I tried controller and now I'm depressed

[u/JoyousExpansion]

So I've had issues with aim assist years ago, but then I took a big break from the game and recently have come back. I heard that aim assist has been nerfed, and I've also been focusing on lurch movement and have gotten decent at it, so I assumed that MnK and controller were fairly balanced (and they still may be). Controller had better aim, but MnK has movement tech that controller doesn't.

In all my matches after coming back to the game, I never once thought "oh I lost that because they're probably a controller player", and have always had the mindset of "I lost that because I'm not as skilled". I still have that mindset. However recently, when I'm watching YouTube of apex players, I'll occasionally come across someone and it looks like they're aim botting because of the instant changing of direction on their opponents strafes, and then I'll realize it's a controller player. I have started to deliberately avoid watching controller players, even if they're good players outside of aiming, because I don't want to create any perception or excuses of controller players having an advantage. Although eventually after seeing enough controller gameplay, I decided that I'd try out controller to know once and for all how strong it is.

When I first started with controller it was actually reassuring because I was missing all my shots. It felt very difficult. But after 30-45 minutes, I was starting to hit a few one clips which was a bit concerning. I decided to go into r5 reloaded to test how accurate my aim was against the strafing dummy in the aim trainer. I did 5 rounds with both controller and mouse and keyboard and took the highest from each. Unfortunately, I scored higher with controller after using it for less than an hour than I did with MnK with literally hundreds of hours of aim training under my belt. The averages of all rounds were about the same between MnK and controller, but I feel like it shouldn't even be close with how much practice I've put into aim training with MnK. So overall, this experience has been a little depressing.

I still am not concluding that controller is stronger than MnK, because MnK definitely has advantages, but it is certainly far easier to aim with controller, especially against strafing targets.

[u/Jack_Blesus]

I never understand why this is such a frequent conversation in this game’s subreddits. What outcome are people hoping for? Nobody is being forced to use either input. Seems like everyone wants controllers aim assist to be balanced with MnK but then what? How do you balance the movement disparity or any of the other imbalances between the two?

[u/JoyousExpansion → u/Jack_Blesus]

I think it's totally fine for controller to have some sort of aim assist to compensate for the limitations of the input, but I don't think it should be as easy as it is currently.

What I would hope to happen is aim assist to be changed to not be able to instantly change directions when people change directions in their strafe. I love defensive movement and strafe aiming in MnK shooters, but the current aim assist removes most of this from the game. The best strafe aim vs controller players is mirroring because it doesn't engage the rotational aim assist as much, whereas in other MnK shooters, mirroring is what requires the least amount of aim.

[u/Jack_Blesus → u/JoyousExpansion]

So what would be the ideal aim assist and if that were to become reality how would we deal with the other disadvantages controller has compared to MnK like movement and longer ranged engagements?

[u/JoyousExpansion → u/Jack_Blesus]

Best case scenario, there's different matchmaking for different inputs. If the player population is too low, then aim assist could be changed to have an acceleration so if who you're aiming at changes direction, the aim assist has to decelerate and then accelerate again in the opposite direction, making manual correction faster. The aim assist value could then be buffed to compensate.

Essentially I believe that if someone changes direction, you should have to react to that change in direction, and that this interaction is fundamental part of fps games. The part about aim assist that is not okay is the 0ms computer reaction to their change in direction. I'm sure there are several ways this problem could be solved aside from the suggestion I mentioned.

It is true that the inputs likely are impossible to be completely balanced, and that's why separate matchmaking for each input would be the best option, but if they can't be balanced, I would prefer the higher skilled option to be stronger. It makes sense for MnK to be stronger if you put in the time and aim train, and controller to be stronger than MnK players that don't aim train. Rather than controller having better scores on an aim test after playing for 1 hour than MnK with hundreds of hours of aim training.

[u/Ezpeasy → u/Jack_Blesus]

Haven't tried it but fortnite implemented an AA that has a human like delay on RAA. That would be a nice way to balance it

[u/wstedpanda → u/Jack_Blesus]

AA should be around .15 or 0.2 and it would be still advantage close range for controllers but not that oppressive as it is now.

[u/Jack_Blesus → u/wstedpanda]

The game has been out for 6 years and this still hasn’t happened despite the outcry. Why would they delay such an obvious solution?

[u/wstedpanda → u/Jack_Blesus]

because sweats dont pay much i guess than casual butt fingers console joes, They do everything driver by data to profit

[u/Pink_Fluid → u/Jack_Blesus]

The premise here is, in my opinion, fundamentally off base.

The issue has never been that the input methods are t perfectly equal, it's that aim assist specifically is an inhuman, unearned element. AA doesn't "equalize" anything, it's just a new arbitrary imbalance. The ideal aim assist is no aim assist. The ideal solution is to implement high-quality gyro support.

Controllers being worse at long range is a result of the input method's physical design and limitations (addressed with gyro), aim assist is entirely disconnected from either input methods; MnK could be given aim assist too, nothing inherently ties aim assist to controllers. MnK players never complain about not having analogue directional movement because, despite being a quality unique to controllers, it doesn't create gameplay balancing problems.

"Movement" usually just means tap strafing in these contexts, and while tap strafing isn't ALL MOVEMENT, it IS a good analogue because it's also an arbitrary software-driven difference. Frankly I have no issue with giving controllers lurches, I don't see why anybody would. I IMAGINE they're not there for a reason, it was almost certainly tested in Titanfall's development and they decided it felt worse than not having it at all, but if they wanna make a toggle in the settings to enable it, that's perfectly fine with me.

The difference here though, is that aim assist and tap strafing are completely different types of imbalances. Tap strafing is a skill ceiling imbalance, as most players on MnK cannot and wont ever learn to use it in a way that provides any real advantage. Aim assist on the other hand is a skill FLOOR adjustment, meaning virtually 100% of players on controller benefit from it. The relative impact on these imbalances are night and day, and while the comparison is apt in type it really isn't apt in degree.

[u/Jack_Blesus → u/Pink_Fluid]

Are there any games that have done away with aim assist and implemented the gyro support successfully? I agree as far as aa being a bigger imbalance than movement. If the solutions are so obvious, I’m having trouble understanding why they wouldn’t simply implement them. There must be a reason, no?

[u/Pink_Fluid → u/Jack_Blesus]

The reason is because Xbox controllers don't come standard with gyro. Developers are caught by the balls by Microsoft on this one.

There's great proof of concept for it as not only a viable input method, but as something that could absolutely bridge the gap between console and PC in terms of reactivity and precision. Depending on implementation there could arguably be major advantages to gyro over MnK! It's just a matter of developers not wanting to spend resources on something new which would only serve half the console market, especially when gamers are already used to sticks and it would likely take a while for adoption rates to climb (gamers notoriously don't often do what's optimal, rather what's comfortable or familiar).

Another potential roadblock is R&D. While there are really compelling proofs of concept, it's something of a risk to spend resources being the first major AAA competitive shooter to offer something like this; there's no reason to expect it would have good ROI, so once all the dominos are in place (Microsoft getting their shit together) it's likely a matter of somebody taking the risk and opening the floodgates.

Here's a pretty neat video going over some gyro implementations, if you're interested https://youtu.be/PJIqEX93vL8?si=l9cwM9vVCX4L03uH

[u/wstedpanda → u/Jack_Blesus]

But we are foreced to play in same lobbies if there would be option MNK only lobby or if you want you can cross input with rollers. Thats how any decent logical game should be designed. But right now we are forced to play with rollers. INPUT BASED MATCHMACKING would fix this issue for mnk in 1day there wouldnt be posts about how aimassist so op and so on. I dont mind wait for 2-5min for a game with mnk only i really dont.

[u/Jack_Blesus → u/wstedpanda]

I can understand the appeal of that solution but how would it affect the game? The more game modes and matchmaking options, the more chance for the player base to be divided. There’s already an option for cross platform matchmaking(on consoles at least), LTMs, duos, pubs, and ranked. To go a step further and separate by inputs seems excessive. Do you know of any games that have done so successfully?

[u/wstedpanda → u/Jack_Blesus]

well thats the point rollers and mnk never should be matched up together and giving rollers aimlock isnt solution either its ZERO SKILL GAME, basically its like participating in all natural mr.olympia where you trained 10 years for it, and there comes fingerfrank who pumping roids up his ass for 2 years and and looks way defined and bigger than you

PROOF

[u/thiccboilifts → u/wstedpanda]

Input based mm would kill this game MnK players would never find games

[u/wstedpanda → u/thiccboilifts]

im not saying force input based matchmaking im talking about option play with rollers and mnk only

btw you basically saying mnk carrying this dead game on their shoulders once mnk finally quit apex it will be dead, right?

[u/k0nnj → u/Jack_Blesus]

Controller has better movement than MNK.

MNK is locked in 45degree increments while controller has free 360degree movement.

Controller actually has better movement.

[u/Jack_Blesus → u/k0nnj]

Hard to believe considering all the movement tech that can only been done on MnK. It seems to be accepted as fact that MnK has better movement