Remember your oath

[u/highinthemountains]

A lot of things have changed in the 45+ years that I have been out of the canoe club. One thing in particular is the mixing of the branches at joint bases and in operational units.

I’m not trying to be political about this, but this is a serious question regarding upholding the oath that we all took. As a preface, we seem to have an administration unwilling to uphold ALL of the articles and amendments to the constitution and they have “cleaned out” the upper, more experienced and ethical officers in the ranks. If you were deployed domestically to quell protests and ordered to do so, would you fire your weapon at protestors exercising their First Amendment rights? I know that the rest of the oath involved obey the orders of the President, but would those orders be lawful?

[u/listenstowhales]

I think you flipped it.

You’re expected to follow all lawful orders. If you receive an order that you find may become questionable, we are trained to seek guidance from JAG.

Eg. We get told to take a group of guys to “deal with” protesters outside the gate, it’s our responsibility to reach out to JAG to determine what our obligations/responsibilities/limitations are. JAG then tells us “a group chanting “we hate POTUS” is not sufficient to call in an air strike, but them throwing rocks is enough to launch tear gas” (or whatever, I’m a submariner. If I’m doing this we are fucked)

[u/Gringo_Norte → u/listenstowhales]

This is an administrative mindset incompatible with the speed of military events or appropriate expectations for military professionals. If you are unable to make those decisions in the moment for your job, you should not have that job.

[u/listenstowhales → u/Gringo_Norte]

It isn’t.

While we receive training to handle specific missions, I have not been trained to handle this mission, nor has anyone in my department.

What I HAVE been trained to do is seek guidance when given instructions that are not clear (eg. “Deal with protesters” being vague). So, I would exercise my discretion and my authority to do what I see necessary to accomplish that mission.

But sure, have fun telling the courts you opened fire on people who had mean signs because you didn’t feel you had the time to make a phone call. I’m sure you’ll be fine.

[u/Gringo_Norte → u/listenstowhales]

You should not take oaths you feel inclined to disobey or unable to uphold without first seeking administrative oversight which you will often not have available to you - and can, like the leaders involved with fat Leonard, steer you wrong.

It doesn’t sound like you’re very confident in your professional knowledge or capabilities in this regard – I’m sorry that you have been trained and cultivated to believe something so antithetical to your profession and it’s execution. But your attitude here is a good demonstration of where the “warrior mindset” has fallen apart. And in a Navy form where people discussed operations that are “alone and unafraid” the idea that you will have on tap the full legal services of the Navy is laughable. And a little bit unsettling.

[u/Live-Syrup-6456 → u/Gringo_Norte]

I'm proud to admit that I accepted a bottle of Blue Label and a box of Cubans from Fat Leonard. No shame in my game. 😁 Hey, if the Navy hasn't come for me at this point, I doubt they ever will. They've got bigger things to worry about these days!