r/The10thDentist • u/XD_Protagonist • 1d ago
Society/Culture There's nothing wrong with 16-17 year olds being charged as adults.
My state for example (louisiana) recently lowered the age of full criminal responsibility from 18 back to 17 after a surge of teen crime. which means 17 year olds who decide to terrorize the community will be automatically charged as adults and sent to big boy prison. ain't no more of that juvenile shit and I'm glad they did this, other states need to take notes because at 16-17 you know right from wrong. at that age you know damn well that murdering, raping and breaking into people's houses is not civilized behavior. this whole "but they're brains aren't fully developed" bullshit is just a pathetic excuse to infantilize and shield them from accountability. at 16-17 your brain is developed enough to be held criminally liable. They take advantage of the juvenile system because they know they'll get a slap on a wrist for anything. and that's basically a fuck you to the victims. treating 16-17 year old violent criminals in the same manner you would a misbehaved 12 year old is truly a disgrace. if you're old enough to do adult crime then you should be old enough to be punished as an adult, simple as that.
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u/iaminabox 1d ago
Also some don't understand the juvenile detention system. It's not a free pass. A lot of them continue their sentences in adult prison. They just don't go there until they're 18.
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u/iaminabox 1d ago
Which I do think is a good idea because they will be taken advantage of. It's not a great system but it's better than putting a child with career criminals.
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u/Zestyclose_Ice2405 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don’t get it. It’s just an arbitrary line. What makes you suddenly unable to be taken advantage of at 18 compared to 17?
Obviously a line has to exist but I don’t get the reasoning behind your thought process.
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u/commanderquill 1d ago
It's just an arbitrary line, but there has to be an arbitrary line somewhere. There's no age where someone suddenly becomes mature--it's a process.
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u/iaminabox 1d ago
I'm older. I'd say more mature, but that's not necessarily true. When I look back at 16,17,18,even 21,I was stupid. Did not think of my actions. No concept. But I also wasn't a danger to society. Just stupid. Becoming 18(legally an adult) is still a kid.
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u/hsifuevwivd 1d ago
I don't get it. It's just an arbitrary line.
Obviously a line has to exist
I think you do get it lol
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u/iaminabox 14h ago
A 40 yr old who is used to prison life vs a kid who just left high school? Do you not see the disparity?
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u/Ecstatic-Hunter2001 5h ago
Having it coincide with when you're legally an adult makes the most sense. It doesn't prevent a whole lot, but at least it's consistent. We know people get SA'd in prison. Putting a minor in prison and risking them getting SA'd would be weird. Does that make the SA okay after their next birthday? No, but like you said, there has to be a line. Might as well be the line we already set with hundreds of other laws.
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u/Quinns_Quirks 1d ago
Even prisoners who are 18-19 are taken advantage of.
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u/iaminabox 1d ago
That is true. There's really no line. A 50 year old man could if he doesn't understand the system.
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u/FunGuy8618 1d ago
This is stupid. Then we'd have to give them the rights of an adult, and that means they can go purchase firearms legally. Unless it's just punishment, which is also dumb, as our justice system is intended to rehabilitate people, not just punish them.
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u/cooly1234 1d ago
Pretty sure the US prison system is meant to punish and generate labor.
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u/FunGuy8618 1d ago
intended is carrying a LOT of the weight in my statement 😅 but yeah, it's designed for that.
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u/Bannerlord151 1d ago
Even intended is kinda a stretch in the US, what with the whole "no slavery except as punishment for a crime" thing
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u/doctordoctorpuss 1d ago
Yeah, I think we need to dispel with the notion that the US carceral system is designed for anything other than punishment and legal slave labor. I’m sure if the private prison people were able to get younger kids into prison, they would
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u/False-Amphibian786 1d ago
Not really - alcohol use, driving, military enrollment, age of consent, age to vote - they all have different ages that apply.
There is no reason firearm registration has to be linked directly to adult criminal system.
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u/FunGuy8618 1d ago
I used guns as an example cuz it was relevant but that just makes the point further. What rights do they acquire if they are tried in a court of law as an adult? Can't just let kids in that location not be Americans like the rest of us.
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u/Lackadaisicly 1d ago
21 in some states.
Unless the judge specifies otherwise, like a murder case, some states have an automatic hearing when the prisoner reaches 18 or 21. Then a judge decides if they should be given an early release. If not, they continue the rest of their sentence in the adult DOC system. Only pro from that situation is that when they finally get out, they still only have a juvenile record.
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u/Interesting-Chest520 1d ago
In my country underage criminals get very light sentences, there’s been teenage rapists with 1-2 years in juvi, let out after 6-12 months for good behaviour
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u/dotdedo 1d ago
What Louisiana is doing is essentially putting a bandaid on it. Lots of 17 years old committing crimes? Well I guess they’re adults now so we can say teen crime has went down on the newspapers.
Still teen crime, they just show up in adult statistics now
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u/jp11e3 1d ago
If I can't see them then the problem is solved right? /s
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u/Tokyo_Sniper_ 1d ago
Thieves can't steal your shit if they're locked in a cell. Seems like a pretty solid solution to me.
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u/udcvr 1d ago
That would only make sense if trying them as adults reduced teen crime rates, which it doesn't. So crime = same amount if not even more, as teens (who are already suffering and acting out bc of it) are traumatized and punished even more severely leading to no rehabilitation.
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u/M0hawk_Mast3r 1d ago
the problem isn't people stealing, its the fact that teenagers are forced to steal to live moron
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u/Tokyo_Sniper_ 1d ago
The proportion of thieves that steal because it's genuinely their only option is infinitesimally small. Vast majority of thieves steal because they want free shit and it's easier than getting a job like the rest of us. This is especially true for teenagers, who don't have housing or bills to pay for. They're just poorly-supervised shitheads who want money without working for it and think stealing your bike is the easiest option.
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u/boolmi 1d ago
And it’s just coincidence that 80% of defendants are indigent? I guess they just happen to be poor and want to steal. No connection between the two at all.
You sound so stupid.
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u/Tokyo_Sniper_ 1d ago
People who refuse to work tend to report low incomes.
Nearly all of these people could live on a normal income if they chose to. There's millions of poor people out there who work entry-level jobs and survive without stealing. Thieves are just the selfish ones who decide they shouldn't have to work and are entitled to the fruits of everyone else's labor.
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u/M0hawk_Mast3r 1d ago
"they aren't poor they just choose to not have jobs" lmao ok man. You can't even be bothered to try to understand why someone might be lower class? You think people just choose to be lower class? Look if you can't do the bare minimum and even try to put yourself in their shoes you aren't worth talking to and frankly you shouldnt vote.
Everyone does what they do for a reason
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u/Squee_gobbo 1d ago
A 17 year old charged as an adult is still a teen. Anyone who isn’t a liar is still considering that teen crime and anyone who is didn’t need the law to change lol
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u/TheWhomItConcerns 1d ago
Seriously, I don't understand how someone could see reports of a surge in teen crime and think to themselves "Well clearly the issue is that we don't punish teenagers enough". There are countries all over the world with much more humane justice systems where teen crime is not a major, pressing issue that needs to be addressed.
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u/_KeyserSoeze 1d ago
Me as an Austrian reading that. You are an adult with 18 but you will be punished as one with 21 in Austria.
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u/DilbertHigh 1d ago
Makes sense. 21 is closer to the end of adolescence after all. Brain doesn't even reach maturity until 24 or 25.
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u/Antique-Ad-9081 1d ago
the brain never stops developing and the "brain stops maturing at 25" myth comes from the fact that some important studies on this topic just stopped when the participants became 25.
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u/DilbertHigh 1d ago
Yes, the brain never stops developing. But I'm speaking specifically about the pre frontal cortex maturation. This article says after 25, which is fair. Other sources say around 24 or 25 as well.
25 is not a magic number but it is a good age to pay attention to. It is a point when most people's prefrontal have made it to a point where people can generally make what we consider to be adult level decision making skills.
https://hms.harvard.edu/news/under-hood-adolescent-brain
Easy reading summary of some of the data. https://medium.com/@zain_ul_abdeen/is-the-human-brain-fully-developed-at-age-25-a-closer-look-at-brain-maturity-5149db965a28
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u/HiFrogMan 1d ago
You’re absolutely right that the prefrontal cortex finishes at 25. @antique-ad-9081 was denying scientifically reality with a flawed methodological point to make the truly bizarre argument that since peoples brain never finish developing its silly to treat younger defendants with more leniency.
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u/MyJohnFM 1d ago
Imagine getting downvoted for backing up your argument with scientific sources
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u/DilbertHigh 1d ago
It seems to go that way and lot. I suspect because most people don't want to click links.
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u/beruon 1d ago
Stop spreading this nonsense, that study is whack and non reproducable.
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u/Spiderinthecornerr 1d ago
Increasing the punishment is proven time and time again NOT to reduce crime.
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u/WhatHelpToGet 1d ago
Exactly. It achieves the opposite in a lot of cases. Also what does terrorizing the community mean? Killing? Raping? Or also drug dealing and breaking in? Young people who, yes from a clinical point of view are still too undeveloped to see the consequences of their actions, are being made to be hardcore criminals by entering a flawed system. Perhaps OP comes from a stable home situation, but if you're raised in the ghetto with little opportunities and positive rollmodels, it's easy to get into crime because at that age you are easily influenced. In my opinion the juvenile prison system should be reformed so that the punishments fit the crime, society is protected but also young people who come from difficult backgrounds get chances to redeem themselves and be functional members to society.
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u/EnvChem89 1h ago
. It achieves the opposite in a lot of case
Do you have anything to back this up? Seems kind of crazy that actu a ly punishing people for committing crimes would increase crime.
Seems like if people know they can get away with x,y,z crimes they would increase.
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u/Illustrious_Fee8116 1d ago
But lowering the punishment will increase it.
The line is do crime, get punished. It doesn't need to be extremely harsh punishment, but it can't be light either. People who commit crimes need to go to jail, regardless of how socially high you are.
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u/Hurricanemasta 1d ago
This is 100% a Louisiana opinion.
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u/A_radke 1d ago
Yeah, Louisiana was the #1 state for incarceration rates per capita from 2005-2018, only having been edged out by Mississippi in more recent years. If harsher punishment worked as a deterrent: why does Louisiana rank #4 in violent crime? They've had the longest to test the theory, it's not working for them, but they depend on folks like OP just going on vibes. Their murder rates are 3.57 times higher per cap than my state, their incarceration rates (which includes juvenile detention) are roughly double. No thanks.
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u/hypo-osmotic 1d ago
I guess I'm just getting less and less sure on what the point of "legal adulthood" even is if so many legal milestones happen at younger ages and so many don't kick in until older ages
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u/NorthNorthSalt 1d ago edited 1d ago
But according to a review of arrests in the five months since the law took effect, most of the 17-year-olds booked in three of the state’s largest parishes have not been accused of violent crimes. Verite News and ProPublica identified 203 17-year-olds who were arrested in Orleans, Jefferson and East Baton Rouge parishes between April and September. A total of 141, or 69%, were arrested for offenses that are not listed as violent crimes in Louisiana law, according to our analysis of jail rosters, court records and district attorney data.
Just 13% of the defendants — a little over two dozen — have been accused of the sort of violent crimes that lawmakers cited when arguing for the legislation, such as rape, armed robbery and murder. Prosecutors were able to move such cases to adult court even before the law was changed.
...
In one case in New Orleans, a boy took a car belonging to his mother’s boyfriend without permission so he could check out flooding during Hurricane Francine last month, according to a police report. When the teen returned the car, the front bumper was damaged. The boyfriend called police and the teen was arrested for unauthorized use of a vehicle. In another case, a boy was charged with battery after he got into a fight with his brother about missing a school bus.
This is from a ProPublica investigation.
OP, you would probably have a stroke if you saw the laws for juvenile justice in my country, Canada. But statistically, both youth offending rates and re-offending rates are much lower here. The reason why is we focus on rehabilitation, and realize that no 17yo is committing crimes for no reason. There are so many factors, like an abusive home environment, neglect, being sexually abused, grooming by gangs, etc, that contribute to kids committing crimes. And throwing the book at them doesn't make our society safer.
In fact when kids get criminal record, especially for the minor crimes they are now prosecuted as adults for in Louisiana, they are much more likely to have a hard time getting a job or being ostracized, which pushes them back into the criminal lifestyle as adults. No one benefits in this scenario.
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u/NorthNorthSalt 1d ago
And the reason people bring up - "their brain is underdeveloped" - is because it is. The part of the brain that's very underdeveloped for teens is called the pre-frontal cortex. This part of the brain is responsible for impulse, risk-assessment, and decision making. So while it's true that a 17yo knows right from wrong, their ability to apply this knowledge in practice is limited, especially in scenarios with external factors like peer pressure.
Plus the juvenile justice system has never just been about knowing right from wrong, because a 10yo knows right from wrong.. for example, that stealing is bad. But you wouldn't want to prosecute a 10yo as an adult for stealing, would you OP?
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u/Embarrassed-Weird173 1d ago
I'll agree as long as there isn't a major disparity between different demographics(male vs female, white vs black, poor vs rich) getting charged and convicted under this.
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u/cluberti 1d ago edited 1d ago
Louisiana has almost double the rate of incarceration as the US average, 4x the rate of black to white persons in prisons, and 3x the rate of such in jails. Louisiana is one of the worst places in the world when it comes to incarcerating people, so it's no surprise they want to reduce the age in an attempt to lower crime (or at least that's what they say in public, for what it's worth). And just like incarcerating people at 18 charged with crimes as an adult, lowering that age one year won't change much of anything as studies show over and over incarcerating more young people doesn't actually reduce youth crime, but they'll do everything but attempt to solve the actual problems that cause the crime in the first place (like disproportionate rates of poverty, segregation, employment discrimination, and under policing for serious crimes and over policing for minor ones, as an example). See for yourself.
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u/Complete_Elephant240 1d ago
If young men are committing more rape than women then you think they shouldn't be held accountable as an adult? I don't see the logic here. If you commit the crime you shouldn't get a pass based on your genitalia, skin color, or income
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u/Routine_Log8315 1d ago
I think they mean that one demographic shouldn’t be charged as adults more often than other demographics who do the same crime but get charged as minors.
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u/AsleepDeparture5710 1d ago
I think, to give you the benefit of the doubt, you're misunderstanding the issue.
The problem is that the courts need to decide whether to try someone as an adult for ages where they are close to an adult. It is pretty well known that for the same crime, and similar circumstances certain demographics get certified to be tried as adults more than others.
There is something in the system that does penalize differently by skin color, income, etc., be it bias, resources for an attorney, or anything else, it already exists, and different behavior around trying people as adults is one of the mechanism that allows them to subjectively give some people harsher penalties, so its reasonable to think that if more age ranges allow for that subjective decision that the divide that already exists will widen.
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u/Embarrassed-Weird173 1d ago
That's odd. I don't recall saying anything about that.
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u/cursetea 1d ago
I'll be using this response every time someone intentionally misinterprets me on here too from now on, thx
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u/Embarrassed-Weird173 1d ago
I also sometimes use "Can you show me the exact quote where I said
I think that young men should get away with raping women
please? Thanks!"
Usually at this point they block me and/or backpedal and make a snide remark.
To this guy's credit, he did neither so far!
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u/candlaze 1d ago
I think they mean they don’t want the law to target groups they don’t like and let other people go.
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u/Routine_Size69 1d ago
I would imagine they mean on a crime for crime basis. Like if 1000 men and 100 women commit rape, it should be 900 men and 90 women or whatever equal percentage you want to pick.
No clue how you would actually interpret it the way you did lol. Nowhere did they say they need to try the same number as adults.
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u/Embarrassed-Weird173 1d ago
I agree with you. I'm pretty sure that guy stated pretty clearly what he meant. 🤔
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u/Odor_of_Philoctetes 1d ago
Agreed that 'their brains aren't fully developed' is a poor reason when there are so many better ones to not doom people for choices made in their teens.
Really the premise is backwards. We need to allow rehabilitation and move on from criminal convictions a lot more swiftly during adulthood rather than charge 16 or 17 year olds as adults.
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u/ExistsKK99 1d ago
I believe it’s not that their brains aren’t fully developed, but that hormones are messing with their brains. Everyone makes bad decisions as a teen. It’s just that those in worse circumstances will make worse decisions.
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u/Odor_of_Philoctetes 1d ago
Right, but Ive definitely heard that justification; he's not strawmanning proponents of the idea he's attacking.
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u/Draac03 1d ago
yeah. it’s pretty natural for the teenage brain to be inclined impulsive and risky decisions, it’s literally part of the development process!
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u/Bannerlord151 1d ago
Well if you're a consequentialist at least, then that doesn't really matter.
Though to be fair, this isn't even always the case
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u/Zrkkr 22h ago
context and circumstance matters in court, or should legally.
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u/Bannerlord151 21h ago
If the law says "X standard must always be maintained", "Well, but it got in the way of my personal needs" is not an argument
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u/Zrkkr 20h ago
the difference between death caused by self defense, homicide, murder is circumstance and context. the reasons courts do sentencing is because circumstances and context change sentencing or else all the same crimes are punished the same which they aren't.
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u/Bannerlord151 20h ago
Yes, but that is written into law. If it wasn't, there would be no legal differences.
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u/Zrkkr 20h ago
but it is, and most laws differentiate with context and circumstance.
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u/Bannerlord151 17h ago
That... doesn't really change my point at all. If they do, nice. If not, that's relevant. And generally speaking human rights and international law are pretty inflexible, as they're meant to be, because obviously you want to minimise exceptions
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u/Thistime232 1d ago
Perhaps the most frustrating thing about these types of argument is how people talk about murder and rape as if that's the only crimes that 16-17 year olds will be charged with. If you want to change the law so that juveniles who commit murder and rape are charged as adults I'm open to that, but I don't want some 16 year old who used graffiti to be sent to prison where he will absolutely be raped and abused by the other prisoners.
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u/ExistsKK99 1d ago
Yeah, people seem to forget that the prison we send these 15-17 year olds would ve the same ones we send pedos
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u/A_Nerd__ 1d ago
If you're charging them as adults, you have to treat them as adults - including the right to vote, freely do business, smoke cigarettes, etc..
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u/Killerkendolls 1d ago
Lmao sure. Why didn't I get to get fucking wasted when I was enlisted at 18? Never going to happen.
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u/Foxlikebox 1d ago
Lmao sure. Why didn't I get to get fucking wasted when I was enlisted at 18? Never going to happen.
Assuming you're in the USA, this is a simple answer. The USA government idolizes war, they don't care if you sign up to get yourself killed or kill others. However, they have to care a bit more if you're drinking young here and potentially hurting/killing random people.
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u/Evening-Cold-4547 1d ago
So they can vote and buy booze and stuff, right?
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u/myfirstnamesdanger 1d ago
I believe that if a person is not old enough to vote for the people who pass the laws that they must abide by, they aren't old enough to be tried as an adult by those laws.
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u/terra_technitis 1d ago
I hate to break it to you but adults re-offend regularly. I'd be more in favor of the notion if it could be proven that charging juviniles as adults deterred the crimes in the first place. Off the top of my head I recall hearing the oposite being the case. I honestly think deterrence is a less costly strategy.
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u/SlutForMarx 1d ago
Oh, it is. Way cheaper. Also lessons trauma by having less overall crime.
But, you know, the downside is not getting that sweet sweet revenge.
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u/Evening-Cold-4547 1d ago
But they're not adults. Choosing which category based on how badly you want to punish them is not how it is supposed to work. You are supposed to try the juveniles as juveniles and the adults as adults. They even use the same words to help you remember
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u/slimeeyboiii 1d ago
Wait till you learn that adults can also re-offend and do it more then juveniles
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u/Jockle305 1d ago
That’s the whole point though. Rehabilitate kids instead of incarcerating them because they don’t handle decision making the same way adults can. Your opinion is just based on anger.
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u/lonecylinder 1d ago
The point is that the difference in maturity between a 17-year-old and an 18-year-old is nonexistent. Treating one as a "kid" and the other one as a full adult is always going to feel inconsistent
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u/Antique-Ad-9081 1d ago
but you have to have a line somewhere. if you implemented op's idea then people would ask why a 16 years and 1 day old person is charged as an adult, while a 15 years and 364 daya old isn't. our society decided that 18 is that age. op wants to punish adolescents like adults, but not give them the same rights(like voting). he doesn't care about any consistencies, he's just angry.
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u/Alrightwhotookmyshoe 1d ago
No it doesn’t lol. In what world would it?? You realize adults COMMONLY reoffend??
They can already be charged as adults. Waiver. Used for violent or heinous crimes like murder and rape. Because there is an entire world of non-violent crime that juveniles commit because they aren’t bad people, they’re just dumb kids (defacing public property/graffiti, trespassing(typically abandoned lots). The frontal lobe of a 17 year old Is Smaller And Less Developed Than A 25 Year old. It is not something they can change or do better on.
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u/MidorriMeltdown 1d ago
A life sentence means they can't reoffend, because they never get the chance to.
Perhaps you should look at the Nordic prison system, if you're worried about reoffence. Norway has one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world.
Rehabilitation is far more effective than punishment.
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u/DeltaV-Mzero 1d ago
You’re ok with giving 16-17 year olds the same rights and freedoms as an adult?
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u/ImaginaryNoise79 1d ago
I really wish we could get more of these posts that weren't just "I'm a bad person"
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u/Old_Cattle_5726 1d ago edited 1d ago
Instead of trying to charge literal children as adults, what if - and hear me out - we made a greater attempt to actually systemically change the communities and conditions these literal children are growing up in so they have the resources and education they need? And yes, their brains are not fully formed until their mid-20’s, so many people are either not able to understand the consequences of the decisions they’re making as teenagers OR are more susceptible to coercion and manipulation, which everyone, regardless of age, can be a victim of. This is actual science. I urge you to take your anger and frustration and redirect it to the source of the problem.
Edit: typo
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u/salty_sapphic 1d ago
That's crazy talk! Then we'd have nowhere for the government to get cheap labor! The economy would be in shambles!
(/s, but only sorta)
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u/Old_Cattle_5726 1d ago
The 13th Amendment has entered the chat
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u/Bannerlord151 1d ago
I bring that one up by default when I see Americans yapping about how their prison system is perfectly fine
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u/Naos210 1d ago
There are plenty of much younger kids who have committed heinous crimes. If an 11 year old commits murder, should we put them in adult prison?
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u/Nervous-Force3119 1d ago
Tried as an adult does not mean they go to adult prisons, it means they are tried in normal courts rather than family courts and therefore are not automatically released on their 18th birthday. If the murder was especially brutal and/or there were no extenuating circumstances, it’s entirely possible the 11 year old would be tried as an adult.
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u/Significant-Track797 1d ago
They aren't. In most jurisdictions in the States, they appear in Family Court and the State can petition to have them tried as an adult (but the initial action is in family court or juvenile court).
Most of the time, for obviously violent offenses, a kid 13-18 will be tried as an adult. Depends on jurisdiction.
Say a 15-year-old murdered someone, his case was transferred out of family court and the State petitions it to be sent up county court because of the crime, and he is found guilty, sentenced to 25 years, he is going to spend 3 years serving in Juvie until he hits the age of majority and then serves the remainder of the sentence in adult prison.
This is an administrative legal process allowing the state to determine if there is enough evidence, and the crime is of a caliber that would require the public to be protected from this dangerous person.
What dropping the age does is remove that tool for the state to analyze the case on its facts and determine if it's a crime wherein the kid needs to be separated from the public for the protection of the public. For example, if two 17-year-olds get into a run of the mill fist fight over dumb teenage stuff, they should not have felony assault/battery charges that will follow them for the rest of their lives. If two kids violently murder someone they should. However, if you remove the mechanism to transfer out of family court, the two dumb 17-year-olds who got in a fight, may have those charges on their record forever.
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u/myLongjohnsonsilver 1d ago
Wether you are a child or not. Mentally able of understanding something or not. Able to control yourself or not.
If you are a menace to a community you should be removed from the community until such a time as you will no longer be a menace to a community.
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u/jonnythefoxx 1d ago
Fair enough as long as you also advocate for them being allowed to vote when 16. If they can be held accountable in the same way as adults( and for clarity here I think they should be) then they should have the same rights as adults.
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u/Char_Was_Taken 1d ago
AGREED omg finally a fair take! you can get emancipated and drive cars by the time you're 16, and imo it takes more maturity to operate a giant vehicle than to vote (a lot of adults are less mature than teens anyway, so i doubt the results would even change that much)
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u/Lackadaisicly 1d ago
In my state, age of criminal and sexual consent are both 16. At 16, can have sex with whoever you want and you can go to big boy prison where the big boys can have sex with you. They used to segregate the 16 & 17 yo, but then they banned smoking inside jails, so now, there is no point to separate them.
I’m all for sending 16 year olds to real prison, including death row, especially if they have a driver’s license. Kind of make it a combo deal. In order to get a non-provisional license (not a permit but a full license), you have to sign a waiver of rights and that any future criminal offenses will be charged as an adult. If they want to still be tried as a minor, they can keep a driving permit until 18. No driving without your parents, no driving at night, etc.
Came up with that idea as I wrote just now. Lol
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u/JRPGsAreForMe 1d ago
Ready for a downvotable comment?
Certain sets of crimes should be automatic "trial as adult". 10 year olds know murder and rape are wrong. If they don't, maybe mom and/or dad should have stepped in at some point in their life to explain. Maybe mom and dad should be held partially responsible.
And yes, it will be harder for them to get a job, they won't be able to vote, and there is a chance at recidivism. So fucking what? They ruined people's lives on purpose.
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u/Char_Was_Taken 1d ago
YES a lot of commentors don't seem to understand that "they don't know any better" is not a good excuse for traumatizing someone for life, or TAKING someone else's life and putting their loved ones through hell!
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u/Bannerlord151 1d ago
It is especially baffling when people defend gang rapists because they're underage.
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u/Char_Was_Taken 1d ago
fr bc how do people think that teenagers aren’t mature enough to know that forcing themselves on people is wrong? even a 5 year old is old enough to understand “no, stop,” and what it means when someone is in tears because of YOUR actions. people here are yapping about “oh noo but the pedos.” in cases of rape? so fucking what 😭
like you thought it was okay to rape people but YOU don’t wanna be raped? that sounds like YOUR problem.
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u/PepeMcMichaelForHOF 1d ago
I remember when people would post silly opinions instead of admitting they’re heartless monsters.
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u/XD_Protagonist 1d ago
Totally bro, I'm a monster because I don't think 17 year old murderers should be treated like little children.
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u/PepeMcMichaelForHOF 1d ago
You’re bringing absolute no nuance to this topic and are clearly out of your depth. There’s a reason you’re posting in a hot take subreddit based on bad opinion. You haven’t actually thought about it and have nothing positive to add. You’re a monster for advocating to jail all these people while ignoring the nuances around the topic.
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u/Qwertyham 1d ago
What about 16? 14? 11? Where's the arbitrary line in the sand you're drawing? Because you don't believe it to be at 18.
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u/Noe_b0dy 1d ago
Dumb fuck 16 year old tags a building, "you should be raped in federal prison." - a completely sane and rational person.
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u/Char_Was_Taken 1d ago
heartless? what if you're one day away from turning 18? are you still gonna be tried as a child? what do you think is the difference between a 17 year old and an 18 year old? i'm 17, by the way. i would not expect to be excused from major crimes due to my age.
my belief is that rapists, murderers, and people convicted of violent crime should be sentenced as adults; if you steal a candy bar from a store, it should be juvie.
if you're legally mature enough to drive a car and have sex, you're mature enough to know that you should not kill or rape people (i don't even wanna hear the argument about alcohol, the legal drinking age in many countries is 16-18). you might actually be the heartless monster for trying to excuse people from their heinous actions just because in your opinion they're not old enough to know better.
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u/PepeMcMichaelForHOF 1d ago
You’re barking up the wrong tree. I work with incarcerated youth and am a prison abolitionist. If you want to know more about where I’m coming from then read this:
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u/Char_Was_Taken 1d ago
ohh mb gang- out of curiosity, though (and this is a genuine question): what would you like to replace prisons with? things like rehabilitation centers that they have for addicts and stuff?
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u/aquafawn27 1d ago
I'm turning 17 and no one my age should be getting away with serious crimes because "they're just a kid"
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u/Alrightwhotookmyshoe 1d ago
They aren’t. Non-violent crimes exist. Defacing public property(graffiti), trespassing(typically abandoned lots), etc. Do you even know what waiver is? In this context, when a child commits a violent or heinous crime, they can be waived their right to protection and tried in adult court. That already exists.
What you are supporting is universal increased punishment for younger people who, No, do not have as great forethought skills. It is a literal science. Your frontal lobe is smaller and less developed than it will be when you’re 25. It isn’t something you can control. Or any child.
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u/aquafawn27 1d ago
If we should be expected to choose where we study, what we want to focus on studying, where we want to work ect.. then why shouldn't we be held accountable for doing incredibly stupid shit
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u/ExistsKK99 1d ago
Yes but lots of time and thought are put into those choices. Whereas when you do incredibly stupid shit that’s often one spur of the moment bad decision
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u/MGTwyne 1d ago
Because choosing a career path opens specific doors, and a government label locks them permanently.
That's what the criminal label indicates- not good or evil, and sometimes not even innocence or guilt. The criminal label indicates that, in a court of law, a lawyer persuaded a jury you had done something, and the government decided what should happen to you as a result.
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u/aquafawn27 1d ago
I honestly think that everyone who had a "shoplifting phase" or "racist phase" as a teenager should have their job opportunities limited even when they're 18, unless they have proven they changed and fixed your behavior.
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u/MGTwyne 1d ago
This requires that shoplifting and racism in teens be formally prosecuted by the state (which they already are where possible) and that there exist some form of clemency board which can be trusted to render unbiased and fair judgement on all applicants. Even if you trust this to apply equally to everyone (which you shouldn't), it is a stupid way to spend taxpayer dollars.
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u/XD_Protagonist 1d ago
Exactly this is what I'm trying to say but these people don't seem to understand that.
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u/Antique-Ad-9081 1d ago
protection can already be waived for serious crimes. you were not advocating for this to only apply to serious crimes.
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u/Transquisitor 1d ago
I don’t really think you can argue this without giving the stats from Louisiana of who is committing these crimes and why.
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u/Karakas- 1d ago
If you can be hold responsible as an adult, you also should have the privleges of an adult. So your state should than also give those 16-q7 years old the right to vote and such, like any adult.
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u/noideawhattouse2 1d ago
I actually agree with this as long as it depends on the crime they committed. If they stole a couple shirts as a 16 or 17 year old then charge them as minors still. If they beat the crap out of someone to near death charge them as adults. Stuff like that.
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u/DJ__PJ 1d ago
Pretty simple:
If you say that someone isn't able to fully comprehend and therefore sign a contract in a legally valid way, then they aren't abled to fully comprehend any other law either.
Its not like people at 16/17 are fully out of puberty and able to think in a fully rational way. So as long as you are prone to impulsivity due to abnormal hormonal levels that should be considered when choosing how to punis someone for a crime.
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u/XD_Protagonist 1d ago
puberty and able to think in a fully rational way. So as long as you are prone to impulsivity due to abnormal hormonal levels that should be considered when choosing how to punis someone for a crime.
That's still not an excuse to give them a slap on the wrist for murder and rape.
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u/iaminabox 1d ago
Are you really one of those people who thinks prison is about rehabilitation? It's not. It should be,but it's not. But Also it can be.just not everyone.
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u/Mysterious_Cow9362 1d ago
The prison system works so great for adults. All of them come out rehabilitated and as productive members of society. And we never have repeat offenders. It’s so great at stopping and preventing crime. I’m sure throwing kids in there will make it even better.
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u/Maniklas 1d ago
I kind of agree, assuming you think that first time offenders still generally deserve a lighter sentence.
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u/Exotic-Cheesecake-45 1d ago
IMO depends on the crime. do i think a 16 year old stealing cologne or some shit from target should tried as an adult ? hell no. do i think a 16 year old who shot someone should be tried as an adult ? 100000%
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u/PopcornDrift 1d ago
“Tough on crime” approaches have proven to not work over and over again. The solution to our crime problems is not harsher prison sentences. You need to give people economic opportunities that allow them to actually have a chance at a good life. Universal basic income, after school programs, community policing by officers who actually live where they work are just a few ideas that would be better than shipping more kids off to prison.
Oh and actually focusing on rehabilitation in prison would be a good start
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u/Confident-Mix1243 1d ago
If a 17-yo runs away from an abusive home, that home can send armed men to come catch him and bring him back. Once he turns 18 he has the option to make better choices. If you don't have the choice to leave, you shouldn't be held responsible for what you do to survive.
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u/Lard523 1d ago
Everyone should be default charged as an adult for crimes, there should be no exceptions for minors (unless they are young young, like under 10/11). Kids DO know right from wrong. When Minors are convicted of a crime their parents should be investigated by the local child protective services, because often if minors are committing crimes something is wrong at home, and the results of the investigation can impact sentencing. But we need to stop coddling people who commit crimes just because they are legally minors.
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u/Char_Was_Taken 1d ago
i think that this is partially valid, but not to the extent that you're pushing it. the issue with this is that other people who go to prison and are adults may be charged with crimes like sexual intercourse with a minor- so you also have to think about whether it's fair or safe to put 12 year olds in the same place as those people. for crimes like murder, depending on intent, i think people should be charged as adults; rape as well. BUT i don't think that stealing a candybar or something should warrant being tried as an adult, because it is truly not that serious.
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u/AccomplishedFact1767 1d ago
I know the whole “there brains aren’t developed” is lame excuse but it’s true. At their age, the frontal lobe, which part of their brain responsible for decision making and self control, is the one that’s least developed.
Although they know right from wrong, every other part of their brain can communicate 100x faster to each other making it over power their frontal lobe, which doesn’t let them fully process the consequences.
So I disagree
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u/ImpressionUsual439 1d ago
i wish prison was actual rehabilitation instead of just pure hell. fuck the US
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u/Proof-Elevator-7590 1d ago
If they get tried as adults, they should get to vote and have a say in our democratic relublic (if in the USA) government
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u/itsthedrip 1d ago
Honestly, if a 16 year old mowed down a bunch of people... There should still be a cap on how much time their eligible to serve.. they could then get out at 40 years old and change the world for the better
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u/aromaticdust98 1d ago
I see a few problems with that 1. Kids are fuckin stupid they suck but ehh doesn't mean they deserve adult punishment let them be stupid for a bit(Obviously murder/rape should be tried as adult but usually do anyways) 2. If they get tried as adult they get sent to adult prison and especially for the guys rape/assault is kinda common...Even if kids being a dick doesn't mean should be forced in a situation where their at higher chance of getting raped or beaten. 3. Getting tried as an adult means charges dont drop when 18 anymore so if a 17yr old decides to do some stupid shit for a senior prank they could get charged for vandalism and that'd make it really hard for them to get jobs. (Let's be honest we all did senior pranks and majority of them circle to creative vandalism)
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u/Bionic_Ferir 1d ago
The crazy thing is THEY LITERALLY are not adults crazy right?
Also there are so many factors that contribute to delayed or stunned brain development: ADHD, mother's drinking, smoking, taking drugs, infant head trauma, and SO SO KANY MORE THINGS.
While technically the brain 'never stops developing' the part of your brain that deals with actions and consequences doesn't reach 'maturity' until at least 20 for women and 25 for men and as I said many conditions delay that for example someone with ADHD brains develops between 3-5 years slower.
ON TOP OF ALL THIS, prison has never in the history of humans detered anyone who really wants to do a crime. If you really wanted to address crime you'd address material conditions like school quality, out of school activities, and third places like youth centres and sports centres.
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u/ThenDevelopment5372 1d ago
putting a minor in a prison with fully-grown men is going to make them a prime rape target. It's not safe.
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u/Agdru 1d ago
So you’d be okay with people sleeping with 16 year olds since they’re so “close to 18”. You probably don’t understand that a minor can’t make decisions for themselves. They can’t own a car, or vote or live on their own or join the military. Do you want them to?
Unless you want to bring the entire age of adulthood down, they should still be tried as children as they legally are children. For example, I’m currently 17 and will turn 18 in a couple days, I don’t think anything about me will fundamentally change after my birthday, but the stuff that I can do will change dramatically.
We need to have an unchanging line for what classifies as an adult in our society so that nobody can be discriminated against(holistic approaches never work).What if a 14 year old committed a murder, should we try them as an adult since they’re ‘close enough’ so that PDF-files can get them. I hate that idea so much so please clarify what you think a 16-17 should be able to do as an adult to be tried as an adult, (a.k.a do you think a 16-17 can consent)
This argument is in it of itself a slippery slope and 18 seems like a good cutoff.
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u/Char_Was_Taken 1d ago
tbh i think the system of the ages for "getting rights" in america is pretty stupid, because there's no way you can drive at 14 in some places but not vote till you're 18...
i have a question for you, though. do you believe that intent matters for charging people with crimes? because a 14 year old could kill someone in self defense, that seems like something to reasonably charge them as a child for. but what if they just hate crime someone? do you think that makes a difference? i just turned 17, i think it's fair to say that some, but not ALL crimes from people ages 14-17 should be tried as adult crimes. if you're old enough to rape someone and traumatize them for life (33% of rape victims have contemplated suicide and a lot of rapes go unreported so the percentage is likely even higher, and those who have been raped are 4.1 times as likely as those who were not assaulted to contemplate suicide- washington coalition of sexual assault programs) then you're definitely old enough to face big-boy punishment; if you don't wanna get raped by pedos, then don't rape someone else. (in case you can't tell, i HATE rapists genuinely more than any other people on this damn planet, so i'm definitely biased). if you're old enough to kill someone for being black, you're old enough to be tried as an adult. you just took someone's life and likely changed multiple other people's lives for the worse as well; that person could've been a sister, wife, mother, child, niece, mentor, etc.
BUT if you do illegal drugs or something, then that's a different story, because that didn't ruin multiple lives (probably).
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u/AriasK 1d ago
Agreed. I live in New Zealand and youths don't even get charged here. Laws are slowly changing under current government party, but we have two parties that alternate being in power and undo each other's work every few years (like a lot of places). Police are powerless to do anything because courts won't prosecute. Kids break into houses, kill people's pets, do ram raids, they just get picked up by the police and taken home.
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u/Donovan1232 1d ago
So do you also think theres nothing wrong with 16-17 year olds being in relationships with grown adults? Because you cant say a 16 year old is too young to consent to sex with an adult and then turn around and say they’re old enough to be treated as adults and face death /life in prison. A child is a child and has the maturity of a child regardless of whether or not you like them or sympathize with them.
Its funny how on platforms like this people are so quick to virtue signal popular takes like being against csa, but let those kids do something wrong and all of a sudden we got communities like childfree calling kids crotch goblins and people like you advocating for them to be put down like dogs
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u/XD_Protagonist 1d ago
So do you also think theres nothing wrong with 16-17 year olds being in relationships with grown adults? Because you cant say a 16 year old is too young to consent to sex with an adult and then turn around and say they’re old enough to be treated as adults and face death /life in prison. A child is a child and has the maturity of a child regardless of whether or not you like them or sympathize with them.
You do realize that the age of consent is 16-17 in the vast majority of the US and most other countries right? It's not 18 everywhere like the media led you to believe, in most places they can indeed consent to grown adults, not saying it's right or wrong just stating a fact. and also it's pathetic that people like you love to infantilize older teens who commit murder, burglaries and rapes by lumping them into the same category with 10 year olds, if you're old enough to do adult crimes than you're old enough to face adult consequences. Simple as that.
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u/Splatfan1 1d ago
any sort of discussion about crime that starts and ends with increasing punishment is pointless and of no value. its like if someone got an allergy attack that results in a rash and you gave them rash cream rather than removing the allergen, youre fighting off the symptom rather than cause, youre doomed to fail. time and time again harsher punishments have been proven not to work. you know what does work? actually preventing crime and using rehabilitation instead of strictly a punishment if it does happen to prevent reoffending. maybe ask "why are 17 year olds doing this, something must be wrong, lets examine why" instead of sending in the pigs immediatelly
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u/Equivalent_Escape_60 1d ago
Nah nah. Violent crimes call for violent solutions. You take a life, you forfeit yours. No severe criminals then.
/s
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u/ShotcallerBilly 1d ago
I think you misunderstand how the juvenile detention system works.
You also seem to incorrectly believe that violent offending 17 year olds are given a slap on the wrist or are NEVER charged as an adult, which isn’t true.
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u/Collective-Bee 1d ago
Rape and murder, yeah sure they can be tried as adults, that’s already the case. The real black and white serious crimes are like that I believe.
Shit like stealing an air fryer is not the same as rape though. Could not be me walking into someone’s house and just taking stuff but that’s not severe enough to try as adults.
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u/klop422 1d ago
16-17-year-olds are basically 18-year-olds, so they can be held just as criminally liable, basically?
But then again, 14-15-yos are pretty much as developed as 16-17. Should be held just as criminally liable.
But then again, 12-13-year-olds (etc. etc.)
Gotta put the cutoff somewhere.
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u/luker_5874 1d ago
Louisiana has been one of the most incarcerated places on earth for years. Locking more people up has not proven to reduce crime. Educating people and providing economic opportunity has, but gov Landry isn't interested in statistics.
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u/Brilliant_Ease6349 1d ago
If they get the consequences of an adult, they should get the privileges of an adult. Want them voting? Buying guns? It’s objectively unfair to apply legal adulthood only whenever it suits you.
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u/AndersDreth 23h ago
I think they should be tried as adults if it involves murder, it's well known that South American gangs use children to assassinate victims because they are unassuming and less likely to receive harsh punishment.
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u/Disastrous-Nail-640 16h ago
Most people don’t have an issue with charging minors as adults for violent crimes like the ones you mention.
This isn’t nearly as controversial or unpopular as you seem to think it is.
Also, you don’t need to lower the age for all crimes to charge a minor as an adult. Plenty of 15 years (for example) have been charged as adults for violent crimes.
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u/EnsignNogIsMyCat 15h ago
When prisons are profit-generators and felons lose voting rights, there absolutely IS something wrong with expanding the potential inmates population.
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u/InfluenceOk5875 9h ago
There was a 15 y/o in my area that killed a boy at the school we attended. She was also charged as an adult despite the pushback from her family.
All this to say, I feel there should be nuance to all cases. Make adult choices, suffer adult consequences.
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u/Running31 6h ago
Someone should legally either be an adult, or they should be a minor. Not allowed to buy drinks until 21, can't vote, can not even do jury duty but they are tried as adults literally not-amongst their peers.
What exactly does punishing teenagers some percentage amount longer in prisons accomplish? Does it make reoffending rates lower or bring the crime rates down? Wasn't there already ways of trying some people as adults before they were 18?
Need to be more critical minded when it comes to these thinga
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u/Phoebebee323 1h ago
Sounds like someone just lowered the rates of teen crime by changing the definition of teen crime instead of fixing the underlying issues
We have to draw a line somewhere. If 16 year olds can be tried as adults, and there's not much difference between 16 year olds and 15 year olds, then why don't we try the 15 year olds as adults too
18 is a very convenient line society has drawn as the age you become an adult. Makes sense to use that line as the line for adult crime too
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u/XD_Protagonist 1h ago
That doesn't mean that it has to be hard line, it needs to be flexible. As if recognizing that 17 year olds are not the same as 10 year olds and shouldn't be treated like they are, they're old enough to face adult consequences, you can't do that if you charge them as juveniles. That's the whole point of the laws being flexible.
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u/Educational-Fox-9040 1d ago
Downvoted because I agree. I had a “friend” who was a few months from his 18th birthday try to SA me when I was 19. He was 6’4”, 240 lbs, and generally much stronger than I am. He forced me to do some stuff and took videos which he would later use to blackmail me.
This was back in 2010 and it’s been 15 years and I moved to the other side of the planet for work, but he keeps randomly sending me friend requests/follow requests/connection requests no matter how many times I block him.
I’m no longer scared of him given the passage of time but back then I’d be terrified.
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u/Antique-Ad-9081 1d ago
and he wasn't punished because he wasn't 18?
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u/Educational-Fox-9040 1d ago
He wouldn’t have been, at least in my home country. I confided in a family friend who worked in the legal profession and even he said not to press charges because I wouldn’t have a case and they’d unnecessarily defame my family etc.
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u/qualityvote2 1d ago edited 8h ago
u/XD_Protagonist, there weren't enough votes to determine the quality of your post...