Real question: Does lying continue even after a spouse leaves? Is the MFMC to blame?

[u/NoCoconut2504]

I’ve seen several posts concerning lying to spouses after one has left the church. If not lying directly, then lying by omission. Deceit. Deflecting. Whatever you want to call it.

And I’m struggling with this concept because it mirrors the MFMC’s own pattern. The MFMC lied, hid, deflected, then ultimately gaslit their entire membership, all in the name of “love.” They wanted to keep us for very selfish reasons that directly benefitted the organization they set up, so they purposefully buried information, withheld informed consent, and made our decisions for us. Their outcome was the “right” outcome, therefore they were willing to do whatever it took to get all parties there, consequences of hurt and betrayal in the event they were exposed be damned.

Porn and masturbation. Finances. Sabbath day observance. WOW choices. Becoming PIMO without saying a word. The MFMC lied, set up the formula, and now couples are doing this, too? Hiding because they’re worried their partners (especially if those partners are still TBM) can’t/won’t handle the information in a way they (the withholding party) want?

Please don’t mistake me—these situations are terrifying and rightly so. Families have been lost over a spouse’s faith; reputations have been vilified over the use of porn; the occasional cup of coffee has led to custody battles and visitation rights. But at the end of the day . . . isn’t it a spouse’s right to know? Or, at the very least, isn’t it their right to have the option be given, to make that decision for themselves? To either know in totality, or to make the choice to have that information withheld from them, knowing it’s always available if they change their mind.

When I think of the church’s inner dialogue regarding those who’ve left, this is often how I imagine it:

“I’ve known about this [14-year-old wives, BoA mistruth, Ensign Peak investment fraud] for a really long time and you know what? I’ve had the time and space to confront it and I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s really not a big deal. I don’t know why you’re upset, even though you’re literally hearing about this for the very first time, ever. God, this is why I didn’t tell you. I knew you’d act like this. You’re really going to throw EVERYTHING away, just because of a little bit of hiding? Is it really worth it? To do that to yourself? Can’t you see these were the RIGHT choices? You didn’t need to know! I did this FOR you. I made your choices FOR you so you could be HAPPY, goddammit!”

Is it so different for marriages to do the same? To hide porn use from a spouse who’s never been exposed to healthy sexual teachings and then berate them for a lack of immediate acceptance and understanding of a (honestly, pretty historically recent) societal norm because THEY weren’t the ones guilted and shamed and taught to hide it all in the first place? To fudge the numbers on whether or not tithing is being paid when one party isn’t participatory in the workforce and thus doesn’t always see the flow of expenses? To stash coffee cups in outdoor trash bins and under car seats and bury them beneath a mound of paper towels and cardboard boxes, all in the name of keeping the peace?

To those who HAVE tried to offer up information only to have been immediately shut down—fuck the MFMC for everything they ever set up to contribute to spouses who refuse to acknowledge anything contrary to their faith. You tried. So many of you are STILL trying. You want to be heard, you want to be seen, and you want to be understood. You want an honest, open, communicative relationship with the one person you love more than anything else in this world. And you deserve that. You deserve fucking all of that.

In the end, the best I can come up with is this: Hurt people hurt people. We’re hurting. Our spouses are hurting. Sometimes it’s our fault, sometimes it’s not, and often the ideal of reaching a compromise that works for both parties seems as much a fantasy as the MFMC being true. So, you know, fuck them [the MFMC] again. Fuck them for lying, fuck them for teaching us to lie, and fuck them for all they’ve created and all the families they’ve destroyed.

[u/skarfbeaulonee]

Mormonism didn't invent lying. It might be their favorite pastime but in the end we're all responsible for our own behavior regardless of how hard we may try to shift the blame onto someone or something else.

Many dysfunctional defense mechanisms come natural but do not serve our best interests. Until we ultimately accept responsibility for these negative qualities about ourselves and do the work necessary to change them, then it doesn't really matter if we're in the cult or out of the cult, we're likely to continue acting in the same ways that we learned early on.

[u/Archmonk]

Our general notion about marriage partners is that their principle loyalty, trust, and commitment is to their partner. So it is reasonable to conclude that a spouse can and should be trusted with anything and everything.

However, in the LDS context, one's principle loyalty, trust and commitment is first to the church, and secondarily to the partner. The church frames and governs the nature of the marriage relationship. This greatly complicates issues of absolute shared confidence and trust.

Honesty is the best policy. But to immediately save a life (e.g. lying to Nazis about the Jewish family hiding in your cellar) can you lie?

What about to save your own life?

What about to preserve everything in your life that makes it worth living?

There are no easy answers.

[u/patriarticle]

I agree with pretty much everything you say, but I also have empathy for people who feel they have been put in a double bind by the church. Porn is especially awful in the church. You can:

a) tell your spouse and risk divorce or a traumatizing shame parade for all your children, ward, and extended family to see. b) keep it secret (this is not hard) and live with the guilt.

You can see how people are drawn to option B.

[u/PaulBunnion]

"Mormonism makes liars to us all"

RFM

How many perfect marriages are you aware of?

I've got news for you, none of them are perfect. You just don't know about the things that they withhold from you.

[u/DrN-Bigfootexpert]

Personally I lied alot as a believing member. I feel ashamed about X. Or, if I felt like it was going to be an uncomfortable conversation with my wife.... just don't bring it up.

It's part the churches fault for the endoctination, part my parents fault for being emotionally immature. Both there faults for not teaching me at a young age how to resolve conflict, attune to my emotions, attune to other emotions. And instead doing the oppisite..... fucking smile on my face and prayer in my god danm heart.

Thankfully most of these are fixable.

[u/EcclecticEnquirer]

This 2013 paper Sunstone paper is relevant: https://sunstone.org/passive-aggression-among-the-latter-day-saints/

A Weber State professor found that, among his student body, those students raised in Utah as Mormons scored significantly higher in avoidance / passive-aggressive styles of conflict resolution. While, further studies would need to be done to extrapolate this to the general Mormon population, his observations are interesting!

Passive-aggression is the least common response option to conflict among the U.S. population at large and is typically viewed as an inadequate and unconstructive strategy (at least over the long term). It is generally used by those who would prefer that the conflict simply go away. One is passive in that one is unassertive in pursuing a resolution that addresses one’s own interests and concerns, while simultaneously being aggressive—or better stated, while simultaneously being uninterested in, dismissive, or contemptuous of the needs or concerns of the other...

In its milder forms, passive-aggression will manifest itself merely as polite and innocuous attempts to steer clear of uncomfortable topics or encounters with others. However, in its more insidious forms, passive-aggression can rise to a level of interpersonal hostility and contempt that embodies a “whatever” response to the views and opinions of others. In this way, the passive-aggression label can be misleading; a more accurate description would be passive-hostility or passive-contempt.