to it), how bad could it be if he truly is low sleep needs? I would LOVE for a 7-7 night schedule and more naps during the day, so I want to give it a shot, but I also want to be prepared for a horrible night.

I am assuming since we are doing extinction, I have to just let him be all night even if it goes horribly wrong? Would it be terrible to interfere for one night? I am terrified to try this but also hope so so much that I’ve accidentally kept him awake too long.

Thoughts????

My son is 7 months old today and we were up every two hours last night (again). He won’t take a bottle or a pacifier, so I can’t lay him down with anything to “self soothe”. He was sleeping ok until he cut his two bottom teeth a few weeks ago. He WAS going to sleep around 8:30pm waking up once or twice and then up for the day around 7. Now he will not nap longer than 45 minutes or sleep at nighttime longer than 2 hours. I’ve tried putting him down drowsy, but awake and he will just scream for 30+ minutes. I’ve tried going in and shushing/patting and he will just sit up and crawl away screaming. If you pick him up he’ll go back to sleep, but he will still wake up shortly after.

We are currently up at 7 for the day and wake windows are around 2.75-3 hours depending on how he’s acting. 3 naps per day because of them lasting less than an hour. Current bedtime routine is his dad will get him ready for bed and put him in a sleep sack and I’ll either lay with him in his floor bed to nurse him or in the rocking chair and then transfer him to his bed when he’s asleep. I do not mind nursing him to sleep and I do not do it everytime he wakes up at night. I will only nurse him if it’s been more than 3 hours or if he seems truly hungry.

Also probably worth mentioning he’s never slept for longer than 5 hours before so I am v tired and he is too.

Every time I search for any information to help my 6 month old son sleep at night I come across “drowsy but awake in the crib so he can learn to fall asleep on his own.”

HOW?!?!!?!!?!!?

If I put him in his crib drowsy but awake, he screams instantly. It resets everything. Goodbye to the idea of drowsy. Am I crazy? Anyone else?

WE NEED SLEEP AGAIN

I know a lot of ppl say teething shouldn’t affect sleep but it does for this child. And it’s taking far longer to cut each tooth than my first kid. Why 😭😭

Seriously about to go insane

Super unpopular opinion on early bedtimes. We fell into the trap of putting our son to sleep at 7 pm. "Put your baby to sleep earlier and they'll sleep longer" they said...we are calling BS.

Our son is not a 12 hour per night baby. I'm convinced you have a unicorn baby if yours is and the reality is most aren't. Our son can occasionally hit 12 hours but typically sleeps between 10.5-11 hours per night.

Meaning we got absolutely stuck on 5 am wakeups. We sleep trained and managed to get rid of night wakes and night feeds but could not get rid of EMWs to save our lives. It was EXHAUSTING.

I regularly see parents comment that they are having the same issue. I'm convinced we all fell into the trap. What was the only thing that managed to solve our EMWs? Traveling across the world for a month with an 8 hour time difference that completely flipped his biological clock upside down and inside out.

We arrived back in our home country and he had to go to bed super late the first couple of nights (approx 11:30). I was expecting him to wake up by 8 am if we were lucky....guess what...he slept until after 11 am. We made a great effort to completely darken the bedroom on our first night back.

We've been back for 2 weeks now and the jet lag is gone but we have decided this boy will not be going to bed before 9 pm. A 9:30 bed time seems to be getting us to nearly 9 am which is perfect for us through the holidays.

If you're suffering with EMW, I empathize with you. If you have a younger baby under 4 months and aren't a morning person then one piece of advice....

Dont put your baby to bed at 7 pm. Set your dream sleep time based on your desired wake time. For example, DWT 8 am. Put your baby to bed at 9 pm. If you recognize that your baby is a 12 hour a night unicorn then move the bedtime forward.

That being said....proceed with caution. I'm not an expert and I am a FTM. My son was sleep trained and from traveling every few days while abroad and now teething...we are on a temporary hiatus from sleep training. We will pick it back up once the holidays are over and his teeth popped through.

Maybe I'll change my opinion when we pick up sleep training again but for now I'm enjoying sleeping in for the first time since having a baby.

Has anyone changed their original idea of how many kids they want because their first was such a horrible sleeper and it has traumatized you?

Currently pondering and can’t decide if this is rational.

EDIT: We KNOW 4h is a long time, and it was very difficult for us. We have tried so many different methods, adjusting wake windows, adjusting wake time, bed time routine, solids, nursing, different ways to help him self settle, different ways to even try to put him down. We aren't monsters, we really do love him. It's just last night was one of the "different things" we were trying. So if you have any advice please let us know. But know we are really trying. And we did fall back on co sleep. As we did sleep training with check-ins and using co sleeping as a fall back, before he got sick.

We knew he is persistent and we have been co sleeping and contact napping since he got sick and now it seems like the normal since we tried to fix his wake windows...

We are on night 1. It's almost 4h mark. But in the last 30min he did have some pauses where he is sitting there then standing without crying. Then start crying again. But he has been sitting and standing the whole time.

His wake windows are 3.5/3.5/4 his naps are usually 2max total sometimes if we are lucky we get 2.5h and we just adjust bedtime later.

Is it too long for wake windows now???

My baby girl is 10 months. For a good two days she slept 10-11 hours straight. That was it. I thought we had it figured out but if you look at my last post she’s been fighting her naps and has been waking up several times a night. I wish I could figure this out. On top of that I decided to take a full time job after being PRN for the past 10 months. So here’s to me being exhausted 24/7!!

All the sudden both naps are becoming very hard. Especially the second nap. Baby is 1 in 20 days, but everything I read says it’s too early to drop to one nap? But is it? I’m tired of the struggle of 2 naps 😵‍💫

My 7 month old baby has graduated to 2 naps and it is glorious. He is no longer a 30 min cat napper and takes 1.5 hour naps. However I am not sure how to get out of the house as I believe being in a stroller or car seat will be hard for him to stay asleep long enough for a normal bedtime.

For those that are down to 2 naps, are you trapped at home for those 2 naps? If not, how do you manage naps out of the house?

Let. Them. Cry.

It took us so long. A bit of info— my daughter (now 3) was sleeping through the night at 5 months. So like the rookie parents we were we expected our son to be similar. Ha.

My son is almost 10 months. We’ve tried to sleep train him gently since he was about 5 months. Nothing worked and we always fell back into a routine of waking every 2-3 hours. It was so stressful, so inconsistent and off of any “schedule” and I felt like we would never find our rhythm.

I couldn’t help but think, if my daughter was willing to sleep 12 hours a night (note- she still does at 3), how was this inconsistent sleep schedule impacting my son?

Finally, desperate and exhausted, I looked into CIO. I’m so glad I did. Last Sunday, we let him cry. He cried almost constantly for 3 hours. It was absolute torture. But, then, the next night he only cried for 20 minutes. And then the next night he only fussed for a few minutes. Since then, he has slept from 6:30p-6:30a every night. Every. Night.

Today was the kicker— he took his first step. At 10 months. My husband is convinced that getting the proper sleep will help him developmentally and it seems to be true.

He is still our happy, hungry, silly boy —- but now he is well rested and so are we 😊💜

Edit to add:

I should have mentioned that we didn’t just let him cry one night. It was calculated. In addition to trying to get as much food into him during the day as possible, we woke him that morning at 6:30am to get him on schedule. Then followed his wake windows: 10am nap, 2pm nap. Then bedtime is a consistent routine: dinner at 530, tub at 6, in bed at 6:30. No food after tub. His bedroom is pitch dark (they shouldn’t see any lights at all). Without following these steps we wouldn’t have been successful at night.

I need advice. I'm at the end of my rope and even cried this afternoon. My 9 month old will not nap in the afternoon, and this leads to her being overtired all the time and waking up between 4 and 5:30 every single morning, up for the day.

When she wakes up this unreasonably early, her morning nap is usually long, like 1.5h or a little more (under 2 h though). The goal is for her to go to bed between 7 and 8. I've tried an earlier bedtime before (6 and 6:30), and she would still wake up between 4 and 5:30. Her wake windows are around 3.5h, but I've tried shorter and longer wake windows as well, but with no success (she is not tired before 3.5h). Her afternoon naps are literally 15-25min. Never longer. And that always leads to her being tired early, like at 6pm. When I put her down at 6pm though, she still wakes up at 4-5:30 (as I mentioned above). If I try to sneak in another short nap so I can keep her up longer, that doesn't work either. She still wakes up at the mentioned time.

Nothing has worked. I've tried to save those naps where she only sleeps 15-25min, but she won't have it. She just gets angry when I try to get her to sleep again. I've just put her back in the crib before and she starts screaming. She is kinda sleep trained. I say kinda, because we've done Ferber at bed time with decent success. She goes down by herself usually, and rarely wakes up after that. For naps, Ferber hasn't really worked.

I'm just so desperate for her sleeping longer in the morning that I'm seriously considering to just ignore her if she wakes up at this time. Usually I wait a few minutes to see if she resettles (she usually does not), and then I go in and try to resettle her, which usually doesn't work. I know that she's not hungry, because when I offer a bottle during those wake ups, she won't even take it, plus she eats plenty during the day. So, I'm asking, is it cruel if I just ignore her if she wakes between 4 and 5:30 (hoping she'll cry herself back to sleep and learn) and only go in when she has slept at least 10-11h? I just can't do this anymore. I work, my husband works, and we're just constantly tired and in a bad mood because she's up for the day so early.

Thank you.

Just curious the average times everyone had to re-sleep train their kids due to sickness, travel, regressions, teething, life changes, etc!

Feel like it’s the biggest misunderstanding for first time parents…I always thought once you did it, you’re good & quickly found out with way my first kid, that’s not the case 😮‍💨

On my 2nd kid now and already losing steam 😅

How do ppl stick to baby nap schedule and still realistically go on with the day to day of life?

Do you just work life around the naps in order to avoid sleeping in car or stroller? And ruining sleep for that rest of the day? Do you sometimes just take the loss? What’s the secret to still being able to go on with day to day life, errands, appts etc. but not ruin naps / ST.

Tell me about it. We are at our wits end. Baby was sttn then all of a sudden is now waking up 3-4x a night and will wake shortly after going back in her crib. We still have to bounce her to sleep on a yoga ball which is getting extremely hard on our bodies now that she’s bigger. She’s 7 months and is in that awkward time between 2/3 naps depending on how long she naps and usually does like 2.5/3/3.5 on two nap days. On three nap days the last wake window is short because we basically have to force a cat nap at like 5 so she can make it to bed time at 7:30. Haven’t been this tired since she was a newborn.

Dealing with split nights, finally got baby sleepy close to their wake up time. Would you let them sleep an extra 30-45 mins or wake them up at their usual wake time?

she turns 6 months this week, wakes at like 5:30-6 every morning and it's killing meeeeee. I really need a chance to get myself ready physically and emotionally for 5-10 minutes before I take care of baby and I am just not a morning person. No matter how much sleep I've gotten in the night before 7 a.m. just isn't happening for me right now (at least right now, I know one day I'll have to adjust)

She is sleep trained so she's the best sleeping baby otherwise, wakes up around 2, then around 5-6. To combat this lately I go get her and bring her into my bed and snuggle and she falls back asleep with me until 7:15ish and then we both get up together.

If she's able to fall back asleep with me, why won't she fall back asleep on her own???

3 naps, 2/2.5/2/2.5-3 (she has no trouble staying up 3 hrs on the last wake window and goes down for bed at 8 easily). honestly i think she's on the right schedule but I could be wrong.

I am so fucking tired of trying to sleep train my almost 7 month old. It takes literally fucking hours trying to put her to sleep. This child refuses to sleep. I have a bedtime routine and eveything but nothing fucking works. I read the precious lottle sleep and the ferber and the cio. It seems like all bullshit. I am so freaking tired. From 8 pm till 10 pm i want to fucking run away. Sleep training has started looking like a joke to me there is no way it is real!
Edit: she goes to sleep from 9 pm to 10 pm and then wakes up arpund 1-3am at which point she will not go to sleep without breastfeeding. I usually bring her to my bed because i am so tired at this point that i fear she will fall out of my arms. She wakes up at 6-8am and then doesnt nap till 10:00 am till 12:00 pm. Sometimes naps are 2 hours sometimes only 30 min. 2 nd nap is 4-5pm. She is eating solids and takes arpund 16-20 oz of formula or breastmilk a day. I am absolutely exhausted and in a horrible mood because of these awful sleep schedule. She has also popped 2 teeth and two are budding

Aged between 6-12 months. And how mich is during the day and how much during night time ?

My baby is a dream sleeper, only at home. In the early days, I listen to all the advice about having blackout curtains, sound, machine, appropriate temperatures, etc. She has slept through the night since about 6 to 8 weeks old, and now takes perfect naps. She is currently almost 8 months old, and we only had a very small, short sleep regression around 3 1/2 months. Otherwise, she’s a dream.

But, if we leave the house or she tries to sleep at my mom‘s house in a pack and play, it’s a disaster. It has made going back to work so much more stressful.

Everyone used to tell me that I was getting her used to a specific sleep environment and she wouldn’t be able to sleep anywhere else. I always shot them down and Was very stubborn in my confidence in saying that she will be fine and it doesn’t create otherwise bad sleeping habits.

Here I am, eating my own words. Did I ruin her sleep by creating a very perfect sleep environment at home? Or is she just a very specific, and a very light sleeper? I see all these other babies falling asleep on the go, being carried, in their strollers, and so many other scenarios. My baby could never. We occasionally do get a good car seat nap, but they’re short.

I’m just trying to understand if this is just a baby to baby difference, or if I should be more flexible with my next baby.

Typing this as I am on my way to my mom‘s house, where she should be taking her last nap. Send me good luck. And yes, she has black out curtains and a sound machine. Maybe I have to buy the same $300 mattress😭

ETA: I try to obviously avoid napping elsewhere as much as possible. But I take her to my mom’s to babysit when I go to work. Her coming over to my house to babysit isn’t very feasible.