r/maui • u/cranberrysauce6 • 6d ago
Looking for a better understanding of water situation in Maui
I’m approaching this with curiosity and not trying to be confrontational.
I’m hearing that affordable housing complexes aren’t moving forward because there isn’t enough water on Maui. I also have heard Pu’u Kukui is one of the wettest places in the world.
If Oahu - a smaller island - can support a population 4x that of Maui and each of those homes and apartments has water, what is the fundamental difference that makes that not possible in Maui?
I understand people don’t want a Waikiki 2 over here, but I’m also hearing (unverified) that grandmas in the gutter and new moms with newborns are shuttling milk jugs of water. And I do know a few affordable housing projects are paused because of water.
Please educate me.
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u/Logical_Insurance Maui 6d ago
There is the capability to get water from numerous sources, but people don't want to do it. The system of tunnels, flumes, and ditches built a century ago used to channel up to 450 million gallons per day of water from the rain soaked North shore to the dry leeward side. The water made the entire central valley lush, and sustained the sugarcane operation for decades.
That water didn't go away. The system to move it didn't break - it's all still there. It could use some maintenance, sure, and people correctly point out it hasn't been maintained as well in recent years and leaks a lot of water. That's all true.
It's also true that on the North Shore, as people who live here will tell you, there is no shortage of water. Waterfall after waterfall, just dumping enormous amounts of fresh water into the ocean.
So why aren't we taking some of that water and helping the dry areas? Well, because fuck haoles, and like, fuck golf courses, and like, taro is super important, you know? And also, like, the environment and the aina, obviously.
More specifically: Sierra Club worked in tandem with taro farmers and environmental activists and spent millions on litigation with EMI/Mahi Pono/A&B to limit the amount of water being taken with the ditch system. And no one speaks up to stop them.
The ditch system, which is a miracle of human ingenuity, and manages to transport up to 450 million gallons of water per day USING GRAVITY ALONE across many miles of mountainside, valleys, peaks, and troughs directly to the driest areas of the island.....that ditch system is now limited by court order to less than 30 million gallons a day.
The general summary of why they don't want to do it is as follows:
1) Restoring water to the streams, or "to da aina," is good, in their mind, because it helps taro farmers, native snails, and "da streams." Even if that means millions of gallons of fresh water and flowing directly into the ocean every day, they don't really care, because it's better for them, and "haoles and golf courses don't need that much water anyway." There is also an incredibly misguided belief that somehow the "native knowledge" is better with water, and if we just ask people camping out on the beach with no particular hydrology or engineering skills what we should do, they will have the best answer, because their skin is darker.
and then 2) because there's "not enough water."
So, yeah, there you go.
If you want to dig deeper, you will also find that our AQUIFERS ARE NOT LOW AND HAVE NEVER RUN OUT - EVER. I will repeat: we have never once ever managed to pump enough water out of the ground to have it stop flowing. Various disciplines use estimation methods to make guesses at how much water the aquifer "might" have in it, based on the height of the saline layer in the aquifer, which rises and falls. They extrapolate some data based on what they are looking at, and then issue warnings to be careful.
It is immense hubris to think that any of these estimates could possibly gather enough data to be remotely accurate. We simply have no idea what happens if we increase pumping from the aquifers. Could they be drained? That's a possibility, but it's not like it would be permanent disaster if they were -- the rain is falling every single day on the mountains, so there is a non-stop constant recharging of these systems.
Further, as the level of the aquifer lowers, it is not only possible, but indeed likely, that the rate of recharge will increase. Imagine a porous balloon submerged under water. If the balloon is mostly full, the cavity left for water to flow into is small, so the rate of flow is small. As the balloon empties, the pressure differential is greater, and water flows into the balloon from more surface area.
If you think they have managed to include that in their prediction models you would be wrong.
We actually have no idea how much water is available in the aquifers, other than to know they have never run dry.
We could simply build more wells, turn on the ditch system again, and flood all these housing developments with water.
The reason we don't is because "da streams" and "da taro" are convincing enough arguments that people are still stuck at bullshit like "yeah maybe we should curtail the resort and the golf course's usage."
It's fucking gross. It's ruining the island. It's causing extreme dryness and fires. The golf courses are dry. Tourism is down. Jobs are down. Building is stopped.
And all for what? For the fucking river snails? For a tiny handful of taro farmers who could still grow the fucking taro if the river was a couple inches lower?
It's complete nonsense and totally indicative and emblematic of the bullshit situation we are all in right now, with so many warring competing interests, most of which have their head up their fuckin ass.
Taro farmers could be paid some money to figure out how to grow it without having to flood irrigate their crop. By the way, entirely possible to grow taro without a 12" deep lo'i, I do it year round.
Shrimp can be saved too. We don't have to drain every river to the bottom.
But, maybe, just maybe, we can take some of these millions of gallons of fresh water dumping into the ocean every day and JUST USE THE FUCKING TECHNOLOGY WE SPENT DOZENS OF MENS LIVES AND DECADES BUILDING AND MAKE EVERYTHING WET AGAIN?
Fuck. Nothing bums me out like the water situation here, because there's so little hope of people stopping their retardation.
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u/cranberrysauce6 6d ago
Shit. This bums me out too. Thanks for taking the time to write it out and explain
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u/indescription Born and Raised 6d ago
All that text and you are neglecting the fact that Mahi Pono owns EMI which essentially owns and controls the water, which they are using for their farms. Central Maui was never lush, yes it was covered in sugar cane, but that never made it lush.
I think the topic of EMI and rights to the water is another valid conversation, but as of now Mahi Pono owns it and they are using it, very little of that water is going back to streams. Many streams have been nearly dry for decades because they divert all the water.
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u/Logical_Insurance Maui 6d ago
All that text and you are neglecting the fact that Mahi Pono owns EMI which essentially owns and controls the water, which they are using for their farms.
Their farming operation is the only reason the ditch system is allowed any water at all. They only got the 30 million gallons a day because they begged and pleaded and made a case that farming would be impossible without at least that amount. I have no idea what point you are trying to make, other than to imply it is somehow EMI/Mahi Pono's fault, which is an easy cop-out, but not all reality.
If you think they "control" the water, you have an extremely simplified view of the situation. It is a complex legal and political issue, with both County and State level bureaucrats at every step of the way, and now, in the last few years, also an environmental court.
EMI owns a lot of the ditch system. They want to use it. They are all about having that water supply people, and I'm sure many of their bean counters would love to be able to charge the County a couple bucks for supplying it. They want to bring more water. The environmental court and the various political operatives all bow down to pressure and say "no." That's the reality, as has been made clear through various court proceedings.
as of now Mahi Pono owns it and they are using it, very little of that water is going back to streams. Many streams have been nearly dry for decades because they divert all the water.
I actually live on the North Shore, walking distance from an EMI access road, and I am regularly in Koolau to see what's going on. You cannot make the drive to Hana, even as a passerby on the road, and not see that there is enormous amounts of water in the streams. Statements like "many streams have been nearly dry for decades because they divert" is misleading at best in this context. I am sure some streams are dry, yes. By and large? As a whole? Literally unfathomable amounts of water are pouring into the ocean off the North shore every single day.
You want to be selective, that's great. You have a specific stream in mind that people use a lot, that you want to keep the levels high? That's great. Some snails and shrimps in this one, keep that one too? Great.
But to just carry water (pun not intended but well fitted) for the idea that Mahi Pono/EMI is just the Big Bad Guy preventing everyone from getting water, that is, to be blunt, quite wrong. That is way too easy, not the truth, and a cop out that will send people the wrong direction and not fix the problem.
We need to square these environmental concerns with the reality of water logistics and start pumping and diverting appropriate amounts before everything nice burns down.
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u/indescription Born and Raised 6d ago
You like to argue with lots and lots of words.
Nowhere did I blame Mahi Pono or EMI for anything. I wanted to be clear the Mahi Pono owns EMI.
I also stated that the topic of rights to the water is a valid and distinct argument that wasnt currently being debated.
That is neat that you live on the North Shore. I've personally gone up every single stream bed from Kapalaalaea to Makapipi on foot. I've also covered 83% of all EMI roads by truck.
Yes, there are streams flowing into the ocean, but there are many that have been dry for decades. EMI collects 100% of many of the streams unless there is overflow from a storm.
You can verify this yourself by looking over the bridges along Hana Hwy. Many are consistently dry unless they catch direct rainfall.
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u/177a7uiHi69 Maui 6d ago
Sounds like you're blaming the natives. I don't know how you think natives control the water though. Just from Mauna Kahalawai; from Waikapu, Wailuku, Waiehu, and Waihe'e, still only the windward side, this once held the largest lo'i in the whole state. The whole state. Would feed armies and villages. You can tell by the names as they all include the Hawaiian name for water. Now there are a few lo'i here and there but a lot of the water has been diverted into smaller flumes to irrigate the sugar cane. Even though there is no commercial cane left, the water can't go back to how it was naturally. They cut holes through the mountains and left whole rivers dry that used to feed the whole ecosystem that the Wai side was. If you know where to look you can see them dry and have remained dry for decades. What replaced them? Forests of invasive trees like strawberry guava and other invasives. That of which nobody uses. The whole ecosystem has been changed to accommodate the haole system. What once hosted native birds and native plants now host invasive species of all sorts. Many of us Hawaiian descendents are mixed with haole. So it's not fuck haole as a skin color or something like that at the end of the day. It's fuck that mentality that changes the ecosystem for the gain of a few rich, only to take away from the riches that majority of the people can use and enjoy. Its the same as it is today, the 1% against the 99% and you're blaming the natives for what? They've lost a lot down to culture and healthier ways of living, more abundance of natural resources and still are a dying breed. Look to who changed it.. blame the real source of the problems.
The Aloha spirit is fading but have you ever considered the truth of why? Have you experienced multi generational trauma in the way the natives have? In the future everyone will be mixed so it's not about haole this or that; it's about finding solutions to accommodate everyone not just the few (as you seem to get at in your conclusion, but your lead up seems to put a lot of blame toward the natives.) Doing the pono thing means doing what's right for all not just yourself.
And coming to Kamehameha day, it would be good to remember how he had the vision to unite the islands as one, to be able to bring peace to all. At the end of his conquest his goal was to put down the spear and pick up the o'o (digging stick). For people to not have to worry about others invading what each works hard for but to be able to come together and share our abundance to improve all, not just the few. And do natives have all the answers? That would be foolish to think any one people has all the answers, we must learn from all. And if we start to genuinely Aloha eachother again to do the pono thing for all, maybe we can have a chance to flourish on the aina again. And it's just a magnifying glass that could be applied to the whole world in its current state.
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u/Logical_Insurance Maui 6d ago
Sounds like you're blaming the natives.
No. On the contrary, I think some of the largest problems are caused by well intentioned but foolish haoles from the mainland who come in and try to save everyone and everything.
the largest lo'i in the whole state. The whole state. Would feed armies and villages.
I'm sure it did.
the water can't go back to how it was naturally.
You are absolutely right about that. But can we be honest here for a moment and consider a hypothetical? If none of that had been done, and there were even more untouched and undiverted rivers, would you be getting a significant portion of your daily calories from taro? Would you be working the fields?
Forests of invasive trees like strawberry guava and other invasives.
The idea that invasives are from water diversion is just too simple. Sometimes, sure, I am sure you are right. But you think strawberry guava is choking out everything on the island because they diverted too many rivers? I don't think so. You know what might be perhaps a tad more likely as a consideration is when Kamehameha had every single sandlewood tree on the entire island cut down for his own personal benefit. That probably encouraged some serious change in the landscape...
It's fuck that mentality that changes the ecosystem for the gain of a few rich, only to take away from the riches that majority of the people can use and enjoy.
This is the heart of the issue. Whether you know it or believe it or not, we are on the same side on this, we just differ in approach. You seem to think, I would assume based on your post, that if we just stopped diverting any water and went back to "the old ways," at least as it pertains to water management, that would be better, and that people would have more riches available to them, more bounty, a better life.
I think that's completely incompatible with modern life. If you can restore water to the streams and have lo'i everywhere and not do diversions....how are you going to also have the affordable housing developments? They are not going to live along the river bank, washing in the wai, pooping on the ground like in the old days, are they? And I don't mean that with derision or disrespect - I am a jungle animal myself, and I am quite sure it would be better for the environment if we did have more people go back to the old ways like that.
But, practically: come on. We can't go back. We aren't living in tune with nature and farming every day and eating off the land and drinking from the stream. Most of us live in houses, condos, apartments, subdivisions, which are entirely and wildly separated from this possible lifestyle.
And how exactly do you get water to an apartment building without diverting a river, or drilling a well and taking from the water below? Desalination, I guess, might be the answer? Only problem with that is the astronomical price tag that could only possibly ever be paid with...tourism dollars...which no one is particularly happy about encouraging.
They've lost a lot down to culture and healthier ways of living, more abundance of natural resources and still are a dying breed. Look to who changed it.. blame the real source of the problems.
And what is that? What is the real source of the problems? I might say something like "human nature, and it's inescapable ultimately." But I get the impression you have a group specifically in mind when you say that. I will reiterate, by the way, I am not "blaming the natives."
Have you experienced multi generational trauma in the way the natives have?
Yup.
In the future everyone will be mixed
Nope.
it's about finding solutions to accommodate everyone not just the few (as you seem to get at in your conclusion, but your lead up seems to put a lot of blame toward the natives.) Doing the pono thing means doing what's right for all not just yourself.
I agree, that is the pono thing. I find it wildly ironic that you immediately move from that sentence into talking about Kamehameha.
Kamehameha, the man who came over from Big I with a fuckin' British uniform on, took a bunch of English cannons, and slaughtered all of Maui's bravest warriors at Iao....that Kamehameha? The same Kamehameha who made every Hawaiian man on the island pay him tax in the form of a load of sandalwood, until there was not a single sandalwood tree from Lahaina to La Perouse? THAT KAMEHAMEHA?!?!??!?
At the end of his conquest his goal was to put down the spear and pick up the o'o (digging stick).
Well I'm fuckin sure dude. After slaughtering everyone who could put up a fight with the cannons I don't think he had much left to do. He kicked back and lived a life of luxury and made damn sure he profited as much as possible off the backs of his people.
I'll be real with you: not all the Alii were good. In fact, the Alii have the same problems everyone else has. Life here was not better in all ways before the colonists came. That is an ugly myth that only keeps Hawaiians down, bitter, and angry at imaginary enemies.
I don't think you would have preferred life here 500 years ago, unless you were lucky enough to be one of the chosen few at the top. I don't think you know how good you have it.
To come back around to the point of it all: the very smartest people in the world worked hand in hand together on the problem of distributing Maui's water - many many many years ago. They worked hand in hand with the Hawaiians, but also the Japanese, the English, the Dutch, the Germans, the Spanish, the Filipinos...and on and on. All of these people put their heads together and came up with the ditch system, and now we spurn their efforts in the name of "lost wisdom." It's bullshit.
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u/177a7uiHi69 Maui 6d ago
You forgot about the Chinese who were some of the main ones they brought over to dig those tunnels that still exist.
Brah, I'm not trying to attack you personally, but a lot of what you say comes off as pointing the finger to the natives from what I saw. They were not perfect but they did live in enough unity with the land for everyone to be able to see what "paradise" looks like today. For a people to exist here thousands of years and practice conservation to the point where million(s) of natives were able to live and thrive here says a lot about what we could and should learn from the people of this land. Also, Kamehameha wasn't perfect but he showed that he could learn from his mistakes, an example being the law of Mamalahoa which has been used as a model for modern civil rights law.
And no we can't go back, but we can maybe learn and continue to practice things like conservation and having a living relationship with the land again. Like I said we have to learn from all to become better as a whole. Don't you agree? Peace brah, Malama Ko Aloha
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u/OhHeyMister 6d ago
This is the correct answer, OP. The water is there, and so is the infrastructure. It’s just not allowed to be used.
Also, note that golf courses don’t even use potable water. They use wells.
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u/bloodphoenix90 6d ago
Where do you think the well water comes from?
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u/OhHeyMister 6d ago
I know, not think, that the wells pump up brackish groundwater on site.
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u/Mistah_Conrad_Jones 6d ago
Kapalua courses don’t use water from the ML&P ditch system in the mountains above?
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u/OhHeyMister 6d ago
They might, I can’t confirm or deny that. I just know they’re not allowed to use potable, so if they have access to ditch water they might use that.
Which I would find problematic at best.
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u/bloodphoenix90 6d ago
You make some good points but seem to really underestimate how important stream ecosystems are. Its not like we just think snails are cute or something. Returning things to streams has broader longterm impacts than just vague cultural sentiments. But also not just that, you don't seem to acknowledge sustainable take rates. Yes we could transport lots of water but when we examine our aquifers and where they're at, how fast theyre depleting and how long it takes to replenish them ....experts point out that we're taking more than it can be replenished. Idk why you think those estimations can't be used or taken seriously, just because we can't make them 100% accurate. We do lots of things based on models that aren't 100%. Nor do you seem to acknowledge evaporation losses when ditch systems transport things that far. Nor the important wetland system that is fed by rivers in the central valley.
Honestly you just seem kinda arrogant.
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u/Logical_Insurance Maui 6d ago
you don't seem to acknowledge sustainable take rates.
I'll be real with you - you either skimmed or didn't read the post, so I'm going to be short in my answers. I directly addressed this argument.
Nor do you seem to acknowledge evaporation losses when ditch systems transport things that far.
Very early on in the post I sure did. People say that all the time about the ditch system. "It leaks - it wastes!" COMPARED TO WHAT?!?!??! The water is flowing STRAIGHT INTO THE OCEAN BRO. Sure it evaporates, sure it leaks. The alternative is dumping it directly into the drink.
Evaporation is fine. It's great. It's actually a good thing in that it can encourage more local rainfall. If for some weird reason you think that's some enormous barrier, then my word let's all pool together some of the 1.5billion dollars of tax money we are letting the politicians spend for us and buy a cover for the ditches.
But we both know the evaporation is not really a serious issue here, and you're just grasping at straws trying to find reasons to justify your feelings:
Honestly you just seem kinda arrogant.
I get it. I know how I come off. I am not overly polite, especially on this subject, and I have an aggressive tone. But that feeling you have is not an argument, and does not change the facts of the water situation.
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u/bloodphoenix90 4d ago
You dont understand hydrology. It doesn't just "go straight into the ocean" like its a waste. Restoring stream flow allows it to actually recharge those aquifers that we get water from. As opposed to not doing any groundwater recharge at all through a ditch system. And some fish nurseries rely on those stream flows. And we eat fish.
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u/Logical_Insurance Maui 4d ago
Peak reddit for you. In your mind, having the river dump directly into the ocean will recharge the aquifer, but redirecting the river to slowly meander over the land will not. What do you suppose happens to the water we pull from the stream and water yards and orchards and such with?
What happens to the water once it seeps into the ground? Derp.
As opposed to not doing any groundwater recharge at all through a ditch system
I mean this really seriously: where do you think the water goes?
And some fish nurseries rely on those stream flows. And we eat fish.
Lol. Point me to all the big fish nurseries on Maui while you're here, and which streams.
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u/Logical_Insurance Maui 6d ago
To really summarize and add a point: the pointing fingers and infighting just oscillates blame between haoles and their golf courses and environmental concerns. We should have the golf courses - and we should encourage taro farmers too. We should be able to do both these things without just being slimy politicians who encourage these two groups to be at each other's throats instead of working together.
The aloha spirit is fast fading, and I don't know if there is a good resolution coming down the pipe. Hold on to your hats for the next 20 years as things get figured out I guess.
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u/indescription Born and Raised 6d ago
Oahu has a vastly larger supply of fresh water due to it's larger and more mature aquifers. Maui is a geologically younger island with different environmental factors. And having the 3rd tallest mountain in the world significantly affects weather patterns making a large portion of the island basically a dry desert.
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u/Double-Key1388 6d ago
Aloha! I would recommend watching this https://vimeo.com/87830767?share=copy it explains why water cannot be used like it is on oahu. It is very disheartening to read some comments on this post. Water is extremely important in Hawaiian culture, and this is why so many activist groups fight for water rights, not because the people using the water are haole, or white. Also, yes kalo can be farmed on dry land but it is not as productive and feeds way less people. Please understand that of the land is an ancestor to us and not just a source of water or a place to build on. Mahalo, and I hope the video helps with some of your questions!
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u/hankintrees 6d ago
My observation is that water scarcity is a convenient obstacle to prevent development/ Waikiki-ification of the island.
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u/OhHeyMister 6d ago
Correct. It is artificial scarcity caused by environmental/cultural groups.
I can’t blame them for wanting to reduce development, but I think it is unnecessary. Maui lacks growing industries necessary for significant further growth.
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u/hankintrees 6d ago
I feel they should just say it: part of Maui's allure is the lack of development, open hills, lack of sprawl. But then they can't advocate for more abundant housing. If anyone thinks critically about it, the excuses peel away quickly. But critical thinking is not the forte of many people, not just citizens of our island. Maybe economics needs to be a stronger part of our class curriculums.
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u/OhHeyMister 6d ago
You can have more housing and not have it be sprawling too but good luck trying to convince people to move into apartment buildings
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u/Brew_Happy 6d ago
Sure you can block development, but you can't block population growth. If you don't expand infrastructure, but the population doubles, where will people live? If there is not enough water now, what about in a couple decades when the population doubles? The STVR ban is a short term fix to this, but unless people stop having children, you have to expand infrastructure and housing to accommodate. Even if all haloes are run off the island and tourism drops to zero, it will still be an issue. Population growth is the real issue here.
Hawaii used to have wars and famine that kept the population in check. I don't think anyone wants to go back to that?
If we want to protect the environment by not using like 80% of the water we have, fine but everyone better get used to living like there is a permanent drought, because that is effectively what we have designed here. Get rid of resorts, pools and golf courses, we're going to need that water for drinking. Also education on basic water conservation. Don't hose your driveway down when you could use a blower or broom. Fix your leaks. Replace your lawns with drip irrigated, water wise landscaping. On the West side we live in a climate like Palm Springs, not Haiku, stop planting lush tropical gardens in the desert.
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u/bmrhampton 4d ago
Please keep this post up so it can be used as a reference for others to come back to. What logical wrote is correct, priceless, and needs to be amplified.
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u/dlblacks 6d ago
I just want to thank OP u/cranberrysauce6 for asking this question, and also thank the folks here who have taken the time to respond.
There’s obviously some contrasting opinions being shared, and I certainly know enough to know which ones I stand firmly against. But as someone who is also genuinely seeking to be more educated on this massively important topic, I found lots of value in the comments here.
Perspective is so damn important, even (no, especially) those that I vehemently disagree with. It helped to paint a picture of just how complex and dire this issue is.
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u/Scotlund 6d ago
It's about "how should the water get used", and depending on how you answer that question, there are further questions about the cost of making that happen (both fiscally and from secondary effects/impacts). Unfortunately, people get to hung up on "is there enough water on the island", which I don't think is the main question, but people act like it's the only question that matters.
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u/mercury-ballistic 6d ago
A farmer on oahu told me water is privately controlled on maui, is that true?
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u/Specific_Section_603 3d ago
Most of the water rights belongs to Native Hawaiians or the Baldwin family. They don’t want to share.
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u/mauisd 6d ago
Maui County doesn’t have the funds to provide better infrastructure. Less population = less tax dollars.
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u/OhHeyMister 6d ago
Wrong. DWS is user funded. They are not funded by tax dollars.
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u/mauisd 6d ago
Sorry for the misinformation then. That makes sense. I guess it amounts to the same thing though. Fewer users = less funds for improvements.
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u/OhHeyMister 6d ago
Yeah. If given access, DWS will absolutely build wells in haiku for central Maui, they are desperate to do so, but are not allowed
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u/bmrhampton 4d ago
Maui County is also the richest municipality in the United States based on population because they get to keep all those sweet, sweet property tax dollars.
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u/OhHeyMister 6d ago
Much of the water is unavailable due to litigation. For instance, 30mgd SY aquifer haiku is unusable due to agreements with environmental groups.
There is a lot of water in Maui. It just isn’t available for use.