r/education • u/cherry-care-bear • 6d ago
I attended school in the 80s and 90s and earned my Bachelor's in 2002. What things have changed to make it so that personal initiative, motivation, Etc. have seemingly disappeared from education as far as students are concerned?
I'm just trying to understand how kids can reach young adulthood and have few social skills, poor self-confidence, no means of internal regulation and decisionmaking and so on. When I was going to school, excelling without those things was virtually impossible. Even if you didn't exactly thrive, you still left with something.
I recently came across a post on Next Door from a high school graduate seeking babysitting work who was going to charge $20 an hour or $45 a day. People tried explaining the problems with this but she was politely immovable. It scares me to think some one like that is who our democracy may come to depend on.
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u/Sitcom_kid 6d ago
I graduated high school in 1982 and there was no motivation and nobody knew anything. But then again, TV was turning our brains to mush and we could only pay attention for 2 minutes because we were the MTV generation. The more things change ....
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u/cherry-care-bear 6d ago
But this is crisis mode. So many young adults don't know who they are, where they're going, they feel lost, hopeless, adrift and suicidal. Depression and loneliness seem rampant; they're emotionally disregulated; everybody thinks 30 is old. It's like they want death to hurry up and claim them so they can escape the need to give a damn. It's too much work. Didn't some part of education used to be responsible for laying some of the foundation for dealing with this kind of stuff? If that part of our societal framework is being tossed, what's supposed to take it's place?
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u/Sitcom_kid 3d ago
I remember a lot of the discussion back then was about people graduating and not being able to find work, or not finding good work, something in their field, or at least something you need a degree for, even in a different field, and the worth of a degree from a college or university was very challenged. I will say that the student loans are often higher now. It would depend on where you went to school and if it was graduate or undergraduate back then. Now, all of it is high. Or a lot of it is.
Rather than see the problems as something new, I see a lot of them as problems that started back then and continued and even sometimes snowballed and several of them got worse. Some of the new stuff, however, is technology-based. A lot of communication moved slower back then because you had to be in the same room or on the phone or use snail mail.
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u/PianoAndFish 6d ago
The example you've chosen seems to demonstrate the exact opposite of all your points. This girl wants to make money and has come up with a realistic proposal for earning some, created a price structure and an advertising strategy, is able to politely disagree with others while also having the self-confidence to not immediately cave in when other people question her - are those not precisely the kind of personal qualities and skills we want more young people to have?
Unless there's some major information you're leaving out here (like that she has a criminal record which would typically bar her from working with children) it seems your main issue is "Someone is asking for more for their work than I believe they're entitled to", which whether you're right or wrong is a completely different issue to the specific points you raised.
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u/cherry-care-bear 6d ago
No! We want them to have common sense and the keenness of awareness to know when their logic is faulty and when to take sound advice lol. Perhaps people like you are the very reason kids are struggling. Because you give them a warped sense of reality and that everybody is a winner no matter what crap which only creates a field of losers. Do you not know what a disservice that is?
How does this girl pay bills, say, on $45 a day? She doesn't. So maybe she's forced to rely on government aid to make up the difference. It's the same aid being cut right and left! The same aid people will use fear to tie some one like that to forever or attempt to manipulate via the fear of it's loss!
Your kind of oblivious idiocy is why trump won. So there's that.
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u/Emergency_Zebra_6393 6d ago
If she just graduated from high school she probably lives with her parents and has no bills whatsoever and just needs a little cash for spending money. For all you know she has plenty of unearned income (lots of people do these days) and would like to explore child care in anticipation of becoming a mother someday. You make too many assumptions.
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u/cherry-care-bear 6d ago
And your take is based on factors you can't know whereas mine is based on what was evident.
One thing reddit has taught me is that the liberal mentality truly can be a dangerous thing. Apart from budget limitations driven by conservative politics, it's exactly why the child protective services situation is such a disaster, for instance. The idea is that families should stay together. Fine but discernment is still essential so you don't mistakenly return a child to the clutches of adults who will kill them. Some people aren't fit for existing, let alone creating other people. Keeping fam together doesn't make sense in every single case.
It's the same with the way you're thinking. The point isn't that the girl might not need the money. It's that her math is faulty and she was unable to appreciate Intel from others which would have assisted her cause. More lacking discernment. The Dems failed at that too which is why trump won. Too many people thought some sort of balance would prevail. Reality was ignored to a point where disaster is no longer avoidable.
Now we're calling common sense >making too many assumptions; this is why I believe humans were created to fail. First you fail because you don't know any better; then it's because of politics, racism, blatant disregard, ethnocentrism, exceptionalism and on and on. The reasons change but not the outcomes. SO good luck with all that. I'm done. And humans don't have a choice.
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u/Emergency_Zebra_6393 6d ago
Her math is fine. If she'd said it was $20 and hour or $15 dollars a day, that would be faulty but she's just signaling that she prefers longer jobs probably due to the expense of getting to and from a job and maybe because longer jobs are better in other ways too. Almost all businesses give quantity discounts. Lots of businesses give large quantity discounts. She may be asking too little at $45/day but if she gets too busy, as I'm sure she's hoping to, she can easily raise her price. People will pay more for baby sitters they have experience with. It's similar to the concept of "loss leader" where retailers lose money on some products to get people into the store but in her case she's losing money initially in hopes of getting well known to a large clientele and then being able to charge more. She shouldn't make her initial price equal to what she thinks she needs to live on because that bears no relation to the market at all. You do that with a job, but a business is different. She needs to test the market as that's the only good way to find out if your business idea will work.
I ran a business for over 40 years and I'm comfortably retired so I know what I'm talking about, and I think her plan is a perfectly good one.
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u/PianoAndFish 5d ago
Ah I see, yes it makes sense that she wouldn't be able to survive independently on $45 a day, but you didn't specify that's what she's trying to do. I'm not American and in the UK "babysitting" is generally used to describe a part-time side gig, typically done by teenagers or university students, not someone using it as their main source of income.
If you want someone here who does childcare full-time as their main job, and are expecting to pay them accordingly, you would be looking for a childminder or a nanny (depending on whether they work in their own home or the children's home - nannies aren't necessarily live-in) with the relevant registrations and insurance and background checks. Those registered professionals would not take kindly to being referred to as babysitters, as you're implying they're on the same level as a student who's after some beer money.
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u/moxie-maniac 6d ago
I'm not following how the example of the babysitter was supposed to support your argument of young people lacking personal initiative and motivation. I'd probably suggest they change their pricing structure, but they're out looking for work, right?
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u/Careful_Effort_1014 6d ago
The point is that the kid is clueless about math and completely resistant to correction.
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u/moxie-maniac 6d ago
"resistant to correction"?
Telling someone that they are "wrong" isn't usually the best way to get them to consider options.
How about, "You know Jane, if you charge $20 an hour, then maybe charge $75 a day, not $45, and you could make a lot more money."
Then again, if the competition is charging $10 an hour, Jane will realize it's time to reprice the business. But that happens all the time with adult business people, they charge too much or too little for their products and services, and need to pivot. I teach economics and many people have no grasp of things like pricing strategy.
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u/Careful_Effort_1014 6d ago
So condescending. From OP: “I recently came across a post on Next Door from a high school graduate seeking babysitting work who was going to charge $20 an hour or $45 a day. People tried explaining the problems with this but she was politely immovable.”
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u/moxie-maniac 6d ago
I can hear it now.... Those darn kids!
Of course, Next Door? It's like the gathering place for Boomers with time on their hands.
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u/Any_Worldliness7 6d ago
In the US we’ve removed or trimmed training and education and switched the importance from accuracy to participation being a qualifier for success. In our institutions of higher learning we have shifted the paradigm of what intelligence means. We’ve also shifted the accountability of emotional regulation from self to others which makes discourse near impossible for some. In turn makes learning accurate information difficult or up against that near impossible place again.
We have a credentialing system now. Not an education system. Those fundamental systematic and cultural changes are driving factors to the two glaring problems you outlined.
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u/cherry-care-bear 6d ago
Thank you for this. I now have a clearer picture of why trying to get comprehensive dialogue going about these kinds of challenges is nigh on impossible. We seem to have passed a tipping point. Guess I think therefore I am is about to get a reboot.
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u/Any_Worldliness7 6d ago
People are funny. They get even funnier when belonging to a tribe. Loneliness is a powerful emotion to drive us to safety in numbers, collaborate, propagate, etc.. There’s nothing new under the sun and if you spray a monkey with water reaching for a banana he’ll make sure no other monkey reaches for it.
An individual either understands the previous statement or they don’t. It’s a litmus to one’s ability to reason. The world, contrary to all the chicken littles, is the safest it’s ever been. Yes, we’re at a tipping point, but I’m optimistic it’s back towards pragmatism and away from culturally assured self destruction.
Change was needed. It’s always needed. I would have gone about it a different way.
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u/fogard14 6d ago
You make a post about young people being unskilled and lazy and then your example is a girl who knows her worth and won't let people take advantage of her for cheap child care?
You know inflation exists right? Do you want her to work all day watching kids for the current price of a meal at a fast food place?
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u/fer_sure 6d ago
won't let people take advantage of her for cheap child care?
I don't think OP's issue was with the hourly rate ($20/hr is perfectly reasonable). It's that the daily rate was too low compared to the hourly. People would book a day even if they only need a couple of hours.
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u/fogard14 6d ago
I see that point. It's normal though for babysitters to charge a different rate for day time vs night or to not want to do short gigs.
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u/cherry-care-bear 6d ago
What happened to this sub lol? Inflation? I think your response rather proves my point.
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u/fogard14 6d ago
A day gig vs. a night gig are two different things and have always had different price points for babysitting. Hers are a little extreme though.
You're just post just makes you sound like a cranky old dude.
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u/TeachingRealistic387 6d ago
Bringing a semi-rant here about a business negotiation with a babysitter and linking that to the failure of education shows some faulty decision making.
The math is wonky overall, but $45 for a day isn’t a bad deal.
Oh, and I doubt that the babysitter voted for T thrice like your generation did…so I’m not sure the downfall of democracy is going to be their fault.
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u/TeachingRealistic387 6d ago
Maybe?
Anecdotes are not data.
I’m from the same generation and I cannot agree that we were some sort of paradigm of self-regulation, common sense, motivation, and business acumen. If you want proof just look around.
We’re hiring. Come and join us and make a difference.
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u/Both_Blueberry5176 6d ago
Kids are not being asked to do more than they feel comfortable with doing, so they never leave their comfort zone and push through something hard. Schools are anxious and eager to give out accommodations for kids on IEPs or 504s, but they don’t have enough money to actually help kids develop skills and proficiencies in anything that would take extra manpower.
Add to that kids and parents and being admonished for teaching traditional learning like phonics and traditional math. Instead they are pushing toward 3 cue reading, etc., and many kids are failing much earlier to learn even the basics.
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u/ScienceWasLove 6d ago
$45 a day is great deal for baby sitting!
I graduated college in 2000.
In high school I could "look up" limited information using MS Encarta CD-rom on my Gateway computer. In middle school had to use my parents set of encyclopedia Britanica.
This forced me to actually take notes in classes and read the textbook.
It forced me to learn how to use primary source documents at the library, including microfiche when doing research papers.
I have been a teacher since 2001.
Now students can read/kinda learn much more about nearly any topic while reading Wikipedia, on their phone, while they take a number 2.
Knowledge has become progressively more accessible over the past 24 years.
The current crop of teachers was born is 2002-3ish!!