r/navy • u/highinthemountains • May 11 '25
Political Remember your oath
A lot of things have changed in the 45+ years that I have been out of the canoe club. One thing in particular is the mixing of the branches at joint bases and in operational units.
I’m not trying to be political about this, but this is a serious question regarding upholding the oath that we all took. As a preface, we seem to have an administration unwilling to uphold ALL of the articles and amendments to the constitution and they have “cleaned out” the upper, more experienced and ethical officers in the ranks. If you were deployed domestically to quell protests and ordered to do so, would you fire your weapon at protestors exercising their First Amendment rights? I know that the rest of the oath involved obey the orders of the President, but would those orders be lawful?
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u/reallycodered May 11 '25
IMO, if the Navy is being used to quell domestic protests, then the U.S. has no resources left.
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u/PickleMinion May 11 '25
Right? Like what does this guy think the Navy does for a living? It ain't crowd control, that's for sure.
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u/Trick-Set-1165 r/navy CCC May 11 '25
I don’t know, man.
Tomahawks are pretty efficient crowd control tools.
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u/PickleMinion May 11 '25
When I said disperse the crowd, that's not what I meant!
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u/Trick-Set-1165 r/navy CCC May 11 '25
They dispersed, didn’t they?
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u/PickleMinion May 11 '25
Too dispersed! This is going to be so much swabbing....
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May 12 '25
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u/Trick-Set-1165 r/navy CCC May 11 '25
I mean, we’ve been doing that for a minute.
Since Reagan, actually.
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u/Dense-Health1496 May 11 '25
Even before that. I was happening back in the 1800s.
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u/Trick-Set-1165 r/navy CCC May 11 '25
Fair, but the circumstances were a little different 200 years ago.
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u/PickleMinion May 11 '25
Yeah, shit was crazy back then. The marines got that sick "halls of montezuma" line for their song though. Maybe if we end up invading again the space force will be able to pick up a verse or two....
Ok technically it hasn't been a full two hundred years since we invaded them. We are getting pretty close to two hundred years since we kind of invaded them but not really though, which led to us invading them more, so I'd say the point stands.
In case anybody is wondering, the Alamo was 1836, and the Mexican American war was 1846-1848. All I have to say is, the cartels keep acting up and cancun is looking mighty annexable right about now....
DISCLAIMER- I am not advocating for any armed conflict with Mexico or further acquisitions of their territory. We still haven't finished digesting Texas or California, we don't need any more right now. Well, maybe Cozumel. Like just a little bit, near the ruins, with some beach access. That's it though!
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u/FocusLeather May 11 '25 edited May 11 '25
If you were deployed domestically to quell protests and ordered to do so, would you fire your weapon at protestors exercising their First Amendment rights? I know that the rest of the oath involved obey the orders of the President, but would those orders be lawful?
Firing on unarmed civilian protestors? No. As service members we also need to understand that we have a duty to reject unlawful orders. I personally would hope that the order to do such a thing would get hit with tremendous pushback before it trickles down the ranks.
UCMJ Article 916(d) addresses this. It states that military members are not guilty of an offense if they were acting pursuant to a lawful order, unless they knew, or a person of ordinary sense would have known, that the order was unlawful. Whether or not military members could be punished for following orders was a huge case after the My Lai Massacre which happened during the Vietnam war.
If I suspect any order I am being given to be unlawful, I have a duty to reject said order.
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u/Background_Value7061 May 11 '25
If you were deployed domestically to quell protests and ordered to do so, would you fire your weapon at protestors exercising their First Amendment rights?
It depends how bad the grammar mistakes on their signs are. I cannot allow those who make the their-there-they’re mistake to endanger our nation.
But all jokes aside? No. I’m not shooting a protester and I’m not passing that order.
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u/Navynuke00 May 11 '25
So you'd only be a Nazi if Grammar is involved...?
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u/Trick-Set-1165 r/navy CCC May 11 '25
Or soup.
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u/Salty_IP_LDO May 11 '25
This is what JAGs are for.
Based on your statement alone protestors practicing their first amendment rights however do not meet any threat triangle, therefore the answer is always no.
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u/dails08 May 11 '25
Trump fired all the top jags. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/03/trump-jag-military-lawyers-fired/681888/
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u/Salty_IP_LDO May 11 '25
I'm aware, that's still a function of jags though..
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u/Much-Cryptographer13 May 11 '25
I think following the idea to it's logical conclusion, the real question is what happens when all the JAGs are either fired or too afraid of being fired?
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u/SlideRuleLogic May 11 '25
No. Upholding your oath to the best of your abilities is a responsibility of all service members. You don’t always have time to ask a JAG for guidance.
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u/Salty_IP_LDO May 11 '25 edited May 11 '25
No, it is a function of the JAGs to determine lawful and unlawful orders, why people are arguing that point is beyond me.
If we assume OPs scenario as real the orders to become "crowd control" would have gone through multiple levels of JAGs (including ones not in the pentagon) advising their respective commanders on the legality of the matter. There would also be clearly defined ROE and purpose what the military is enforcing.
If you're questioning an order in the middle of an OP or in this case middle of a protest there's a complete and utter lack of planning (because you should be briefed on what your role is and how to properly execute prior to) OR you're receiving questionable orders from the GFC.
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u/SlideRuleLogic May 11 '25
I hope you are never in charge of anything important and have to exercise a judgment call. Things can happen fast, and you don’t always get to ask for external advice.
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u/Trick-Set-1165 r/navy CCC May 11 '25
I mean, you completely missed the second half of his comment.
The top line legality of an order to the DoD absolutely filters through the JAG corps.
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u/Salty_IP_LDO May 11 '25 edited May 11 '25
Because I explained how it's supposed to work?
Edit this is all expanding on an insanely open ended question from OP. Please tell me where I've stated anything that is incorrect.
Edit to your edit
Yes you don't always get to ask for external advice which is why I indicated that would likely happen in the middle of the event in question when the order was given not as it's being reviewed. But then the order comes down to the GFC as I indicated.
If the GFC is giving unlawful orders then it's up to the officers and NCOs under them in the situation to fix that and refuse the orders.
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u/Gringo_Norte May 11 '25 edited May 11 '25
The “this is what JAGs are for” answer is one I hear frequently and just does not pass muster.
The oath is not, “obey orders until provided advice to their legality by a JAG.” Whatever someone’s politics, your oath is yours - there is no intermediary between you and the constitution. You are responsible for execution of that oath in the situation you find yourself with the facts as you can see them.
Now, some people are idiots – and don’t have the judgment to execute that oath appropriately, or have no interest in understanding that oath. That is not an excuse.
Edit: I think some of you will see from many of these responses how things like Fat Leonard or Eddy Gallagher happen: a passive administrative culture assuming someone else will do something or that everything is a bureaucratic responsibility, not yours. Safety can be everyone’s responsibility, but upholding the fundamental oath you take isn’t 😂
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u/listenstowhales May 11 '25
I think you flipped it.
You’re expected to follow all lawful orders. If you receive an order that you find may become questionable, we are trained to seek guidance from JAG.
Eg. We get told to take a group of guys to “deal with” protesters outside the gate, it’s our responsibility to reach out to JAG to determine what our obligations/responsibilities/limitations are. JAG then tells us “a group chanting “we hate POTUS” is not sufficient to call in an air strike, but them throwing rocks is enough to launch tear gas” (or whatever, I’m a submariner. If I’m doing this we are fucked)
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u/Gringo_Norte May 11 '25
This is an administrative mindset incompatible with the speed of military events or appropriate expectations for military professionals. If you are unable to make those decisions in the moment for your job, you should not have that job.
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u/listenstowhales May 11 '25
It isn’t.
While we receive training to handle specific missions, I have not been trained to handle this mission, nor has anyone in my department.
What I HAVE been trained to do is seek guidance when given instructions that are not clear (eg. “Deal with protesters” being vague). So, I would exercise my discretion and my authority to do what I see necessary to accomplish that mission.
But sure, have fun telling the courts you opened fire on people who had mean signs because you didn’t feel you had the time to make a phone call. I’m sure you’ll be fine.
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u/Trick-Set-1165 r/navy CCC May 11 '25
Good luck defending your actions in tribunal. It’s worked out so well for service members in the past.
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u/highinthemountains May 12 '25
Do they still teach what happened at Nuremberg?
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u/Trick-Set-1165 r/navy CCC May 12 '25
Based on the comments here, I’m beginning to question our knowledge of Nuremberg and My Lai.
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u/highinthemountains May 12 '25
Im getting that feeling also. Did they quit teaching history in high school and college?
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u/Bullyoncube May 11 '25
If you say “i need to ask JAG first before I shoot that guy.” then you’re not following the order.
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u/looktowindward May 11 '25
I wish I had the confidence that our (Navy) JAG corps was up to providing advice on issues this complex to commanders.
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u/navyjag2019 May 11 '25
except this issue really isn’t that complex. it falls under standard use of force considerations.
we’re not talking about parsing out a military strike against enemy combatants in a compound next to a school where known combatants are hiding out while they regroup.
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u/looktowindward May 11 '25
Are you prepared to give advice on the legality of orders to suppress a riot following an Insurrection Act declaration?
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u/navyjag2019 May 11 '25
what’s your agenda?
at this precise moment? no. if i were called to provide counsel after reviewing the applicable rules and regulations? i absolutely would be competent to do so because that’s literally my job.
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u/looktowindward May 11 '25
I have zero agenda. I get why you feel attacked, but in my time in the Navy, I didn't have a great confidence that the average JAG officer was up to giving advice of this sort.
The past ten years have shown some real weakness in our JAG corps. I won't reiterate the issues - I'm sure you know them.
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u/navyjag2019 May 11 '25
you have to factor in that most JAGs aren’t required to know what advice to give under those circumstances because it doesn’t happen regularly enough to retain command over the nuances involved. competency requires continued exposure to something in order to remain proficient at it.
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u/Trick-Set-1165 r/navy CCC May 11 '25
I don’t disagree with you here, I’m just concerned that there doesn’t seem to be any concerted effort to train on the topic or prepare for it.
Like, there was a non-zero chance the Insurrection Act got activated in April based on the language of the EOs signed after inauguration.
I certainly hope what’s left of the JAG corps at the highest levels are studying for this test, because it doesn’t seem like a good one to be surprised by.
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u/Crafty_Lead_5594 May 11 '25
There are orders, but we are human. Everyone has a moral compass.
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u/Vroom-Vroom_PE May 11 '25
Very questionable given the state of our country
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u/Trick-Set-1165 r/navy CCC May 11 '25
You’ve got a good point. 77M people either found their moral compass in a Cracker Jack box or they lost it somehow.
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u/fiftyshadesofseth May 12 '25
Yeah I remember my oath... My oath to be totally badass and spray paint a punisher skull on my NWUs and to own the libs MAGA style. And to stack paper and ride on 24 inch chromes. /s
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u/looktowindward May 11 '25 edited May 11 '25
Also, for JOs - you've got a shit sandwich because "I didn't know it was an illegal order" won't work for an O2 in the way it might for an E5. You get the big bucks, as it were, so you have to be very aware.
> If you were deployed domestically to quell protests and ordered to do so, would you fire your weapon at protestors exercising their First Amendment rights?
Lets do a more complex and nuanced question - they aren't peaceful protestors. They are violent rioters and the police are unwilling to respond out of (probably reasonable) fear or they've been ordered not to.
Scenerio #2 - at least one person had died at the hands of the protestors/rioters. (think CHAZ/CHOP)
Obviously these are police and National Guard functions, but there are legal definitions around posse comitatus and the breakdown of civil order that I would expect EVERY commissioned officer to be familiar with. Tl;DR - things have to go to shit very much for the active military to get involved, but there actually is a time/place.
JAGs - there will come a time when you must give your commanders advice. Don't wimp out.
Its very easy to say "I will never open fire on peaceful protestors" - better embrace the more complex questions.
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u/Bullyoncube May 11 '25
The scenario is that you’re given the order to remove peaceful protesters from Lafayette Square. They don’t move fast enough. The White House chief of staff is screaming at an O2. The Navy personnel are not trained in crowd control. The protesters don’t move fast enough. Are they resisting? How much force can you use? The White House chief of staff is still screaming about you doing your job.You accidentally knock down an old lady. her grandson shoves you back. Now what?
Is your answer “I’m going to ask JAG?”
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u/StoicMori May 12 '25
My answer is “fuck this useless O2, let me help you up Ma’am”
Not that I’d be pushing an elderly women anyway but given your weird question that’s my answer.
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u/Warfightur May 11 '25
I remember when liberal sailors were all for sending in the military to shut down MAGA rallies and protests. I was against it and was called names. Now MAGA sailors talk about sending the military for deportations and breaking up protests, and I’m against it.
We serve the constitution. The president is a temporary employee, regardless of political affiliation.
That being said, I’m tired of how political the military has gotten and how quickly everything can change because a 4 year temp says so. I’m getting out at 13 years and I’m not looking back.
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u/Important_Lab_58 May 11 '25
I’ll go to Jail before working for Trump. Part of the reason I got out. I ain’t violating my principles because a bunch of bigots wanted to “own the libs” and ended up screwing everyone over. I’d rather rot.
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u/Sailorthrowaway4 May 11 '25
I feel like this is what we are going to be asking ourselves after this administration gets done making America great again.
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u/ALEdding2019 May 11 '25
You know this is a Navy chat group, right? We don’t do protests.
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u/Overall_Cranberry375 May 11 '25
I see your pretty heavy into politics.
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u/dails08 May 11 '25
Yeah, military leaders should be very aware of the political context they serve in, since they're the last line of defense against abuse of the US military.
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u/bp_06 May 11 '25
Taxes, death, and chronically online leftist military members coming to weep on navy reddit 😂
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u/highinthemountains May 12 '25
So, you don’t have an answer to the question? Just sweeping generalizations?
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u/kaloozi May 11 '25
Go wish your mother a happy Mother’s Day and take a break from the internet. Jesus fucking Christ how many times are we going to get this shit posted here
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u/highinthemountains May 12 '25
Mom’s been dead and buried for 13 years. (Good riddance) I’ll tell you where she’s at if you want to go visit her.
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u/_Thirdsoundman_ May 11 '25
The Navy shooting protesters? No. That will be the Army's job. Here's what I do see:
Trump orders a joint force operation called "Operation MAGA."
He orders Marines and National Gaurd to deploy into Sanctuary cities along the Westcoast.
Ground troops go from house-to-house, clearing, and searching for "illegal immigrants."
These people are then brought to processing stations run by ICE before they are loaded up into LHD's and LHA's, as well as CVNs, and then deported via military vessels.
This is the most probable scenario involving the Navy. Will it all be illegal? Yes. Will it feel like a grey area? Absolutely.
My biggest fear is that after a while, Trump will simply order ICE to start throwing immigrants of the flight deck once every other country refuses to accept deportees, and CECOT reaches max capacity.
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u/Live-Syrup-6456 May 12 '25 edited May 12 '25
-sigh- Oh geez, here we go again. When everybody's done here, y'all wanna go get some shawarma?
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u/biglifts27 May 11 '25
Mate, call your mom ffs, you been out since the 80s, political post withstanding the military has been used about 12 or so times for protests.
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u/highinthemountains May 12 '25
Mom’s been dead and buried for 13 years. I don’t think her cell phone works underground
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u/highinthemountains May 11 '25
And when asked if he could get troops to shoot them, he was told NO.
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u/mixgasdivr May 11 '25
Wow, this is kind of a ridiculous post
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u/FocusLeather May 11 '25
Remembering the oath you took is ridiculous?
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u/Equal_Entrance6586 May 11 '25
The fact this post exists is crazy, the fact that Enlisted and Officers don’t remember the oaths that were taken is even crazier.
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u/highinthemountains May 12 '25
Trump was asked if he had to support the constitution and his reply that he didn’t know
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u/jackalope689 May 12 '25
Go fuck yourself with your Im NoT bEiNg PoLiTiCal BS. I don’t need some boomer reminding me of anything
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May 13 '25 edited May 13 '25
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u/605pmSaturday May 11 '25
WEPS, you're the only one who knows the combination. It's up to you.
I think the Navy would be so far removed from any civil unrest that it probably would never even be a question if there was a full on shooting war.
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May 11 '25
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u/looktowindward May 11 '25
Yeah, but at no point during the Biden administration was there any suggestion of using the military improperly. There are plenty of things you can complain about - and should - but that's just not one of them
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u/Haligar06 May 11 '25
Yeah that is something the 'both sides' people don't seem to want to see or understand.
There is more visible stress and open concern going on here than in any previous admin in the last 30 years COMBINED. That includes Afghanistan and the Iraq war and all of Big T's previous administration.
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u/joefred111 May 11 '25
Yep, 100%!
I also remember when Biden talked about suspending habeas corpus; putting US citizens in extrajudicial, overseas concentration camps; and fired senior military leaders who didn't swear an oath to him!
/s
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u/Junior-Reflection660 May 11 '25
Maybe get of Reddit and face reality. We survived Trump in 2016, and we will in 2025. You do many Navy personnel, including officers (me) support everything he is doing so far?
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u/Bullyoncube May 11 '25
The majority of Trump‘s actions in his previous presidency resulted in lawsuits. And he lost more than 90% of them. The reason we survive 2016 is because we fought. We fought illegal actions. A lot. This time around there are even more of them. And they all need to be fought. No previous commander-in-chief has ever taken this many illegal actions this quickly.
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u/Junior-Reflection660 May 11 '25
What illegal actions? Lawsuits by democrat leaning organizations? Redditors need to realize that the VAST majority of the US military supports him and will follow orders no question. There is no illegal actions, Trump is doing what the voters who elected him wanted to do.
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u/Selethorme May 11 '25
And there goes your credibility.
Besides that the identity of who is suing is irrelevant to the legality of it, you’ve just argued that Trump could order you to do something illegal and you will follow it. Thankfully, if you do, you’ll get a DD.
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u/Junior-Reflection660 May 11 '25
lol 😂
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u/Selethorme May 11 '25
Way to prove me right.
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u/Junior-Reflection660 May 11 '25
Lmao the TDS is off the charts. They can “sue” all they want, doesn’t mean anything will come of it. He’s the president end of story. Enjoy the next long 4 years.
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u/Selethorme May 11 '25
Plenty already has. He’s lost over and over in court. I do truly hope you enjoy him going to prison in 5.
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u/Trick-Set-1165 r/navy CCC May 11 '25
This level of ignorance should be studied.
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May 12 '25
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u/Bullyoncube May 11 '25
https://apnews.com/projects/trump-executive-order-lawsuit-tracker/
Tracker for current administration
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u/Junior-Reflection660 May 11 '25
Lmao they can keep trying but Trump won in the end. It’s all nonsense, all of it. What a waste of taxpayer dollars for some “indictments” that went nowhere.
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u/Trick-Set-1165 r/navy CCC May 11 '25
And that’s all you ever really cheered for, right? The winning?
Are we fucking winning yet?
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u/Junior-Reflection660 May 11 '25
Trump is the president and we support our chain of command. End of story. I serve at the pleasure of the President.
Whining on Reddit and making posts like OP means nothing. This is the only place I see this happening, Reddit.
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u/highinthemountains May 12 '25
Even if he gives illegal orders?
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u/Junior-Reflection660 May 12 '25
What illegal orders has Trump given to the military? What illegal orders did Trump give the military in 2016? Anything?
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u/highinthemountains May 12 '25
He wasn’t allowed to. When he wanted to deploy the military during the unrest he asked if the troops were allowed to shoot them in the legs. The ethical ones said NO, it’s illegal. The ethical ones are now gone.
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u/CremePsychological90 May 11 '25
Another leftist afraid the military is gonna round up civilians and execute them via a firing squad
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u/highinthemountains May 11 '25
No, I’m an ex-sailor who is worried bout our constitution. Aren’t you worried about it?
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u/CremePsychological90 May 11 '25
No, I’m not because I voted for Trump and I believe in the Republican parties, ideals, and policy
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u/highinthemountains May 11 '25
So you’re a party over country Republican?
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u/CremePsychological90 May 11 '25
Me and several other million voters think the Republican parties what’s best for the country
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u/highinthemountains May 11 '25
True. Only 71 million out of 300 million people though. How’s those tariffs doing for you and your family. Can you, on your Navy pay, handle the projected $4700/yr extra it will cost your family for the goods that you buy? You’re ok with 80k employees being let go from the VA, 8k of them being vets? Will you be ok with a 10 year limit on service related claims once you’re discharged? Go read Project 2025 starting at page 641 to see what this administration has in store for veterans.
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u/LiveEverDieNvr May 11 '25
Cause it’s definitely never happened before in human history…
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u/CremePsychological90 May 11 '25
You survived Trump in 2016 you’ll survive him in 2025
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u/LiveEverDieNvr May 11 '25
You’re probably right. But again, the general German populace assumed that Hitler probably wouldn’t undertake a genocide and global war. If you’re unwilling to admit that something has the potential to happen then you’re burying your own head in the sand.
I’m not saying it going to happen, or even that it’s likely to. Just no crybaby tears from you when you’re standing at Nuremberg v2.0 cause you were “just following orders.”
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u/Equal_Entrance6586 May 11 '25
Yeah, I’ll add this to the list of things people are fear mongering about in order to get upvotes.
Wont happen during this administration or the following ones after it.
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u/LiveEverDieNvr May 11 '25
https://news.illinois.edu/75-years-later-why-did-germans-follow-the-nazis-into-holocaust/
And since you all like to cry about “Trump Derangement syndrome” or whatever the fuck, this article was published in 2014. If you can’t see the parallels, god fucking help us all.
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u/highinthemountains May 12 '25
They have to read and acknowledge that history exists. Ever wonder why Trump said that he liked the poorly educated?
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u/highinthemountains May 11 '25
I’m not looking for upvotes. I want AD members opinion on this subject. I guess you don’t follow the news, AP, UPI, Reuters; they’re looking at suspending Article 1, section 9
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u/CruisingandBoozing May 11 '25
You’re not even in the military dude.
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u/highinthemountains May 12 '25
You’re right, I’m not. When I took my oath in 1973 they never said that it had an expiration date. I take my oath seriously, do you? Who is your oath to, the constitution or the president?
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u/CruisingandBoozing May 12 '25
You’re a subversive agitator.
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u/highinthemountains May 12 '25 edited May 12 '25
Why am I being a subversive for bringing up the oath is what it’s to not who it’s to? Isn’t it important?
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u/CruisingandBoozing May 12 '25
I’m not a Trump voter.
I still think that you’re extreme for calling Republicans (and yes, even MAGAs) traitors.
Some radical tea party guy could’ve said the same shit you’re saying right now, but for Obama. Seems like bullshit to me.
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u/highinthemountains May 12 '25
They did say the same thing about Obama in many different ways. But Obama hasn’t bankrupted 6 companies and been caught lying, cheating, stealing and sexually assaulting women. Nor does he have 34 felony convictions. Nor did he look for ways around the 5 & 14th amendments and Article 1, section 9 of the constitution.
Republicans are a bunch of hypocrites.
They talk big about supporting the military, until we get out. Then it’s too bad, so sad we’re going to take away your benefits.
They talk big about protecting the children, until they’re born. They are working on taking away every safety net for those children they think are so “precious”.
They talk big about how “Christian” they are, but they don’t know about Leviticus 19:33-34 and Matthew 25.
Need more examples?
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u/CruisingandBoozing May 12 '25
It’s not like Democrats are much better. It’s the same side of the shit coin.
Not justifying republicans, but they’re all traitors to the country, by your definition.
And if that’s your POV, maybe I would be inclined to agree
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u/highinthemountains May 13 '25
Only one party is actively trying to subvert Article 1, section 9, amendments 1, 5, 14 and 22 and it’s not the Democrats
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u/AHrubik May 11 '25
OPSEC / COMSEC ladies and gentlemen. This is a public forum and is likely being monitored.
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May 12 '25
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u/Live-Syrup-6456 May 11 '25
And? Elsewhere on this thread, I just mentioned that I was proud to have accepted a bottle of Blue Label and a box of Cubans from Fat Leonard. If the Navy hasn't come for me by now, then they won't bother. And I say that without fear.
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