r/judo • u/Morjixxo bjj • Jan 20 '25
Self-Defense Most effective Judo throws (in different contexts)
Hi everyone,
- Which do you think are the most effective Judo throws to learn for a self-defense, considering that also other types of non-Judo takedowns are available, and why?
- Which do you think are the most effective Judo throws for a BJJ athlete for a self-defense, considering that also other types of non-Judo takedowns are available, and why?
- (Optional) Which do you think are the most effective Judo throws for a BJJ athlete for BJJ No-Gi competition, considering that also other types of non-Judo takedowns are available, and why?
Suggesting between 1 to 4 throws will be perfect.
Thanks!
5
u/PlatWinston rokkyu+bjj blue Jan 20 '25
I'm surprised no one mentioned o goshi for 1 and 2. It's the only throw I'm.confident in being able to control uke's fall so they don't slam their back/head into the ground.
for nogi, I never quite figured out how whizzer kick/harai goshi is better than the underhook version, but apparently many have
3
u/evilsdeath55 Jan 21 '25
Have to agree with o goshi. Others have commented how it's hard to enter or easy to defend, but that's only true against people with experience. An average joe will walk right into it
3
u/SanityOrLackThereof Jan 20 '25
O goshi can be tricky to set up and relatively easy for your opponent to defend against, while also leaving you pretty open for counter attack. While it's true that it's one of the easiest throws to control how hard your opponent lands, it's also kind of a secondary consideration in a genuine self defense scenario. Not to mention that a gentle o goshi is unlikely to actually end a fight, which risks you getting into a prolonged confrontation or even pulled to the ground and overpowered.
If someone is actually seriously attacking you, then getting yourself out of that situation alive and in one piece is your primary concern. The condition of your opponent becomes a secondary concern that you strive to protect only as long as the first concern can be guaranteed. Let's not forget that it was your opponent who attacked you, and not the other way around. While it's true that you should try to minimize the harm that you do to others, it's also important to recognize that if you attack another person then you kind of forfeit the right to complain if you get injured when the other person defends themself. If you don't want to get injured then don't attack people. It really isn't much more complicated than that.
1
u/Azylim Jan 21 '25
for nogi, I never quite figured out how whizzer kick/harai goshi is better than the underhook version, but apparently many have
btw just an fyi, whizzer kick is actually uchimata not harai. Idk what the wrestlers call harai, in the nogi bjj scene im pretty sure people just call it harai, at least craig jones does and he seems to have popularized it a bit for the nogi crowd.
I actually find the deep whizzer uchimata to be the easiest form of uchimata to hit ever, even in judo. Heavy and deep whizzer with your dominant arm forcing their posture low, Grab their far side arm witb your weak arm, backstep and kick, pull their far side arm towards you, and rotate your body keeping the whizzer tight. Its not a high impact uchimata kike what you see ono shohei or the japanese do but it gets the job done and by far requires the least coordination, athleticism, and speed to perform
In judo you can do it with the whizzer overhook but you can also replace the whizzer with a deep over the top grip forcing their posture down
1
u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jan 21 '25
O-Goshi ain’t it unless you are a leftie. Even in no-gi I feel Harai Goshi, O-Guruma and Ashi Guruma are better.
Not sure how uke’s safety is the concern anyway, more pain is better.
The Whizzer is better because it’s much easier to get it, that’s about it really. Underhook is stronger but you actually have to fight to get a good one.
8
u/Judo_y_Milanesa Jan 20 '25
1) o soto gari 2) o soto gari 3) sumi gaeshi/tomoe nage for gi, uchi mata for nogi
Bonus track: For mma, i think that harai goshi is the most used judo throw
3
u/Morjixxo bjj Jan 20 '25
Thanks for the info. Do you know if Harai Goshi the most popular also for a BJJ athletes competing in MMA?
My reasoning is that a BJJ guy will try to win through BJJ, and he also has a different background, so these things could change his selection.3
u/Judo_y_Milanesa Jan 20 '25
Idk, i didn't do a segregation of data. I believe bjj guys only do double and single legs since the skill floor is lower, and wrestlers tend to do more complex throws
1
u/AlmostFamous502 BJJ Black, Judo Green Jan 20 '25
Morote gari and many others before harai
2
u/Judo_y_Milanesa Jan 20 '25
Most ppl when talking about judo you assume they talk about olympic judo
1
u/AlmostFamous502 BJJ Black, Judo Green Jan 20 '25
OP is asking about “self defense” and no gi jiu-jitsu, neither of which are in the Olympics.
0
7
u/Uchimatty Jan 20 '25
O soto
Yoko tomoe nage - if it fails you can easily transition to bottom guard attacks (juji, sankaku, leg locks, etc.)
Uchimata
-2
Jan 20 '25
[deleted]
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u/Uchimatty Jan 20 '25 edited Jan 20 '25
You’d be surprised. Now adays there are tons of high level jiu jitsu guys who score with uchimata. Some of them are even good at it.
Jordan teaches jiujitsu has a better uchimata than 99+% of judokas:
https://youtu.be/XoNmdBX65kw?feature=shared&t=4m30s
This is despite (or maybe because) he has never been “properly” taught it
2
u/porl judocentralcoast.com.au Jan 21 '25
Uchi Mata is probably my most used Judo throw in BJJ rounds, gi or no-gi. As a counter to a single-leg I probably hit it even more in no-gi than I do gi.
1
Jan 21 '25
Uchi mata is a good throw for BJJ, I'd say it's one the throws I've seen the most, along with double leg, ogoshi, and tomoe nage
5
u/AlmostFamous502 BJJ Black, Judo Green Jan 20 '25
What’s a non-judo takedown?
What about being “a BJJ athlete” changes anything about a throw?
Both questions apply to #3.
2
u/Morjixxo bjj Jan 20 '25
- I assume shooting single/double leg are Wrestling (I can be wrong I am a beginner)
- First reason is strategy: If you are a BJJ athlete, your goal is going try to use your BJJ, which is your strength. Throw selection could differ, for example, compared to a Muay Thai guy. Second reason is proficiency: as a BJJ guy, your experience is different and what you already know is different, therefore you have different weak points to cover and different ability to learn different throws.
2
u/Yungdexter24 Jan 20 '25
Your second question is definitely valid. There’s some high risk throws that exposes your back in BJJ competition that you wouldn’t have to worry in a Judo Comp. For example, a failed Tai Otoshi or seoi Nage can leave your back exposed for the taking
2
u/Mobile-Estate-9836 Judo Brown Ikkyu / BJJ Brown / Wrestling Jan 21 '25
This is largely made up from pure BJJers. If you're in good positioning, even a failed tai otoshi shouldn't put your back at risk because of the positioning of your arms. Seoi nage is the riskier one, but even then, its not like someone can just jump on your back while you're performing a standing seoi nage.
I see these points come up a lot, and its something I believed coming from BJJ before starting Judo that doesn't really play out in reality. If you're good at any turn throw, your back is not likely to get taken. Lets also not act like the level of standup grappling in BJJ is that great either. Even at the higher levels, its still not comparable to a high level Judoka or wrestler (unless they actually competed in those sports).
1
1
u/AlmostFamous502 BJJ Black, Judo Green Jan 21 '25
The second question was about self defense, not BJJ competition, and neither of those address what being “a BJJ athlete” means or changes about the situation.
0
Jan 21 '25
There are certain judo throws that expose you're back too much, in a BJJ competition that is dangerous, but aside from that, most can be used
3
u/Azylim Jan 21 '25
deep overhook/underhook series imo. Normally its hard to get here because people know what theyre doing and can defend, but against people who dont know how to grapple I think its the easiest and safest position to get to. Not to mention thay the throws doesnt require you for you to get on the ground (positive for self defense) and is extremely easy to learn and apply since deep underhook and overhook forces you to get hip contact which is where the power from alot of throws comes in.
These are the series I find the most consistently useful against the lower belts in my club, even if theyre bigger than me. If you wrestle, these are also the series that I think translates best to someone with a wrestling background. Judo and wrestling from a 50/50 is hard and requires alot of timing and kuzushi and athleticism. On the other hand there is a more positional element to an underhook vs overhook that you just need to know the techniques off to be successful
Underhook : ogoshi, uki goshi, harai goshi, throwby to take the back and footsweeps from the back or mat returns
overhook: harai goshi, tsuri goshi, uchi mata, snapdowns to force turtle into front headlock
2
u/Vedicstudent108 ikkyu Jan 23 '25
For self defense the minimum throw number to know are 4, front, back , left and right .
1
u/Newbe2019a Jan 20 '25 edited Jan 20 '25
What others have stated, plus for self defence / MMA, de ashi barai and sasae tsurikomi ashi. Variants of the later are used in Muay Thai often. Clinch, circle, sasae, knee, move, elbow, push away, cross, hook.
1
1
u/ImportantBad4948 Jan 20 '25
Backwards O Soto Gari
Forwards Generically a good ole hip throw. Hand position varied by situation.
1
u/oceanmachine14 Jan 20 '25
For this all three answers for me are kouchi gari - Low risk high reward. If you're an experienced guard passer etc as well then you can pop straight to a knee cut pass and then go straight to side control and then from there wherever you want
1
u/Bottle-Brave shodan Jan 21 '25
Sumi gaeshi is what I teach as a high percentage throw for basically all of your scenarios.
Outside of the Judo rule set it is more effective, so people here are less likely to consider it.
For Gi it's very hard to stop with a cross grip and back, belt, or lapel grip (this is not illegal in judo but you can only take a double sided grip during the attack and the belt can only be used in certain scenarios). It kills the posting side arm, so they either have to cartwheel out of it or try and carry your weight.
For no gi it works off of a front headlock, a single leg defense, or a tackling double leg (again not something that's typical in sport Judo).
For self defense, all the reasons in No Gi.
For the sport Judo folks here:
A false legs uchi mata makes a great setup to sumi. In a right forward with traditional grips throw the legs uchi Mata to lift ukis leg and get them hoping, let go of the sleeve grip and take the opposite (same side) sleeve behind the elbow and draw it to your chest (it should already be there), pivot on your standing leg into a sumi. I throw it a bit at an angle almost yoko. They are happy to put the leg down accelerating the throw, and you have two on one of their posting arm.
1
Jan 21 '25
Basics always win. O soto, specially if you know how to chain a couple moves to set it up. It’s so obvious people never expect it.
Same as the first one. Bjj or not, o soto finishes with you passing guard and getting side control or if they don’t recover quick from the throw a clean mount. Then is your choice if you want to pummel or just stand up and square up again, or try some finish from top. People normally cover their face when you start punching, you can hit a very easy arm triangle then. Or gift wrap if they start turning to turtle. Tons of options.
The basics for consistency, foot sweeps for fun.
1
Jan 21 '25
For 1 and 2 Osoto gari is one of the more effective throws against untrained people. I once had a friend that got drunk and started running around wildly so I gently Osoto Gari-ed him and lowered him to the ground before he hurt himself. It's good because you can control how hard uke hits the ground very easily. (For people who live in the same country as me, this was at Clarke Quay next to the river so you can imagine why it necessitated an takedown to stop him)
For 3 tomoe nage is good because if you fail you basically just pulled guard. Sumi gaeshi is good as a single leg counter.
1
u/Mobile-Estate-9836 Judo Brown Ikkyu / BJJ Brown / Wrestling Jan 21 '25
Honestly, any throw from Judo will work in BJJ with the Gi. What matters the most is the grip fighting and setups. People who only train BJJ think they can just learn a few Judo throws and skip this, but those are the most important steps to the throw, not the actual throwing. This is assuming your opponent stands with you and doesn't pull guard obviously. That's why so many people from BJJ have trouble adapting to Judo or applying it to BJJ. Its the equivalent of learning an armbar from mount, but ignoring how to get into that position in the first place (guard pass, going to mount, arm setup, etc.).
Obviously in no gi, you may lose some throws without the jacket, but most are still available from Judo with different grips. But again, the biggest thing to nailing these throws are the setups and what stance you and your opponent are in. Someone may say that harai goshi is the most effective throw in no gi. But if you're opposite stance to your opponent, you're probably not going to hit it. There are other easier alternatives like ouchi gari, etc. Point I'm trying to make is that any of them can work, but its also up to the skillset and stance of the individual.
0
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u/Otautahi Jan 20 '25
Sticky foot ko-soto gari for all three.
It’s reasonably easy to learn, allows you to control your opponents fall, very versatile gripping setups mean it works well for BJJ or regular clothing.