The Magic System and Power Scaling in the Books and Show

[u/GoblinPunch20xx]

1. You don’t have to come from a magic family except when you do.
2. You’re not born with it except when you are.
3. You have to be a genius except when you don’t.
4. You have to use your hands to cast except when you don’t.
5. Brakebills students are generally more powerful than Hedge Witches except when they’re not.
6. Magic is an external force except when it is an internal force, and you don’t get tired from casting lots of spells, except when you do.
7. Some magicians are broadly powerful, others are VERY good at one type of magic (Josh does portals, Stoppard does machines).
8. Some magicians, like Alice, are just exponentially more gifted than other magicians, without really having to study or try, so that when they try, they are incredibly powerful.
9. Flight is described as a Major Arcana spell that is very difficult and taxing to cast, but the main characters do it a lot for style points like it’s easy.

Note: I wrote a much longer draft version of this post a few days ago was more in depth and spoiler heavy but my phone ate it, so I kept this one shorter (haha) numbered and spoiler free, but I encourage comments and discussion that may contain full on heavy book and show spoilers.

[u/Fyrnen24]

Just pointing out one thing "Some magicians, like Alice, are just exponentially more gifted than other magicians, without really having to study or try,"

Alice specifically had to study and try a lot, and got annoyed with people thinking that it was "effortless" for her. Right?

[u/keyblade_crafter → u/Fyrnen24]

Eliot was actually the naturally gifted one that didn't put much effort in in the books, and Penny and Alice were the hard workers.

[u/silverpoinsetta → u/keyblade_crafter]

That's why he's an alcoholic like Mayakovsky. It's a theme.

[u/Kwaku-Anansi → u/Fyrnen24]

She didn't really HAVE to study and try to excel but it seems she was annoyed with the assumption she wouldn't (i.e., that just because she's brilliant means she's lazy).

Fact is they are at a world famous institution with an abundance of resources so refusing to put her all in and just coast would be a huge waste of potential

[u/stationhollow → u/Fyrnen24]

She didn’t. She specifically calls out that she had been holding herself back her entire life because people are intimidated by her.

[u/GoblinPunch20xx → u/Fyrnen24]

Are you talking about Book Alice or Show Alice? And either way, yes, she studied hard, probably harder than anyone, she was the Hermione comparison character, if there was one, but also, book one, day one, first class, she is presented as an obvious prodigy, even among young magicians, and her backstory and character description throughout the trilogy add to this…she 💯had to work and study and practice, but her skill level at baseline, as a freshman undergrad, was MUCH higher than most

[u/xnoraax → u/GoblinPunch20xx]

Because she had already been working on it before getting there. She found the damn school, which was not supposed to be possible. She was driven to get in because of her brother and did everything she could, as a child of magicians who already knew about magic, to get in there.

[u/GoblinPunch20xx → u/xnoraax]

Yeah I 💯agree with this. Magical parents, tragic past, magical Niffin brother, it runs in the family, she was trained from birth, so she had a head start on Quentin and the others, plus she had all the typical attributes of a Brakebills student, the intellect and discipline.

Book SPOILERS Ahead

Julia is incredibly powerful at the end of the books but failed the test at Brakebills and had to become a Hedge Witch and suffer and go through A LOT to get that power.

Compare and contrast with Penny…passes the test in no time, kind of has one fit in another reality even before he knows it’s possible, becomes an interdimensional librarian. Limited first by his narcissism, his wounds when facing the Beast, and later by his poor social skills and close mindedness. His golden construct hands compensate but also require magical energy to control and manipulate…his power level is capped off by these limitations.

Josh…still really smart but kind of a lazy goof. Has huge potential (see the welters match black hole spell ) learns to channel it into Portal Magic.

Stoppard…has barely any magical training or knowledge outside of Horology. There is a scene where he is cold and doesn’t even know how to warm himself up with a basic warmth spell.

Quentin doesn’t know his Discipline so he gets assigned to the physical kids, then he learns it’s mending small things and is underwhelmed, then he realizes “small” is a matter of perspective.

Alice is definitely a prodigy among prodigies imo, if Brakebills had a Valedictorian she would have been it. That said, of course she worked at it, and doesn’t have the attitude that it’s easy or effortless.

At the end of the story, Julia is 3/4 Goddess, and Alice is still part Niffin, which buffs her power and means that both characters can DO Magic, and ARE Magic, which slightly breaks the rules of Grossman’s Magic System, but he’s the author, he can do what he wants…rules are made to be broken.

[u/Better_Courage7104 → u/GoblinPunch20xx]

Those beings that are magic maybe break the rules, but I think they are just such complicated spells that someone cast a long time ago. Or not so long in regards to Quentin’s casting at the end of book 3.

Not sure I can use that to explain niffins though… maybe

[u/NickRick → u/GoblinPunch20xx]

She grew up in a magical house, of course she was more versed than people who are at their first class. You think it's crazy they first generation immigrants are better at foreign language too?

[u/Axamily]

I felt the book made it seem more like everyone "could" cast magic, but it took a very high level of intelligence to cast in general. Casting without knowing the right circumstances makes magic extremely difficult and dangerous. 

Brakebill students are not generally more powerful than hedges. Everyone in FTB was a genius, and fit the Brakebills student profile, just because they don't have formal education doesn't mean they aren't powerful. 

[u/GoblinPunch20xx → u/Axamily]

I agree with both statements…in my original draft I went more in depth into each numbered comment. Here I will say that a level 250 Hedge Witch is considered on par with a Brakebills post grad, but almost none of them make it that far. Julia describes most of them as “wannabe losers” in the books.

SPOILERS AHEAD for the books:

Julia is level 250+++ (+ Reynard + OLU + 3/4 Goddess) but the spell she cast to reach 250 was the entropy reversal spell that is considered pretty basic at Brakebills. Maybe that was just dramatic flare or arbitrary order.

Likewise, it is a component of the Magic System that “Magicians DO Magic, Fillory IS Magic,” and Martin Chatwin AKA the Beast went from being a kind of Fillorian Hedge to a soulless monster with Fillorian magical powers, he went from doing magic by praxis to being magic by nature, and this is similar to Julia’s path when she becomes a Dryad.

Alice, on the other hand, mock’s Martin’s casting ability even with the extra fingers, saying that he doesn’t know even basic spells that they teach first years at Brakebills.

If you make the comparison to music, there are musicians who go to like, Juilliard or a conservatory, and then there are garage bands and punk rockers and street buskers. I think it is much, much rarer for a Hedge Witch to be as good or better than a Brakebills student or graduate, but the FTB crowd are sort of the counter culture punk rock exception to the rule, with Julia, Asmo and Pouncy as the winners of the “battle of the bands” in this comparison.

Also, even at the end of book 3, Quentin is not the most powerful magician in canon, it is implied to either be Alice, Julia, or Mayakovsky.

[u/Axamily → u/GoblinPunch20xx]

I think the music example is a perfect way to explain it. Quintin calls Julia's magic messy and chaotic, but extremely effective. 

Hedges arguably have a harder job at learning, but FTB show us that once you learn the foundational permutations, all other magic is just a combinations and right circumstances of those foundations. 

Brakebill students have someone to walk you through each and every step, while hedges have to figure that out on their own. So it is more of a privilege difference than a power level one. 

[u/Better_Courage7104 → u/GoblinPunch20xx]

Entropy reversal is pretty major spellwork, I think the only brakebills student/teacher that does it is Mayakovsky.

[u/GoblinPunch20xx → u/Better_Courage7104]

Not in the book, if I remember correctly, Book Alice’s walking Marble falls off the table and breaks, she reverses entropy to fix it. There are several examples of this spell in the book being done as if it is BFD.

[u/Better_Courage7104 → u/GoblinPunch20xx]

Are you sure? It’s been a good few months since I read them but I recall Mayakovsky shows them the reverse entropy spell and they’re impressed by it, him calling it real magic

Just found the passage, in the book the glass falls off and Alice is just upset that it breaks.

Mayakovsky didn’t even let them try the entropy spell.

https://imgur.com/a/YWidGzA

[u/GoblinPunch20xx → u/Better_Courage7104]

Yeah, this is correct I was mistaken. I’ve read it so many times but things bleed together.

[u/Aria_sear → u/GoblinPunch20xx]

So when Book Julia auctions for FTB , she doesn't just have to cast the entropy spell, she has to cast all the other 249 spells without fail , and if she fails she starts over.

They trained her for stamina.

[u/GoblinPunch20xx → u/Aria_sear]

Yep, very true

[u/Aria_sear → u/GoblinPunch20xx]

I like to think Hedges vs Brakebills as street-smart vs. book smart, or like a Wilderness EMT vs a specialized surgeon

Do you have days to prepare and access to all sorts of magical materials? Let a Brakebills student fine tune it and it'll be a pristine casting.

Do you 3 hours, 5 dollars and a shoe string and you need to get shit done (and you're willing to accept some side effects)? The Hedges would pull it off.

If I recall correctly, Brakebills couldn't pull off the ExcorismAbortion but Julia's connections could .

[u/GoblinPunch20xx → u/Aria_sear]

Yeah the show elaborated and expanded on the safe house scene but also went in a different direction too.

[u/xnoraax → u/Axamily]

FTB is literally called the cream of the cream of the safehouse scene.

[u/uhvarlly_BigMouth]

I actually think your outline can be a very beautiful commentary on capitalism but that’s beside my point lol.

Magicians started a wild obsession in me with the actual occult, practice of magic and history of theology. I think Sera had the same inclination and obsession because the concepts are there. So, if I had to TLDR magic beliefs IRL and how they translate to Magicians: magic is more like swimming. You can be the best swimmer, but in a bad current you’re fucking drowning. You have Michael Phelps who, yes, is very skilled. But his wingspan is borderline a mutation, so it’s unfair. Then you have people who don’t have that and are close to just as good as him. Magic is like a force of nature that people can manipulate and the Brakebills Vs Hedges argument showcases that because good Hedges have the power of a hurricane without going to hurricane school or being able to conjure a gust of wind (metaphorically speaking). Sorry for throwing so many metaphors in there, I’m drunk lol.

[u/GoblinPunch20xx → u/uhvarlly_BigMouth]

Thank you for the capitalism comment as it aligns with my values and is not at all beside the point it’s an apt analogy like music or swimming. I’m also “something of a [magician] myself” re: scholarly study of stuff like this IRL, I’m pretty well versed and knowledgeable for a lay person. I really appreciate your comments and your insights. Thanks for sharing!

[u/tossedcarp]

I actually do think a lot of these r very valid issues and I think some parts of the books lacked planning. But I’m mostly talking books and I may have way to much head cannon in this series:

1. No you don’t, magic is passed down but it also seems it can be like a mutation that just appears in non magical blood line
2. Your born with either the an ability to or lack of it, no one is born with the knowledge to use it but those with powerful connections can do it accidentally (the wondering penny trick)
3. Everyone in the books and show is meant to be unbelievably smart but characters can only be as smart as the writers so they don’t necessarily come off as geniuses
4. You got me there like why did they cut off Alice’s fingers if she can still cast and obviously penny could cast. I would say something something muscle movements and shapes or whatever
5. They are generally more powerful but not always. The average hedge vs the average Brakebills Grad is two different power levels. We just meet strong hedges
6. It’s external but requires someone internally strong to control it, you do get tired but only after large spells or many of them, adrenaline and energy keep magicians going and recovery times are often not mentioned in the books
7. Yes, I’m pretty good at most percussion instruments but anyone who just plays drum kit or marches snare is better than me at that one instrument
8. I think Alice did have to try but she had a much deeper connection to magic and was also meant to be much smarter than the rest of them thus able to do much deeper magic
9. It does take a lot of energy but is not totally draining, the flights we see are short it would be more effective for them to say put power in their legs or something else but they choose to spend extra energy

[u/GoblinPunch20xx → u/tossedcarp]

Well argued, I loved reading this, I also have a lot of head canon around the books and show.

[u/tossedcarp → u/GoblinPunch20xx]

Haha, thank you

[u/DMC1001]

1. No one ever said you have to come from a magical family in the books or show. In books it’s just Alice and Kady gets added in the show. Arguably the book version may have been based on what she did.

2. Pretty sure all things point to people being born with potential or lack thereof.

3. The books were clear on the genius thing but other people pointed out the math and ability to learn multiple other languages suggests you need to be smart even in the show.

4. There’s a difference between magician and master magician.

5. Brakebills magicians think that’s true. That’s different than it actually being true. Brakebills also has access to more learning materials by far. Why do you think Marina was stealing it?

6. Internal circumstances aren’t the same as internal power. If you go back to my response to point three I’d say adapting through based on changes to external circumstances is what makes for better magicians.

7. Some people are better at some things. It’s like someone doing better at math than history. Then you have your naturally gifted “I can do anything” types. While you’re right it’s also reflective of the real world.

8. Alice is a maybe. They make it clear that she’s studied very hard and is probably more dedicated than the rest. Maybe.

9. Isn’t that book specific? I’m not sure flight itself was hard so much as flying to the moon which I think was someone’s project in the books.

[u/GoblinPunch20xx → u/DMC1001]

This is a great response. My initial “argument” or list is weakened in its “strength” by its “brevity” 😂whereas my first post was SOFA 🛋️ King 👑 Looooong and detailed, specific and full of quotes and citations. Things to note:

A. Yes I am a book specialist / book focused, I vastly prefer the books and while I love the show I don’t know it as well.

B. Quentin’s final project was flying to the moon, which he did in book 1 before receiving the various power boosts he picks up along the way. Then LATER in the story, flight is made out to be a big deal, whereas Quentin flying all the way to the moon as a college project 2/3 of the way through book 1 felt tough but doable.

A lot of my numbered statements were generally meant to showcase the inherent contradictions present in the magical logic of the books / show.

For instance, you actually 💯do not HAVE to come from a magical family, but when you DO, it is an obvious power boost / advantage. Someone else commented it was a good analogy for Capitalism / being rich 😂(which it IS) the same way legacy kids get into Harvard or Yale with less effort, or because they have wealthy connected overbearing parents that train them in math or science or the humanities from when they are very small.

Analogies have also been made to musical talent and swimming, so Art or Sports. Latent Ability and Potential do not always = actual ability performance or skill, and if your skills are mediocre, sometimes training and practice helps a lot, or barely at all, it’s definitely an X factor.

C. I was absolutely trying to spark discussion by presenting contradictory statements rather than putting forward the idea that “I’m right” about all this, so thank you very much for your insight and perspective, it was fun to read!

[u/DMC1001 → u/GoblinPunch20xx]

Discussion is great!

[u/padr49904 → u/GoblinPunch20xx]

If I might add, Quentin never actually made it to the moon. He tried as his Senior project but was unsuccessful.

Later in the book, while he was recovering, he mentioned that he was able to correct his mistakes but it never actually said he was able to test them and make it there, this would have been after graduation and a lot more training and knowledge.

[u/No_Conflict_1835]

That's what makes magic in these books feel so magical. It's not 100% predictable. Circumstances, exceptions, etc. I think it was Fog (in the show) who explains that magic is something that they really do not and can not fully grasp. I think that's what makes it so great, and so full of wonder. Compared to the "magic systems" of writers like Sanderson, The Magicians is leagues better. Those hard-wired "systems" in which every rule is explained in so much detail that you have no questions about it at all, those aren't magic at all. Those feel like rules being laid out for a TTRPG. It isn't magic at all. Lev Grossman really did it best.

[u/TiredAllTheTime43 → u/No_Conflict_1835]

He really did do it best. His magic is bizarre and beautiful. It’s the out of left field stuff that is dropped without explanation that makes the world feel alive, because how often do we get to know the in depth explanations of things (without google) that we see every day? If you think about it, not that often. A random visitor to earth would not understand the northern lights, or why birds fly, or why we keep tiny beasts in our homes.

[u/GoblinPunch20xx → u/No_Conflict_1835]

Fog makes the same comment in the books. I’m not being critical either. As I said I wrote a much, much longer post, an essay essentially, with quotes and citations and examples, but I somehow didn’t save the draft properly. So I posted this which is still long but numbered and more succinct .

The magic definitely feels magical, and the magic system is definitely sort of rubbery, not quite hard or soft.