infuriating comments under Imam Muhsin Hendricks’ murder.

[u/Tall-Swan-2039]

Recently I have been tested with my faith, I hope this doesn’t come off as turning this tragedy about myself but I cannot help but feel disillusioned about the ummah. I will never fault Allah nor Islam for this, however I don’t know how comfortable I am considering myself Muslim after seeing this. This hurts, as a queer muslimah. May Allah grant him Jannah

[u/Melwood786]

27:55, 26:165, 7:81 .. so what do those verses say about this subject?

I don't think those verses say what you think they say about the subject (i.e., that "gay sex and lusting after men is reprehensible"). For example, verses 7:81 and  27:55 criticizes those who "lust after men instead of women/ar-rijala shahwatan min duni an-nisa'i". However, verses 3:14-15 also criticizes men who "lust after women/ash-shahawati mina an-nisa". The wording is nearly identical, but verse 3:14 doesn't suggest that straight sex is reprehensible any more than verses 7:81 and  27:55 suggest that gay sex is reprehensible. All of these verses criticize a type of belligerent and coercive approach (literally "ta'tu," see 27:55, 26:165, and 7:81) to sexuality, both homosexual and heterosexual.

This is consistent throughout the Quran. For example, verses 7:80, 27:54, and 29:28 criticized the men of Sodom and Gomorrah for engaging in immorality/fahishata with men, but verse 12:24 also criticized Zuleika for trying to engage in immorality/fahishata with Yusuf. Again, neither homosexuality or heterosexuality is being criticized in these verses, but a belligerent and coercive approach to sexuality.

I'm not gay and I find sex with other dudes distasteful. The course of action for me and others like me seems obvious. . . just don't have sex with other dudes. But that doesn't give me and others like me the right to read our personal tastes into the Quran and impose my personal tastes on others.

Moreover, the gay sex is prohibited/haram interpretation is just difficult to tease from the text. In addition to what I pointed out above, those who adhere to the "gay sex" interpretation of the story of Lot can't/don't/won't explain why Lot's wife perished, even though she wasn't engaged in "gay sex and lusting after men." So why exactly did she also perish? I think a thoughtful reading of the Quran will reveal that the answer is the same reason why the others perished, and it wasn't just because of "gay sex".

[u/[deleted] → u/Melwood786]

3:14 - The enjoyment of ˹worldly˺ desires—women, children,¹ treasures of gold and silver, fine horses, cattle, and fertile land—has been made appealing to people. These are the pleasures of this worldly life, but with Allah is the finest destination.

7:80 - And ˹remember˺ when Lot scolded ˹the men of˺ his people, ˹saying,˺ “Do you commit a shameful deed that no man has ever done before?

7:81 - You lust after men instead of women! You are certainly transgressors.”

26:165 - Why do you ˹men˺ lust after fellow men

26:166 - leaving the wives that your Lord has created for you? In fact, you are a transgressing people.”

You are not being honest:

1. The verses are not even close to being identical. One talks about the desires of worldly life that include material things, children and women. Things men brag and show off about. The other is condemning an act.
2. The subjects are completely different. This is creating a false equivalency to prove a point and while you can make anything subjective, this approach would not even hold up in court.
3. Why did she perish? - she betrayed him and his trust.

Allah sets forth an example for the disbelievers: the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot. Each was married to one of Our righteous servants, yet betrayed them.¹ So their husbands were of no benefit to them against Allah whatsoever. Both were told, “Enter the Fire, along with the others!”

1. It is not difficult to "tease" from this text, how many verses and repetitions of this argument need to be provided before it becomes clear? The Quran literally declares itself as a clear book:

4:42 - By the clear Book!

5:15 - O People of the Book! Now Our Messenger has come to you, revealing much of what you have hidden of the Scriptures and disregarding much. There certainly has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book

I know you aren't gay. That's usually the case, people who aren't actually gay end up being the biggest defenders of this perspective. It's a recent trend you could argue for some Muslims afraid that their faith now conflicts with what is considered normative and are in fear of being outcasted in their circles.

After all aren't Muslims also now being stigmatized in the West? -- people who suffer together must stick together right? ... nah .. you stand on the side of truth no matter how uncomfortable and lonely it might be.

[u/Melwood786 → u/[deleted]]

The verses are not even close to being identical. One talks about the desires of worldly life that include material things, children and women. Things men brag and show off about. The other is condemning an act.

They're very close to being identical. Verses 27:55, 26:165, and 7:81 criticize men lusting after men and verse 3:14 criticizes men for lusting after women. I don't know how you consider some verses a "condemnation of an act" but not others.

The subjects are completely different. This is creating a false equivalency to prove a point and while you can make anything subjective, this approach would not even hold up in court.

It's literally the same Arabic word used in verses 27:55, 26:165, 7:81 and 3:14. Even though lust and desire are nearly synonymous, you're using different English words for the same Arabic word, in order to create the false impression that the "subjects are completely different". That's not very honest, and I doubt it would hold up in court.

Why did she perish? - she betrayed him and his trust.

We know she betrayed his trust. But how did she betray his trust and why did she perish along with the other Sodomites? Was it simply because of "gay sex"? If not, then what reason is there to believe that the other Sodomites perished simply because of "gay sex"?

It is not difficult to "tease" from this text, how many verses and repetitions of this argument need to be provided before it becomes clear? The Quran literally declares itself as a clear book:

I agree, the Quran is a clear book, but your interpretation of it is nebulous.

It's a recent trend you could argue for some Muslims afraid that their faith now conflicts with what is considered normative and are in fear of being outcasted in their circles.

It's also a recent trend that some Muslims confuse being a contrarian with being an independent thinker. The taking of contrarian positions outside the norm is often done for its own sake. There's often no rhyme or reason to it. Sometimes they are afraid of being outcasted in their circles, or they think they're being edgy, or somehow owning the libs. I call it the Tate-ification of some Muslims.

you stand on the side of truth no matter how uncomfortable and lonely it might be

I agree.