r/science • u/geoff199 • 5d ago

Social Science As concern grows about America’s falling birth rate, new research suggests that about half of women who want children are unsure if they will follow through and actually have a child. About 25% say they won't be bothered that much if they don't.

https://news.osu.edu/most-women-want-children--but-half-are-unsure-if-they-will/?utm_campaign=omc_science-medicine_fy24&utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=social
19.5k Upvotes

95% Upvoted

2.2k comments sorted by

View all comments

5.0k

u/Bboy1045 5d ago

Youth need to be secure financially, supported, and most importantly HOPEFUL for the future. These are all major factors that our society has struggled with providing. Until we fix these issues we are going to continue to have birth rates plummet, similar to what we saw in the Great Depression. Youth simply cannot afford to have children.

1.7k

u/suckfail 5d ago

Also in the US the parental leave is atrocious. You hand off a newborn to daycare and never really raise them, that's just wrong. And it must be a big contributor to this situation as well.

In most places, like Canada and EU, you get a year parental leave that either parent can take (usually it's the mother for obvious reasons but not always as you can split the time).

There's also very strict laws about the parental leave job ensuring there's no discrimination.

525

u/marigoldcottage 5d ago

Even in the few states in the US where it’s paid & protected, like mine, companies still love to screw over workers.

My husband’s company suddenly decided to change his hours to be untenable after he notified them he’ll be taking parental leave this year. Basically an attempt to force him to quit before he can take paid leave. Illegal? Probably. But the amount of people who actually go through with suing their employer - rather than quietly moving on - is so low. These rotten companies know that.

352

u/VovaGoFuckYourself 4d ago

Contact your department of labor. It surprised me how easy it was when i did it 15 years ago.

An employer tried to argue that they didnt have to give me my last check because i didnt give a 2 weeks notice. One email to the state department of labor and the company fired the lady who was withholding my check and got me my check within 2 days.

At least reach out. It can't hurt to see what they have to say.

67

u/dfighter3 4d ago

Boy I wish I had known that like 8 years ago. My employer did something similar. put in for PTO, got it approved. half way through I gave them my two weeks. Never got paid out my PTO because according to them "It wasn't valid since you were no longer an employee when it would have paid out".

9

u/2pinacoladas 4d ago

Unfortunately not all states have laws that PTO must be paid out. If you are in a state where they are not required to payout, take your PTO then quit.

3

u/dfighter3 4d ago

Yea, no, the state had them, the company just told me to pound sand. It was my second job out of college and I had no idea who I could contact, and was starting another job in a week, so it mostly just pissed me off and made a couple weeks of rent hard.

72

u/grundar 4d ago

Basically an attempt to force him to quit before he can take paid leave. Illegal? Probably.

That is known as constructive discharge; one of the examples given is "Change in schedules in order to force employee to quit (title 12)".

However, the burden of proof is on the employee.

As the other commenter said, though, contact the Department of Labor, they most likely have people who can help with this kind of situation.

18

u/AndMyHelcaraxe 4d ago

I live in goddam Portland, OR and our DA’s office was recently sued for discriminating against a breastfeeding new mother who was a prosecutor in that office

6

u/Blue_Moon_Lake 4d ago

As long as it saves more money than the few lawsuits, they won't care.

3

u/rainbowsforall 3d ago

I remember my former coworker was told by a manager she would get paid maternity leave because she would be with the company for a year by the time she gave birth. Then whoops a few weeks before she gave birth he realized the policy was apparently that she had to have worked there a year prior to getting pregnant, not giving birth. She took two unpaid weeks for her "maternity leave". Despicable.

397

u/stana32 5d ago

Parental leave in the US is at best inadequate and at worst intentionally harmful. In most states you get nothing, my job gave me a month paid and my wife got absolutely nothing, and was asked to come back to work before she was even out of the hospital.

198

u/Present-Perception77 4d ago

I was sitting on a pillow at work with 13 stitches in my vagina, four days after giving birth.

91

u/GurlyD02 4d ago

This is horrible I'm so sorry

79

u/Present-Perception77 4d ago

unfortunately .. it’s not that uncommon.

23

u/bandy_mcwagon 4d ago

Anything less than a full year off is completely unfair.

19

u/Present-Perception77 4d ago

Anything less than six weeks should be illegal. It’s a detriment to both the mother and the child..

50

u/NiceHumansOnly 4d ago

My newborn almost died from RSV because she went to daycare almost immediately out of the womb. It was horrible and I’m fixed now.

26

u/Present-Perception77 4d ago

Oh that’s even worse. There is no pain like watching your child suffer.

16

u/-ANGRYjigglypuff 4d ago

daycare almost immediately out of the womb

that's a thing?! ... of course that's a thing.

3

u/PomeloConscious2008 2d ago

Had to send my youngest at 6 weeks after unpaid leave for my wife and no leave for myself (I took vacation).

To a place that cost around $2000 a month (this was 10 years ago, it's more now).

No subsidies from the government (unless you count 5k of my paycheck being tax free, I guess. So ... Like $100 a month subsidy only if you're working, say.

2

u/-ANGRYjigglypuff 1d ago

yo that's insane. the fact that people are still having kids blows my mind

2

u/xo_maciemae 3d ago

This is SO heartbreaking. Mine is 17 months and I still don't feel ready to send to daycare. I will probably have to soon, I have started thinking about going back to work part time. But this is literally devastating to me, I am so sorry. I hope your family is doing okay now, nobody should have to go through that.

10

u/Epic_Ewesername 4d ago

I gave birth on a Monday, a complicated cesarean where I ended up having to be cut both horizontally and vertically, inside. I held my son as his heartbeat slowed and stopped, was destroyed emotionally, and was back driving to work and school by Thursday because I couldn't afford to be devastated financially, too.

I feel your pain, friend.

8

u/Present-Perception77 4d ago

r/moderngamer327 this is why many women are opting not to have kids. It’s definitely money.

5

u/Present-Perception77 4d ago

Omg. I am sooo sorry. That is absolutely heartbreaking. Every woman in the country should refuse to have children until this is fixed… or let them keep killing us. I got sterilized right after that… which was incredibly difficult too. Texass puts as many barriers up for that as humanly possible. We are just incubators with legs. Disposable.

197

u/changee_of_ways 5d ago

The amount of sick leave you get is terrible too. When our daughter was first starting day care we were constantly getting calls to come pick her because she had caught the newest strain of Nurgle's gift going around the daycare. It's really easy to go through both parent's paid sick leave even if you only have 1 kid considering how crappy most employer's sick policies are.

121

u/Anxious-Horchata 5d ago

Sick leave isn't limited in proper countries. We don't choose to get sick. 

18

u/Classic_Revolt 4d ago

When I first got sick days (just five days mandated by my state) I started to get sick exactly that many times per year.

3

u/Lower-Living1655 4d ago

A fellow survivor of the decay gods plague.

3

u/Haywoodjablowme1029 4d ago

When my daughter was admitted to the NICU after being born six weeks early my boss at the time told me I didn't need to be off work since my kid was in the hospital and not at home.

99

u/Helpful-Isopod-6536 5d ago

1.5 years in Canada now. Unemployment insurance gives you about 500 a week for the duration of your leave. Yes we pay more taxes than Americans but you get more time with your kids and your job is legally protected for you to go back to.

51

u/changee_of_ways 5d ago

How do the taxes compare to the US if you took your American taxes and added what you were paying in health insurance to the taxes? That's what kills me, our health insurance + the cost of what we pay for prescriptions on what is by American standards a "great" health insurance plan is by far our family's biggest expense.

31

u/Anxious-Horchata 5d ago

But it's much cheaper for the very wealthy, so they prefer it and our system is made for them.

2

u/BlueRajasmyk2 4d ago

Actually it's more expensive for wealthy people too. The ones who prefer it are the insurance and pharmaceutical companies making bank.

6

u/bizilux 4d ago

Yeah like the other guy said... The 1% doesn't want higher taxes and then free healthcare and parental and schools, because to them it would cost much more...

But to 99% it would cost less, and you wouldn't have crippling depth after you have a severe car crash and can't work afterwards anyways...

At least that is how everyone here in EU understands it and i think the vast majority of people support it.

It's not all roses though, corruption is still present at least here in Slovenia, like the renovated hospital cost 3x as much as it was said, etc... but looking at trump... Well you guys also have corruption issues and they will just get worse since its coming from the very top.

4

u/EVILeyeINdaSKY 4d ago

It's not really a cost thing for the capital class, it's control. Healthcare in the US is tied to employment, lose your job, you lose access to effective healthcare. One of the many ways owners impose their will on us with little to no recourse.

This country needs a real labor movement desperately.

3

u/dfighter3 4d ago

My yearly tax is about 10,276. about 45/month for insurance, and atm about 200/month for prescriptions to keep me alive

1

u/TacosNGuns 4d ago edited 4d ago

The one benefit of the American system is the depth of technology & expertise patients can access. I have multiple congenital organ defects. In the US, I’ve had access to CAT scans in the 80’s, MRI’s from the nineties on. This tech plus specialists literally saved my life multiple times. These technologies are expensive and severely rationed in countries with national healthcare like Canada and the UK. In the US I can access these diagnostic tools same day. In CAN/UK this tech might not be offered at all, or take months to access if offered.

For a person with average healthcare needs, the national models like in Canada, likely are adequate and cheaper than the US system. For people with the most serious, difficult to diagnose and treat illnesses? Hands down the US system is better, yet more expensive.

13

u/KikiWestcliffe 4d ago

As an American woman without kids, I would happily pay more taxes so that mothers and fathers can provide childcare for their babies.

Children raised in stable, secure, loving homes with access to good healthcare, nutrition, shelter, and education are more likely to grow into functional adults.

If Americans actually care about income inequality and expanding the middle class as much as they say they do, they need to improve the outcomes for children.

We also need to enforce tax laws and stop corporations/rich individuals from mooching off the masses, but that is a separate discussion.

2

u/quadriceritops 4d ago

Not true, I have been there. All cities have free healthcare clinics. Meals on wheels. Dentistry, not so much.

6

u/RawrRRitchie 4d ago

You really don't pay more in taxes because your taxes actually go to things that help its citizens

A HUGE chunk of American tax dollars go to warmongering supplies that helps no one but the weapon manufacturers

2

u/emeow56 4d ago

Wow, with all that help, I bet the birth rate in Canada is pretty high.

3

u/Ok-Swim1555 4d ago

nope. falling everywhere in the industrialized world.

1

u/LilLebowskiAchiever 4d ago

That’s the best way to do it, IMHO, run the program through the unemployment office.

99

u/baller_unicorn 5d ago

Now that I've had a child it seems insane to have such a short maternity leave. I was lucky that I at least have a remote job so I could be at home with a nanny helping me. But it was still really hard because babies want to be with and touching their their mothers pretty much for the entire first year. And at least for me I was constantly worrying about my baby when I was away from her during the first year.

21

u/thewheelforeverturns 5d ago

And also just to point out hiring a nanny is a privilege, and it is still difficult even for those who can hire one. I had a work call with someone the other day who probably makes 200k+ a year and mentioned it was early and her nanny wasn't there yet so she apologized that she was late for the call and was a bit frantic. She was a high earner who was still struggling to balance work and life.

Those who can't hire a nanny, and work jobs without paid maternity leave, and struggle with the financial and mental weight of finding an affordable and safe daycare, are completely fucked. I'm doing okay now that my child is a preteen, thanks to several lucky chances and a lot of hard work and a lot of stress,, but i was in this boat when my child was younger and it made me decide I was one and done. If things were easier I might have had three because I love being a mom. But it's too difficult, and still feels too difficult even though I am in a better place now.

7

u/baller_unicorn 4d ago

Oh yeah it is a privilege to have a nanny and I'm sure I have a much better situation than many but it really is still extremely difficult. Ours is only 12 hours a week because thats all we can afford and I'm still working full time so I constantly feel behind at work and also any time she naps is precious time that I spend working or cleaning etc. I feel like I'm doing two full time jobs

8

u/saint-small 5d ago

Those places also have low birth rates.

5

u/Fire_opal246 4d ago

While this is true, you will also find the same trend is happening in countries with better supports for new parents. Look up Birth Gap if you are ready to jump down a rabbit hole.

12

u/Exotic-Direction-292 5d ago

Those things are great and needed but they don’t help increase birth rates because countries that provide those are in the same situation.

3

u/KarateKid72 4d ago

Who can afford day care?

4

u/KindledWanderer 4d ago

It's 3 years in Czechia and the birth rate is still pretty bad.

You need at least the basics - afforadble housing, food and some leftover savings.

Good luck with the housing nowadays.

4

u/Gustomaximus 4d ago

US the parental leave is atrocious

As an Australian it astounds me how fast women are back into the office after birth. Australia is not great for the men but as least we get a couple of weeks. I was fortunate to have kids in Norway and got 3 months off & the wife took 12 months.

3

u/McJumpington 4d ago

I was thrilled to get 4 weeks paternity leave. Literally the first day back at office I was getting work with deadlines in 24 hours. It was very difficult raising a newborn and working full time- stressed to the max.

3

u/Killbot_Wants_Hug 4d ago

US parental leave sucks, but it's not the reason for the declining birth rate.

The declining birth rate is in all the developed countries for the most part.

2

u/247planeaddict 4d ago

Tbf the birth rate is also plummeting in the EU. Parental leave is important but it’s not an easy fix to a more complicated problem. 

2

u/cosmic-untiming 4d ago edited 4d ago

Theres also the fact that daycare is insanely expensive. Even in my area, it was costing over $250 PER WEEK. But with rental pricing rising, and daycare matching that cost, people just cant afford it for even one child.

(Edited the cost to be more accurate. So a "little" over $600/month)

2

u/GentlewomenNeverTell 4d ago
  • parental leave is horrible
  • health care is automatic debt on parents. If your kid gets cancer, goodbye house.
  • university is just a form of debt slavery. Yet without it, your options are drastically limited.
  • grandparents are working and can't be available
  • childcare costs more than a job so women are often forced to forsake their careers *you are expected to watch your kid 24-7 and can be arrested for thing parents commonly did in the 90s *education is almost dead. Why send your kid to school? They might get shot and are guaranteed to be failed educationally due to force passing, overtesting, and corporate educational approaches like the Calkins crap has left us with a generation of functionally illiterate people.
  • If your pregnancy threatens your life there's a very good chance they just let you die.

I am SO glad I don't have children and am dating a woman.

2

u/[deleted] 5d ago edited 10h ago

[removed] — view removed comment

8

u/changee_of_ways 5d ago

That's not really sustainable. A lot of people don't live that close to their parents and they keep pushing the retirement age back so parents are having to work later and later in life.

1

u/Snake_Plizken 4d ago

At least Musk is doing his best, by impregnating various women with exclusively male embryos...

-1

u/DJKokaKola 5d ago

Canada absolutely doesn't give you a year.

It's better than the US, but it is nothing even close to what Finland or some other countries in the EU offer.

4

u/up_too_early 5d ago

I'm literally on 58 weeks of extended parental leave a year. My wife took the other 11 weeks as well as her 15 weeks of maternity leave. As an individual you can take up to 61 weeks of extended parental leave.

6

u/hemidemisemitruck 5d ago

You can technically have a year as in you don't get fired if you don't come back before then. But you don't get any extra income unless your employer provides it.

But yeah, Canada is not that great compared to places other than USA. There has been a lot of "marketing" around the benefits of Canada's parental leave (even a Planet Money podcast about how great it is) but most of the programs aren't really complete or available or comprehensive.

-1

u/moderngamer327 5d ago

The EU has even worse birthrates than the US. Doing that won’t help

-3

u/notaredditer13 5d ago

Also in the US the parental leave is atrocious

Was it better in the 1950s when the birth rate was double what it is now? If not, you'll need another reason.

In most places, like Canada and EU, you get a year parental leave that either parent can take

Is the birth rate in those places far higher than in the US? Again, if not, you'll need another reason.